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[schadd]

neither of these cards communicate any succinct qualities this game will have. king's court means, okay, turn 7 we kick into overdrive. fishing village says, let's play a bunch of action cards like a bunch of millenials that don't understand credit cards. archive is like, uh. it increases the amount of cards that you get to have and it sorta makes each hand a little bit better qualitatively, depending on how important it is to have different kinds of cards at different times. crown means, uh. i guess it's good to have expensive cards, and it's good to buy if you either want to play a bunch of actions or a bunch of treasures, and if you want to do both then you get to choose.


-if you've played with either of these cards, did you ever say to yourself, 'okay i need to get one of these now.' or is it, indeed, 'i thiiink that this card is a better decision than a different card, don't ask me to cite any sources'
-does it look like empires will have more of the "what do i even do here" effect that adventures kingdoms had?
-are these elegant or are they secretly barf-tastic?

[Phil]

Confession time: I've never liked Throne Room and King's Court, because when they inevitably fail to collide with an action I feel like somehow I've failed as a human being.  Royal Carriage was the first TR variant that I didn't loathe, because it just sat there waiting for me to use it on the right action.  Crown is, in my mind, even better; it's immediate, and getting to Crown a Gold as consolation for not having an action collide is, well, pretty great consolation.

I like Archive a lot.  It's (naively) a cantrip this turn, a strong Lab next turn, and a weak Lab the turn after.  It actually gets better in a greater-than-linear way with more than one in play, because you can start finagling which cards you want to pull off at the same time, like an uber-Haven.  There's a limit to that power, obviously, but man does it feel good when you engineer three turns in a row that are just right.

I do think that Archive contributes somewhat to Empires' AP-inducing nature, but I'd be super sad if the card didn't exist now that I know of it, so... I'll take it.

[traces Around]

Mass Archive big money is about even with somewhat better than double Jack speed wise, for what that's worth.

[drsteelhammer]

Mass Archive big money is about even with somewhat better than double Jack speed wise, for what that's worth.

what? any proof? That doesn't seem right to me

[traces Around]

Mass Archive big money is about even with somewhat better than double Jack speed wise, for what that's worth.

what? any proof? That doesn't seem right to me

Uhh, yeah... my reaction exactly.

100000 game simulation on Geronimoo's simulator has mass Archive (Gold on 6, Archive on 5, Province once it gets 1 gold and standard duchy rules for money strategies) beating double Jack 49.5% to 46%. And then think about how the simulator probably plays Jack better than Archive.

Think of it as a Gear you can't see ahead of time.

[aku_chi]

Much of Throne Room's strength comes from its versatility.  Sometimes, it can be used to amplify your draw.  Other times, that same Throne Room can be used to amplify your payload.  The catch is that your payload needs to be actions for Throne Room to really shine (of course, it can still be good when it's just helping you draw, especially if you have strong $5+ engine components).  Enter Crown: the throne room that can amplify treasure payloads.  Duplicating Gold is nice, but duplicating Platinum, Capital, Bank, or Horn of Plenty is fantastic.  Just like the other throne rooms, Crown isn't very good in a sloppy Silver-flood deck (though Storyteller + Crown inception seems amusingly difficult to track).  Even in a bad hand, Crown is often a consolation Copper or Silver, so it's not terrible to pick up early.  I like the card a lot, even if, in practice, it isn't much different from Throne Room.

I haven't played with Archive yet.  I wonder if it will have a similar fate as Cartographer.  Cartographer is a fine card - it always helps - but it can be tough to justify the purchase at $5.  Archive seems less good in the face of junking or early greening, but better at money smoothing.  I find it hard to imagine Archive fitting in well with a draw-your-deck style engine.  I'm not too surprised that it does well in a moneyish strategy.  I expect it is especially strong in combination with a good non-draw terminal at $3 or $4 (like Swindler, Amulet, Monument, or Militia).

[Jimmmmm]

Crowning (or Throning or, God forbid, King's Courting) an Archive IRL gets real fiddly real quick.

[traces Around]

100000 game simulation on Geronimoo's simulator has mass Archive (Gold on 6, Archive on 5, Province once it gets 1 gold and standard duchy rules for money strategies) beating double Jack 49.5% to 46%.

