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Author Topic: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events (triumph, conquest)  (Read 4079 times)

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schadd

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+2




conquest is generally better than harem. triumph is generally better than wishing well. et cetera.
in most cases, for these cards, there usually needs to be a 'gain more cards than the one you can usually get' sort of thing for them to be good. i mean, you do buy harem, and conquest is generally better than it, as i mentioned earlier. and uh. maybe you would take 5 debt for an estate. the impression i get from these is that triumph is better for trimmish engines (but you might not be one of those for very long) and conquest might fit into things that produce a lot of money and get buys sometimes but maybe can't count on drawing themselves.


-what does triumph get from being 5 debt instead of 5 bucks? should we try to end the game by buying it?
-what's the strategy with infinite buys and n dollars with both masterpiece and conquest in play?
-considering triumph, several (i think?) empires cards, and inheritance, how does estate work as an alt-vp pile? what cases might pop up where one tries to poke holes in her opponent's triumph strategy by denying estates?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:16:58 pm by schadd »
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eHalcyon

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2016, 07:18:26 pm »
0

Why are you comparing Triumph with Wishing Well?  They don't fulfill similar functions at all.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2016, 07:33:27 pm »
+2

Hmm, is Conquest/Harem the closest we've got to strictly better for the same cost (ignoring trash-for-benefit, type interactions, Fairgrounds, not wanting Silver etc)?
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eHalcyon

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 07:39:23 pm »
+1

Hmm, is Conquest/Harem the closest we've got to strictly better for the same cost (ignoring trash-for-benefit, type interactions, Fairgrounds, not wanting Silver etc)?

There's still Noble Brigand vs. Thief.  But I think not wanting extra Silver is a pretty common case.
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schadd

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 07:39:57 pm »
+1

Why are you comparing Triumph with Wishing Well?  They don't fulfill similar functions at all.
you just did this thing that a lot of people do where you ask me a question and then answer it
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faust

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 07:44:51 pm »
+5

-what does triumph get from being 5 debt instead of 5 bucks? should we try to end the game by buying it?
Well, you can buy more cards and then Triumph, and it doesn't hurt as much to lose the money on the following turn than on this one, where you want to get the max amount of gains.

-what's the strategy with infinite buys and n dollars with both masterpiece and conquest in play?
Buying k Conquests, having overpaid for Masterpiece with n-3-6k, gives you f(k)=k*(n-3-6k)+k*(k+1) VP. This need to be optimised with respect to k. It's an upside-down parabola, so the maximum is where the derivative equals 0.
The derivative is f'(k)=n-2-10k, so k=(n-2)/10.

EDIT: Fixed an error. The formula for the VP gain from k conquests comes from VPgain = 2+4+6+...+2k =2*sum_{1 to k} i = 2*k*(k+1)/2.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 10:06:44 am by faust »
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eHalcyon

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 07:52:14 pm »
0

Why are you comparing Triumph with Wishing Well?  They don't fulfill similar functions at all.
you just did this thing that a lot of people do where you ask me a question and then answer it

So it was a joke?  I mean, the Conquest vs. Harem comparison actually made sense so I thought you were continuing that.  My guess would have been that you put down the wrong card by mistake.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 08:18:58 pm »
0

Hmm, is Conquest/Harem the closest we've got to strictly better for the same cost (ignoring trash-for-benefit, type interactions, Fairgrounds, not wanting Silver etc)?

There's still Noble Brigand vs. Thief.  But I think not wanting extra Silver is a pretty common case.

