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Author Topic: tempires: emple  (Read 6582 times)

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schadd

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2016, 06:50:22 pm »
0

alt:
garbage
trash
trash
                                                tidal wave
made out of garbage?
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2016, 06:52:47 pm »
+1

shadd IS e e cummings.



Gathering

it's all here. what are you doing with all this
anyway?
perhaps you keep them
for her

but
nobody
is a temple
for everyone
that follows

Temple

as is the temple marvelous
                                       from donald’s
hands which sent it forth
                               to trash upon the world

and the estate withers
            the copper crumbles
one by one
                                         trash flutters into the trash pile.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 06:54:03 pm by Seprix »
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Chris is me

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2016, 09:03:26 pm »
+6

I'm a super big fan of schadd's writing style and sense of humor, and I think the all lowercase text is essential to his aesthetic and delivery. I can elaborate on this more if someone doesn't get what I mean, but it feels kind of like Explaining The Joke in that deconstructing it kinda ruins it.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2016, 09:40:34 pm »
+5

I am a prescriptivist, but I still find schadd's writing style very pleasant.

I would say more, but I think we are supposed to be discussing temple in this thread?
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2016, 10:06:47 am »
0

Temple is okay, I guess
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2016, 10:15:37 am »
0

shadd IS e e cummings.



Gathering

it's all here. what are you doing with all this
anyway?
perhaps you keep them
for her

but
nobody
is a temple
for everyone
that follows

Temple

as is the temple marvelous
                                       from donald’s
hands which sent it forth
                               to trash upon the world

and the estate withers
            the copper crumbles
one by one
                                         trash flutters into the trash pile.


It is funny to see how people get bored by discussing cards that most of us haven't played yet  ;D

My position is: if somebody can't be bothered to take the time to write correctly, then I don't feel a pressing need to read the things they write. Eschewing capitalization and/or punctuation just automatically makes you seem less educated/intelligent.
And I also feel uncomfortable by reading schadd's posts.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2016, 11:34:29 am »
+1

I would say more, but I think we are supposed to be discussing temple in this thread?

We could talk about Schadd's temple. That wouldn't be technically cheating.


I can elaborate on this more if someone doesn't get what I mean, but it feels kind of like Explaining The Joke in that deconstructing it kinda ruins it.

But explaining the joke makes it funnier!
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JThorne

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2016, 12:43:16 pm »
+5

A trashing strategy question for the experts, which culminates in a Temple question:

Assume there's no junking in the kingdom. Assume there are engine pieces, and of those engine pieces, at least one of them is a possible BM-enabler (as many terminal draw engine-pieces are, also.) The presence (or quality) of the trashing available is going to determine what type of deck is going to outrace the others, correct? Maybe BM will be the best. Maybe an engine which manages to reliably get a province a turn will be the best plan. Maybe you'll get reliable double-province buys. Maybe you'll be able to pull off a mega-turn. The quality of trashing has a lot to do with how much you build before greening because of the exponential growth possible after drawing your whole deck, which can usually only reasonably be accomplished with at least some trashing.

There are some trashers that are absolutely no-brainers when it comes to deciding whether there's enough trashing to get really thin. Chapel, Steward and Remake are the big three, right? They're all trash-twos or better that you can open with, and Steward and Remake even come with upside. Done deal. You see any of these cards, you go thin or go home.

Other trashers are trickier. Count is brilliant, but it's a $5. And Forge says "hi", but $7?! You better have a plan. (Not a Plan. Different thing. Also a trasher.) These may not be cards where you can plan to get thin early then build up. You'll have to do some building as you go and thin along the way because you'll have to at least be able to spike $5. Same with Junk Dealer, who has the added wrinkle of being good in multiples because it's non-terminal.

But the difference between a trash-2 and a trash-1 is significant. If you open Steward/Something, after your first reshuffle your deck will get smaller, because you'll probably trash two cards, then buy one card, trash two, buy one, etc. With a trash-1, your deck never gets smaller: trash one, buy one, trash one, buy one. The math is simple.

There are two basic consequences of this simple math, if I've been playing anything remotely like correctly: 1. You often only need a single copy of a trash-2 or better to get thin. 2. You need at least two copies of a trash-1 or you simply cannot get thin.