Sadly this simulation does not correspond to real life because Archive is implemented incorrectly in the simulator... if Archive drew you a card in addition to its other effects this would be the case, but it doesn't. It may still be a very good money card especially when combined with Militia/Soothsayer/the-like but it is indeed, as both I and drsteelhammer would have guessed, not that good.

[Seprix]

Everybody is underrating Archive. It's going to be very good. You will all see.

[eHalcyon]

100000 game simulation on Geronimoo's simulator has mass Archive (Gold on 6, Archive on 5, Province once it gets 1 gold and standard duchy rules for money strategies) beating double Jack 49.5% to 46%.

Sadly this simulation does not correspond to real life because Archive is implemented incorrectly in the simulator... if Archive drew you a card in addition to its other effects this would be the case, but it doesn't. It may still be a very good money card especially when combined with Militia/Soothsayer/the-like but it is indeed, as both I and drsteelhammer would have guessed, not that good.

Archive does effectively draw you a card though.  "Set aside the top 3 cards...  Now and at the start of your next two turns, put one into your hand".  Or is the implementation drawing a card on top of that, making it a Lab on play?

[traces Around]

^ Yeah, lab on play...

[JThorne]

I find it hard to imagine Archive fitting in well with a draw-your-deck style engine.

My impression is that it works quite well for this due to the fact that if your goal is to get your whole deck in play, this is almost like a non-terminal draw-3, like a Smithy with the +Action token or an activated Menagerie or Stables (that you don't have to discard a treasure to) all of which are absurdly powerful. Sometimes, drawing your deck isn't about being able to play all the cards in your deck, it's about being able to play a few key cards in a certain order every single turn; it's about consistency, not raw hand size. (Special note: It also gets you to Windfall status pretty quick!)

Early, it helps you set up combinations this turn and future turns. Late, it's not unusual to stash green cards so that they stay out of the way for two more turns. It can be a bit of a trick to space them out correctly, much like Fishing Villages; you don't just want to play every one you own in one turn. Sometimes the right play is stashing an Archive in an Archive for next turn (nice Gear impression there, Archive.)

Incidentally, I agree that bunching these cards in group discussions is questionable. There's no reason not to spread them out to one card per discussion. Besides, this subject line would fit Archive+Forum better than Archive+Crown.

[Witherweaver]

Wow, Archive seems, like... really good. 

[Seprix]

Wow, Archive seems, like... really good.

It seems sucky when you read it, and then you actually start playing with it and realize how actually good it is.

[ThetaSigma12]

Okay, why are we discussing these in one thread? They are completely different cards?!?!

[Witherweaver]

Wow, Archive seems, like... really good.

It seems sucky when you read it, and then you actually start playing with it and realize how actually good it is.

It seems really good when I read it.

[Chris is me]

The only tricky use case for Archive is in draw your deck engines, where you might have to leave a critical part of your payload out of the game for a turn or two. But the game control and turn control you get out of it makes it still probably worth it. Gear comparisons are pretty apt except it's nonterminal and kind of expensive! Hard to fit a buy in for it or to get an idea when the "right" time for it is.

Crown is just Throne Room that never misses. In Empires games, there are a lot of times you specifically want Crown for cute combos with existing Treasures (Capital is the big one, but also Charm is important). But really, you buy it when you would buy Throne Room, but also in sloggier games too. It's also kind of hard to "find a buy" for it.

[eHalcyon]

Crown is just Throne Room that never misses.

Crown + 4 Provinces. 

[FishingVillage]

Crown is just Throne Room that never misses.

Crown + 4 Provinces.  ;)

Don't be daft. Who would be silly enough to buy that many provinces and gum up their deck as a result?

[Witherweaver]

Crown is just Throne Room that never misses.

Crown + 4 Provinces. 

Don't be daft. Who would be silly enough to buy that many provinces and gum up their deck as a result?

Need an Inheritance for Provinces

[Chris is me]

Crown is just Throne Room that never misses.

Crown + 4 Provinces. 

I should have known better than to use a concise absolute to make a point rather than writing a longer winded explanation that includes all possible edge cases. I am on FDS, after all.

[Seprix]

Crown is just Throne Room that never misses.

Crown + 4 Provinces. 

I should have known better than to use a concise absolute to make a point rather than writing a longer winded explanation that includes all possible edge cases. I am on FDS, after all.

You are forgiven. Go and sin no more.