I'd wager Thief is better than Noble Brigand more often than Harem is better than conquest, and potentially by a much bigger margin too. And how often do you buy Harem if you don't want Silver?
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schadd

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 08:22:38 pm »
+6

Why are you comparing Triumph with Wishing Well?  They don't fulfill similar functions at all.
you just did this thing that a lot of people do where you ask me a question and then answer it

So it was a joke?  I mean, the Conquest vs. Harem comparison actually made sense so I thought you were continuing that.  My guess would have been that you put down the wrong card by mistake.
see, in this case i was making a sort of common joke wherein one makes a comparison that some might consider to be important (in this case, comparing conquest and harem) but then using a deliberately weak analogy to discount the importance of this comparison (or rather asserting the opinion that the former comparison is unimportant; in this case i compared triumph to wishing well, which do not intuitively merit being compared to each other.) possible confusing aspects of this analogy: i neglected to explicitly make it an analogy by saying "conquest is better than harem in a similar manner to how triumph is better than wishing well," instead composing them as two statements and relying on the reader to understand how they are connected. i also decided to use, for the latter comparison, a card relevant to the discussion, instead of some completely arbitrary card like wharf, to compare to wishing well. this may have been misconstrued as a method of adding to the discussion if, indeed, the reader did not interpret the two statements as an implicit analogy.


logs containing an example of this style of joke:
Saying that some scientists are philosophically ignorant is like saying that your plumber hasn't watched enough cartoons.
Quote
A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.
in both of these cases, some speaker is attempting to ridicule a certain relationship of two things (in both cases, this relationship was articulated first) by comparing this relationship to one nonsensical. in the joke that i created, i declined to follow the exact format of these and other past cases (i used a coherent yet irrelevant comparison for the latter part of my analogy, in addition to the deviations listed above) because of a continual artistic desire to do so.


hope this helps
-s
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schadd

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 08:26:01 pm »
+3

addendum.


i would like to propose a corollary to the 'joke explaining' axiom as accepted by the forum:
booger corollary—if it is true that the explanation of a joke adds to its value, it follows that jokes are ideally created in such a way that they merit or even require a degree of explanation.
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Seprix

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 08:26:40 pm »
0

I got it Schadd. I didn't think it needed explaining. But I guess it's funnier now.
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math

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 08:55:57 pm »
0

I can't see myself buying Conquest in very many situations where I wouldn't have bought Harem, barring massive silver gaining and stuff like that.  I guess you would start buying it slightly earlier in the game than Harem, since it gives an extra Silver.

Triumph seems amazing.  In an engine with Goons or Merchant Guild, I usually end up buying at least two cards per turn, often more, and buying Copper for the extra bonus becomes a very attractive option.  Triumph seems like it would play out similarly.  Also, trashing the Estate and rebuying Triumph each turn is probably worth it, for a Distant Lands-style effect that doesn't use an action.  It's even better with a Remodel variant, since gaining a replacement card from the Estate powers up this turn's Triumph even more.
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FishingVillage

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 09:08:36 pm »
0

I haven't played with Triumph yet. Seems like it would pair very happily with Goons. Buy up a ton of stuff, use your last buy on Triumph, get nearly double the number of VPs you would normally get from buying stuff with Goons alone. If you've got enough money and buys, I'm assuming Triumph's +VP / gain will stack, though the payoff on just buying only Triumph isn't great. In a vacuum though, without extra buys and/or ways to gain additional stuff in a turn, I don't think Triumph is worth it. 2 points for <5>? I guess you could feed the Estate to a Temple or a Bishop.

The game I played with Conquest also had Catapult / Rocks and Tomb, so that turned out hilarious. I think I bought Conquest on its own once or twice. I went double Catapult and basically started launching treasures as often as I could. I got Rocks whenever I had the money for it. Once or twice I was able to Catapult a Rock, which gains me a Silver, then bought a Conquest for more VP than usual, that seemed fun. Even in a vacuum, Conquest has the same total cost as two Silvers, which is what it gives. It's harder to hit $6 in one turn than $3 over two turns, but you only have to spend 1 buy and you get VPs out of it, so your effort is somewhat rewarded. I might be happy to get Conquest over Gold once or twice?