That starts begging the question: Of the trash-ones, which will actually WORK to thin your deck if you buy multiples and trash aggressively? Is it ever the right play to open Trade Route/Trade Route? Raze/Raze? Ratcatcher/Ratchatcher? Lookout/Lookout? Forager/Forager? Should you only buy multiple trash-ones that quickly if they're not terminal? Is it more important to open trash-one/$2-generator if there's a critical power-$5 and buy another trash-one later?

I'm asking this question to get opinions from experienced players, because there may be those who say that you just can't get thin fast enough with a terminal trash-one like Trade Route so don't even try it or you'll lose to BM every time.

This is the question that leads us to where Temple stands.

First of all, it's almost never a trash-three, so forget about living that dream. But early on is it more like a trash-one (Copper) or a trash-two (Copper/Estate)? My experience so far is that it plays MUCH more like Trade Route than Steward or Remake. You pretty much have to buy two to get thin, which is why it's nice that it comes with some spare VP for buying them. However, unlike many trashers it doesn't come with any other upside that helps you at the moment you play it, which is part of what makes it slow. No coin. No cards. No actions. No sifting. No +buy. Part of the brilliance of Steward and Remake is that they both add economy as well as trashing. Raze sifts and is non-terminal. Forager adds coin and is non-terminal. Temple is utterly unhelpful.

But there's still something funny about it. It costs $4. Why? A huge number of the other trash-ones cost $3 or less (Trade Route/Raze/Forager/etc.) Did the playtesting reveal that the card was overpowered at $3? If so, it may be that the Alt+VP aspect of this card might actually be MORE important than the trashing.

That's all I've got. Lots of questions about existing trashers that I hope will help answer where this card fits in the grand scheme of things.

(Grand Scheme: $4 +1 card, +1 action, Topdeck two action cards from play during clean-up __ You can't buy it with copper in play.)
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2016, 01:06:33 pm »
0

You can thin with a single trash-1.  You trash 1 junk and buy 1 good card, so eventually you are out of junk and just have good cards.  Your deck can get smaller if you buy nothing (not recommended) or cantrips (effectively nothing, but a good kind).

Trade Route can work sometimes. It depends a lot on the other components on the board, but sometimes you'll take any trashing you can.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2016, 01:31:28 pm »
+1

A trashing strategy question for the experts, which culminates in a Temple question:

Assume there's no junking in the kingdom. Assume there are engine pieces, and of those engine pieces, at least one of them is a possible BM-enabler (as many terminal draw engine-pieces are, also.) The presence (or quality) of the trashing available is going to determine what type of deck is going to outrace the others, correct? Maybe BM will be the best. Maybe an engine which manages to reliably get a province a turn will be the best plan. Maybe you'll get reliable double-province buys. Maybe you'll be able to pull off a mega-turn. The quality of trashing has a lot to do with how much you build before greening because of the exponential growth possible after drawing your whole deck, which can usually only reasonably be accomplished with at least some trashing.

There are some trashers that are absolutely no-brainers when it comes to deciding whether there's enough trashing to get really thin. Chapel, Steward and Remake are the big three, right? They're all trash-twos or better that you can open with, and Steward and Remake even come with upside. Done deal. You see any of these cards, you go thin or go home.

Other trashers are trickier. Count is brilliant, but it's a $5. And Forge says "hi", but $7?! You better have a plan. (Not a Plan. Different thing. Also a trasher.) These may not be cards where you can plan to get thin early then build up. You'll have to do some building as you go and thin along the way because you'll have to at least be able to spike $5. Same with Junk Dealer, who has the added wrinkle of being good in multiples because it's non-terminal.

Sounds right so far
But the difference between a trash-2 and a trash-1 is significant. If you open Steward/Something, after your first reshuffle your deck will get smaller, because you'll probably trash two cards, then buy one card, trash two, buy one, etc. With a trash-1, your deck never gets smaller: trash one, buy one, trash one, buy one. The math is simple.

There are two basic consequences of this simple math, if I've been playing anything remotely like correctly: 1. You often only need a single copy of a trash-2 or better to get thin. 2. You need at least two copies of a trash-1 or you simply cannot get thin.

That is not really correct. A deck consisting of 5starting cards +Steward is euqally thin as a deck consisting of 5starting cards, 10Great Halls and a trasher that trashes single cards. "Thin" is not about decksize, but about the amount of stopcards in your deck. (Edgecases may apply)
That starts begging the question: Of the trash-ones, which will actually WORK to thin your deck if you buy multiples and trash aggressively? Is it ever the right play to open Trade Route/Trade Route? Raze/Raze? Ratcatcher/Ratchatcher? Lookout/Lookout? Forager/Forager? Should you only buy multiple trash-ones that quickly if they're not terminal? Is it more important to open trash-one/$2-generator if there's a critical power-$5 and buy another trash-one later?