I'd probably value Conquest more on boards with lower costing alt VP. Smoothing out my hands for more even slightly-above-average hands would be fun if I don't care as much for Provinces. Like ignoring Feodum or Gardens, which would be the obvious enablers imo, I think I could be happy to tunnel vision for Conquest over Gold on boards with Dukes or Silk Roads. I make it easier to get alt VP per hand, and I shore up the potential Province differences with minor amounts of VP from Conquest.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 09:15:56 pm by FishingVillage »
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eHalcyon

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 09:15:31 pm »
+2

Why are you comparing Triumph with Wishing Well?  They don't fulfill similar functions at all.
you just did this thing that a lot of people do where you ask me a question and then answer it

So it was a joke?  I mean, the Conquest vs. Harem comparison actually made sense so I thought you were continuing that.  My guess would have been that you put down the wrong card by mistake.
see, in this case i was making a sort of common joke wherein one makes a comparison that some might consider to be important (in this case, comparing conquest and harem) but then using a deliberately weak analogy to discount the importance of this comparison (or rather asserting the opinion that the former comparison is unimportant; in this case i compared triumph to wishing well, which do not intuitively merit being compared to each other.) possible confusing aspects of this analogy: i neglected to explicitly make it an analogy by saying "conquest is better than harem in a similar manner to how triumph is better than wishing well," instead composing them as two statements and relying on the reader to understand how they are connected. i also decided to use, for the latter comparison, a card relevant to the discussion, instead of some completely arbitrary card like wharf, to compare to wishing well. this may have been misconstrued as a method of adding to the discussion if, indeed, the reader did not interpret the two statements as an implicit analogy.


logs containing an example of this style of joke:
Saying that some scientists are philosophically ignorant is like saying that your plumber hasn't watched enough cartoons.
Quote
A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.
in both of these cases, some speaker is attempting to ridicule a certain relationship of two things (in both cases, this relationship was articulated first) by comparing this relationship to one nonsensical. in the joke that i created, i declined to follow the exact format of these and other past cases (i used a coherent yet irrelevant comparison for the latter part of my analogy, in addition to the deviations listed above) because of a continual artistic desire to do so.


hope this helps
-s

I totally understand the examples you quoted, but I don't think it works as well for the point you're making, especially since you didn't make it an analogy.  The science/philosophy example suggests that scientists don't need to be well-versed in philosophy to do what they do.  The second example suggests that a woman doesn't need a man.  So your comparisons are meant to suggest that Conquest isn't comparable to Harem?  That's confusing though, because it seems like a totally valid and interesting comparison.  If that's the point you're making, it would be good for discussion to elaborate on why you think that.

Hmm, is Conquest/Harem the closest we've got to strictly better for the same cost (ignoring trash-for-benefit, type interactions, Fairgrounds, not wanting Silver etc)?

There's still Noble Brigand vs. Thief.  But I think not wanting extra Silver is a pretty common case.

I'd wager Thief is better than Noble Brigand more often than Harem is better than conquest, and potentially by a much bigger margin too. And how often do you buy Harem if you don't want Silver?

It's not uncommon to want alt VP as an extra source of points and the fact that Harem is merely a Silver may be something that you don't particularly want but have to live with (and mind less than a pure Victory card which is totally dead).  In this case, the two Silvers for Triumph may be a greater evil.

Also, I think the times when Thief is better than Noble Brigand are super rare (but Thief is way, way better than Noble Brigand in those cases, whereas the margin between Harem and Conquest sounds slim to me).
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aku_chi

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2016, 12:50:29 am »
0

Buying k Conquests, having overpaid for Masterpiece with n-3-6k, gives you f(k)=k*(n-3-6k)+k*(k-1) VP. This need to be optimised with respect to k. It's an upside-down parabola, so the maximum is where the derivative equals 0.
The derivative is f'(k)=n-2-10k, so k=(n-2)/10.

EDIT: Fixed an error. The formula for the VP gain from k conquests comes from VPgain = 2+4+6+...+2k =2*sum_{1 to k} i = 2*k*(k-1)/2.

I think your formula for the VP gain from k conquests is incorrect.  3 conquests provides 12 VP, but your formula (k*(k-1)) yields 6 VP.  I believe the correct formula is k*(k+1).  I don't know how to derive that mathematically, but it fits the data.

But, your derivative (and resulting solution) seem correct...
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2016, 01:01:49 am »
+2

I think Triumph is really powerful.  It only takes one additional gain for it to be (generally) superior to buying a Duchy.  With most engines that aren't buy-limited, it should be comparable to Province in VP with the following advantages:
  • It doesn't deplete the Province pile, and so fares better against faster Province-buying strategies.
  • It costs debt, so you can add an additional engine piece before greening.
  • It costs less than Province.
  • The Estates can be trashed for a VP loss of only one.
  • On your last turn, you can use extra buys to grab a bunch of Copper and multiple Triumphs.  For instance, with 15 coins and 8 buys, you could buy 4 Coppers and 4 Triumphs for 30 VP (and more with other gains)!
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JThorne

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2016, 11:33:08 am »
0

I think Beggar-Triumph is a thing. Tried it in a game the other day just to see what happened, and it was only barely edged out by an engine powered by a Crown/Capital payload. It was 3-player IRL, and it finished barely second.

It really likes treasures that give +buy. I forget which one I used.

There's a trick, though. Many Alt+VP rushes like Beggar-Gardens pile out the Alt card, the key action and Estates. The problem with Beggar-Triumph is figuring out a third pile to empty other than Beggars and Estates, which I didn't manage to do. Amazingly, the game was very close even though the Provinces emptied.
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 11:49:29 am »
0

I think Beggar-Triumph is a thing. Tried it in a game the other day just to see what happened, and it was only barely edged out by an engine powered by a Crown/Capital payload. It was 3-player IRL, and it finished barely second.

It really likes treasures that give +buy. I forget which one I used.

There's a trick, though. Many Alt+VP rushes like Beggar-Gardens pile out the Alt card, the key action and Estates. The problem with Beggar-Triumph is figuring out a third pile to empty other than Beggars and Estates, which I didn't manage to do. Amazingly, the game was very close even though the Provinces emptied.

As there aren't many treasures that give plus buy, it probably was Capital!
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 04:28:04 pm »
0

I think Beggar-Triumph is a thing. Tried it in a game the other day just to see what happened, and it was only barely edged out by an engine powered by a Crown/Capital payload. It was 3-player IRL, and it finished barely second.

It really likes treasures that give +buy. I forget which one I used.

There's a trick, though. Many Alt+VP rushes like Beggar-Gardens pile out the Alt card, the key action and Estates. The problem with Beggar-Triumph is figuring out a third pile to empty other than Beggars and Estates, which I didn't manage to do. Amazingly, the game was very close even though the Provinces emptied.

As there aren't many treasures that give plus buy, it probably was Capital!

Or Charm. Or Contraband, but probably it was Charm?
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2016, 04:41:32 pm »
0

I think Beggar-Triumph is a thing. Tried it in a game the other day just to see what happened, and it was only barely edged out by an engine powered by a Crown/Capital payload. It was 3-player IRL, and it finished barely second.

It really likes treasures that give +buy. I forget which one I used.

There's a trick, though. Many Alt+VP rushes like Beggar-Gardens pile out the Alt card, the key action and Estates. The problem with Beggar-Triumph is figuring out a third pile to empty other than Beggars and Estates, which I didn't manage to do. Amazingly, the game was very close even though the Provinces emptied.

As there aren't many treasures that give plus buy, it probably was Capital!

Or Charm. Or Contraband, but probably it was Charm?

Yeah only these three are possible (he doesnt get to fortune with his deck) and since Capital is the only one guaranteed in the Kingdom I like my odds.
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Seprix

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2016, 04:51:55 pm »
0

Or Counterfeit. Or Fortune. There is also Crown with +buy Token, but nobody talks about that one.
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2016, 05:30:26 pm »
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Or Counterfeit. Or Fortune. There is also Crown with +buy Token, but nobody talks about that one.