Forager/Forager or Lookout/Lookout are pretty good openings without a key $5. Getting a second trasher on the second shuffle is also decent otherwise. Razes and Ratchatchers can be bought on duds as their opportunity cost is mostly neglible.
I'm asking this question to get opinions from experienced players, because there may be those who say that you just can't get thin fast enough with a terminal trash-one like Trade Route so don't even try it or you'll lose to BM every time.

I think you said this somewhere else aswell, but trashing is not the only variable in engine vs bm. Usually this is called payload on this forum and can consist of any cards that benefit from being played more often. Your assessement here is only correct if the only payload is Gold, which would be pretty bad. But playing a Militia, Goons, Haggler, Jester or Butcher every turn may mean that buiding an engine is good enough that even slow trashing is worth it. If the payload, which as stated before can be anything from gaining to attacks is strong enough is one of the questions you have to ask yourself before every game. Don't worry about being wrong here, you'll even see pros being hilariously wrong from time to time.
This is the question that leads us to where Temple stands.

First of all, it's almost never a trash-three, so forget about living that dream. But early on is it more like a trash-one (Copper) or a trash-two (Copper/Estate)? My experience so far is that it plays MUCH more like Trade Route than Steward or Remake. You pretty much have to buy two to get thin, which is why it's nice that it comes with some spare VP for buying them. However, unlike many trashers it doesn't come with any other upside that helps you at the moment you play it, which is part of what makes it slow. No coin. No cards. No actions. No sifting. No +buy. Part of the brilliance of Steward and Remake is that they both add economy as well as trashing. Raze sifts and is non-terminal. Forager adds coin and is non-terminal. Temple is utterly unhelpful.

I think it's pretty likely that you can trash two cards atleast on this first shuffle which is pretty nice. Any mathematicians around here who can calculate the %? :) Don't forget that trashing itself is also an upside, as is the ~2VP you can get per play (assuming a mirror).
If you're other buys are sifting/draw, your Temple plays in later shuffles are also likely to trash two cards.

Obviously I don't have much a experience with the card so I can't really say how this compares to other trashers, but it didn't feel that bad to me, definitely not as bad as TR.

But there's still something funny about it. It costs $4. Why? A huge number of the other trash-ones cost $3 or less (Trade Route/Raze/Forager/etc.) Did the playtesting reveal that the card was overpowered at $3? If so, it may be that the Alt+VP aspect of this card might actually be MORE important than the trashing.

That's all I've got. Lots of questions about existing trashers that I hope will help answer where this card fits in the grand scheme of things.

(Grand Scheme: $4 +1 card, +1 action, Topdeck two action cards from play during clean-up __ You can't buy it with copper in play.)

Yeah, VP chips are pretty valuable. The difference between 3 and 4 is also not very important anyway other than the fact that you can't open double Temple.
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Chris is me

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2016, 01:48:04 pm »
0

I think the card costs $4 not because it is too good at $3, but to dissuade players from getting the second one early. It means you can't open Temple / Temple. It's a design choice to influence how Temple games play out.

I see it as - you have one until you're out or almost out of Estates, then you buy the second one to get rid of Coppers faster and to pick up 3-6 VP. If you buy two right away, like you could if it was $3, then you'd miss out on a lot of VP.

It's never going to be an elite thinner. But light to moderate trashing is pretty good in a lot of cases.
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trivialknot

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2016, 02:09:28 pm »
+3


I think it's pretty likely that you can trash two cards atleast on this first shuffle which is pretty nice. Any mathematicians around here who can calculate the %? :) Don't forget that trashing itself is also an upside, as is the ~2VP you can get per play (assuming a mirror).
If you're other buys are sifting/draw, your Temple plays in later shuffles are also likely to trash two cards.
If you buy Temple/Silver, there's about 72% chance of drawing the Temple with copper and estate on T3/T4.  And for what it's worth, drawing Temple + 4 copper is bad, but it would have been bad to draw Steward + 4 copper too.