It isn't Fortune for the reason stated above. And it isn't Crown with the buy token because JThorne would have put it on Beggar if he it was on the board.
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JThorne

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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2016, 10:38:11 am »
0

I think it was Contraband, because I remember that doesn't prevent buying events. There are actually quite a few special treasures that give +buy! (Not to beat a dead horse, but it would sure be nice if we had some sort of searchable database where we could check the Treasure / +buy checkboxes and see all the matches. I'm a software developer, and I'm seriously tempted to write it. Is there a text/XML/HTML format file containing all of the card names and text somewhere?)

One other note: On the 3-pile subject, I very nearly piled out the Coppers. Beggar is a curious beast.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:39:45 am by JThorne »
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events (triumph, conquest)
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 06:22:42 pm »
+1

So on the last two boards where I had Conquest it turns out it's really really strong. But I probably got lucky with boards that worked for it. In an engine with +buy it can gain you a heck of a lot of points pretty fast, but even without +buy it can be better than buying a single gold.

If you've got an engine with +buys then it seems it can generally better than buying provinces the first two or three times I think, but after that you'll have so much money in your deck that sniping the rest of the provinces is really easy. Having more stop cards isn't so bad if you can just province or double province each turn with no issues.

Admittedly, the last game I played I had 10 sentires with a +card token on them and 4 disciples, so churning past all those silvers was no problem. I got 45 points from Conquest and the silver pile emptied. Also there was Feodum. And Trader. It was bonkers.
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events (triumph, conquest)
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2018, 11:05:20 am »
0

The Renaissance cards are going to bring about a renaissance in these cards. 3 renaissance cards that will be huge for this are sculptor, mountain village. and experiment. Cards like sculptor that both help you build your deck, but also allow for multiple cards to be gained in one good mega turn (especially if tactician in play).
 
The real beauty of sculptor for these types of engines is that rather than just gaining a card like most gainers, you gain it to your hand. So if a card that has + actions is avail on board you can just keep gaining and playing them to draw more sculptors etc. 

Mountain village is also amazing for this, b/c it allows you to pull any card out of your discard pile, so if you gained cards in other ways that turn you can use them on the same turn.

 I played a game the other night with triumph, stonemason (luckily from BM), charm (from BM too) Ill-gotten gains on board, sculptor and mountain village. + buys were avail too but I forget how.  BUt every turn was playing the whole deck trashing down cards to get two more (trashing a gold to get two Igg's then gain all the coppers was a fun one)  I think I was getting up to 14 or 15 VP per triumph by the end of that one. Getting torturer from the BM and then playing it every hand was nice.  Because I either drew it, drew a sculptor and gained a MV to get it, or had a MV in hand already.

I can only imagine how many points i could have gotten had experiment been the card (well cards) that sculptor was gaining to my hand.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 11:08:32 am by Honkeyfresh »
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Re: empires: vp for gaining a bunch of stuff events
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2018, 12:44:49 pm »
0

I think Triumph is really powerful.  It only takes one additional gain for it to be (generally) superior to buying a Duchy.  With most engines that aren't buy-limited, it should be comparable to Province in VP with the following advantages:
  • It doesn't deplete the Province pile, and so fares better against faster Province-buying strategies.
  • It costs debt, so you can add an additional engine piece before greening.
  • It costs less than Province.
  • The Estates can be trashed for a VP loss of only one.
  • On your last turn, you can use extra buys to grab a bunch of Copper and multiple Triumphs.  For instance, with 15 coins and 8 buys, you could buy 4 Coppers and 4 Triumphs for 30 VP (and more with other gains)!

now imagine you add in the renaissance cards, and IG, stone mason, port etc, artificer, sculptor.  You could probably now mump this ti somewhere near 50-60 VP without too much difficulty (especially in a wharf, grand market/market/capital or even CSM game where buys are not so limited.  Even that 4 coust +buy gainer would be amazing there at an early cost of 4,
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