IMO, the $4 cost of Temple is a major downside, because it matters in the opening, which is usually when you want your trashers.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2016, 02:26:18 pm »
0

Now that I think about it, if Temple cost $3, it would often lead to a rush on Temples.  If even one person decided to open double Temple, the VP would accumulate fairly quickly, causing people to buy even more Temples.  I can see why $4 is the better design choice.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2016, 12:19:57 am »
0

I lost a game yesterday to someone who made the surprising-seeming choice to just buy Temples basically every turn—any time there was at least one VP on the pile she'd gain one. Obviously she thinned her deck super fast, and then when she drew Temples dead she'd buy Advance to convert one into a Bustling Village or something. It helped that it was a 3-player game so piles went down a little faster than usual; she won on piling out Temple, Villa, and Bustling Village after spending the game building up points by buying and playing Temples and snagging a couple of green cards here and there.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2016, 03:35:43 pm »
+6

I played a board with this 3-card combo:

My opponent split 5/2 and opened Soothsayer; I opened Temple/Silver and continued buying only Temples and a couple Silvers, trashed my deck down to a Temple and two Silvers, then just Salted the Earth each turn till the game was over.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2016, 12:14:40 am »
0

I played a game with Tomb, Temple, and Ritual yesterday. That was a lot of fun too. It wasn't possible to get to a golden-deck scenario—i.e., trash a Curse with Temple, buy a Province, and trash a Province with Ritual each turn—but I did more or less get my deck down to the point where I could do all of those things cumulatively about every two turns.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2016, 02:57:00 pm »
0

Temple is the gathering card i don't hate. The others feel random and arbitrary to me, as the rewards you get for Harvest Market depend heavily on shuffle luck and/or seating order, while Wild Hunt just forces you to play with it (not just buy one) if you don't want your opponent to gain very easy points. You still have to buy Temple, but you can do that practically whenever you want, and you don't have to keep it. I'm still not a fan of the gathering "VP auction" sub game, but Temple at least allows playing it without the inherent randomness of Dominion screwing you over.

Oh, the strength? I think it's perfectly fine.

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2016, 03:40:35 pm »
+4

capitalisationreallysucksitsjustaboutasannoyingaspunctuationusingspacesoranythingthatmakesyouadecentcommunicatorisalsofornoobsdontyouagreeschadd

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2016, 06:01:04 pm »
+7

capitalisationreallysucksitsjustaboutasannoyingaspunctuationusingspacesoranythingthatmakesyouadecentcommunicatorisalsofornoobsdontyouagreeschadd
no
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2016, 06:44:14 pm »
+1

capitalisationreallysucksitsjustaboutasannoyingaspunctuationusingspacesoranythingthatmakesyouadecentcommunicatorisalsofornoobsdontyouagreeschadd

Capitalisation really sucks.  It's just about as annoying as punctuation, using spaces, or anything that makes you a decent communicator.  Is also for noobs.  Don't you agree schadd?
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2017, 07:37:47 pm »
0

Okay, this has been annoying me since the Empires Let's Discuss started.

Dude.  You have not just one but two shift keys on your keyboard.  One on each side even, conveniently placed such that one hand's little finger can hold it down while the other hand types a letter.  Without capitalization, English can be incredibly difficult to read.  You are not e. e. cummings*, and this isn't poetry.  Please start using your shift keys.
Matchmaking in Shuffle iT is, by design, pretty simple and versatile.
respectively.
Schadd is coming to the light side.

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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2017, 02:11:42 am »
0

Guys guys, the discussion on Capital hasn't started yet. :P
But Tribute is no longer available!
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2017, 02:13:17 am »
0

Misprint  :(... I thought this was some new, surprise promo!
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2017, 09:38:20 pm »
0

I do not know how long it's been since I forgot that this gives +1 VP token on play, in addition to putting a VP token on the Temple Supply pile.
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Re: tempires: emple
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2017, 02:40:14 am »
0

I played a board with this 3-card combo:

My opponent split 5/2 and opened Soothsayer; I opened Temple/Silver and continued buying only Temples and a couple Silvers, trashed my deck down to a Temple and two Silvers, then just Salted the Earth each turn till the game was over.

This is not a bad Rush. Buying only one Temple in the opening with a Silver, then Salting every time over buying Temple gets 8 Provinces trashed and 33 points in 13 turns. I didn't even take a turn off to get the 7 VP on the Temple, so the engine player may be able to take that to help catch up. Also, engine player will also have access to trashing. However, this Rush seems to be a very nice one. For example, Lurker/Catacombs/Silk Road is a formidable rush and it only manages about 29 points in 12 turns by game end.

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