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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Results!)  (Read 8999 times)

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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2016, 07:05:47 pm »
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Ah, yes, I remember that one.

I actually liked that landmark.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2016, 07:30:11 pm »
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I have send in a proposal too. Let's see if it works.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2016, 08:02:55 pm »
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Volcano trashes your hand if you end the game.  I know which thread it's from, but I'm assuming that nobody's linking it for purposes of a more anonymous contest.

So yeah, that doesn't fit the official meaning of the "Landmark" typing.  Donald has said that if something like that were made, it would get a new type.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2016, 02:10:35 am »
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Doing such a card as perma, non-triggerable Event is awefully artifical so Landmark it is, even if it is not perfectly in line with the implicit "official" rules. I mean, gee, do we want creative or hyperrestrictive fan-cards?
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2016, 03:33:59 am »
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Doing such a card as perma, non-triggerable Event is awefully artifical so Landmark it is, even if it is not perfectly in line with the implicit "official" rules. I mean, gee, do we want creative or hyperrestrictive fan-cards?

Again, it would get a new type, not Landmark, not Event.  That's the explicit official answer.  It's worth noting that restrictions breed creativity.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2016, 04:51:52 am »
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So events are things we can buy, landmarks are *things that happen* related to vp.

And we want something that is *things that happen* not tied to vp? I think we can have that, but not as landmark, per specifications.

Some silly examples:
- when you buy a card, gain 2 debt.
- when anyone gets a curse during ypur turn, ypu get a copper.
- when buying silver, it costs $2
- when you play an attack card, gain a copper

Or bunch of silly things. I just wonder if we can find things that are worth it. Admittedly, I think volcano is cool. I still think volcano can be a landmark, although it's a long shot, but since it can trash vp and since it will make you care about what you do specifically related to vp, I think it works. I mean: isn't the beauty of volcano that it is a tied to vp decision making without mentioning vp at all?
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 05:25:08 am »
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So events are things we can buy, landmarks are *things that happen* related to vp.

And we want something that is *things that happen* not tied to vp? I think we can have that, but not as landmark, per specifications.

Some silly examples:
- when you buy a card, gain 2 debt.
- when anyone gets a curse during ypur turn, ypu get a copper.
- when buying silver, it costs $2
- when you play an attack card, gain a copper

Or bunch of silly things. I just wonder if we can find things that are worth it. Admittedly, I think volcano is cool. I still think volcano can be a landmark, although it's a long shot, but since it can trash vp and since it will make you care about what you do specifically related to vp, I think it works. I mean: isn't the beauty of volcano that it is a tied to vp decision making without mentioning vp at all?

Except it's not specific to VP.  Landmarks are tied to VP, either being conditionally worth VP itself (positive or negative) or providing VP tokens.  "Game ender trashes hand" has no inherent VP value.  It's incidental.  As ThetaSigma said earlier, it's as related to VP as Gold is related to VP (because, hey, you can use Gold to buy a Province).

Also, not sure if intentional but two of the "silly" things on your list already exist as Events -- Tax and Delve.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 12:33:49 pm »
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So events are things we can buy, landmarks are *things that happen* related to vp.

And we want something that is *things that happen* not tied to vp? I think we can have that, but not as landmark, per specifications.

Some silly examples:
- when you buy a card, gain 2 debt.
- when anyone gets a curse during ypur turn, ypu get a copper.
- when buying silver, it costs $2
- when you play an attack card, gain a copper

Or bunch of silly things. I just wonder if we can find things that are worth it. Admittedly, I think volcano is cool. I still think volcano can be a landmark, although it's a long shot, but since it can trash vp and since it will make you care about what you do specifically related to vp, I think it works. I mean: isn't the beauty of volcano that it is a tied to vp decision making without mentioning vp at all?

Except it's not specific to VP.  Landmarks are tied to VP, either being conditionally worth VP itself (positive or negative) or providing VP tokens.  "Game ender trashes hand" has no inherent VP value.  It's incidental.  As ThetaSigma said earlier, it's as related to VP as Gold is related to VP (because, hey, you can use Gold to buy a Province).

Also, not sure if intentional but two of the "silly" things on your list already exist as Events -- Tax and Delve.

Yes, you have already said that. I can also repeat my point on why I do like it and why, even though it doesn't have 'VP' written on it, there is still a very close link to VP-decision making. But well, that would be redundant, wouldn't it?
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 02:18:01 pm »
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Yes, you have already said that. I can also repeat my point on why I do like it and why, even though it doesn't have 'VP' written on it, there is still a very close link to VP-decision making. But well, that would be redundant, wouldn't it?

I like it too, but it still doesn't fit.  Sorry if it seemed redundant, but I was responding to the last line about the beauty of it being closely tied to VP.  What I'm saying is, it isn't.  The link to VP decision-making is the same general link that everything in Dominion has, from Gold (it makes money so you can buy VP!) to Workshop (it gives +Buy so you can buy multiple VP cards on the same turn!).

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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 02:25:16 pm »
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I don't think the analogy holds up, but you can be of that opinion.
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 03:46:54 pm »
+2

There are a few existing landmarks which do more than just change scores.  Mountain Pass lets you take debt.  Arena lets you discard a card.  There are some edge cases where this can allow you to do something different in the middle of the game (e.g. pay off debt, buy Villa, play Storyteller).

Volcano, on the other hand, does not allow you to do anything different during the game, because it only does something at the very end.  I don't agree with the argument that Volcano's effect on VP is only incidental, because VP is literally the only thing Volcano can affect.  So I think Volcano could count as a landmark for purposes of this contest.

That said, I'm not a fan.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2016, 03:53:28 pm »
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There are a few existing landmarks which do more than just change scores.  Mountain Pass lets you take debt.  Arena lets you discard a card.  There are some edge cases where this can allow you to do something different in the middle of the game (e.g. pay off debt, buy Villa, play Storyteller).

Volcano, on the other hand, does not allow you to do anything different during the game, because it only does something at the very end.  I don't agree with the argument that Volcano's effect on VP is only incidental, because VP is literally the only thing Volcano can affect.  So I think Volcano could count as a landmark for purposes of this contest.

That said, I'm not a fan.

I think you have worded in a better way why I like it: it affects VP (and is literally completely tied to vp-decision making) without it actually mentioning vp, but like you said it only affects vp in one way or another, either by directly potentially trashing a province, or indirectly by trashing those cards you needed for gardens or whatever.

You don't like it. That's fair; but it's cool that it's so closely tied to vp's, without mentioning it. I see eHalcyon's point about: 'yes, it's not specific about vp', but I can only interpret this as: 'it doesn't mention vp'. Well, I think it doesn't need to mention vp to have an effect that is powerful and only influenced by vp. That's why I am not a huge fan of the 'ow, it's like gold that allows you to buy vp or not'. This can only affect vp, by the very nature of how it's designed. You will play completely different, because you can loose vp. You will make your engine completely different, because when the game ends, something radically different will happen that will only affect your vp. If it does all that, without mentioning vp specifically, isn't that a thing of beauty?

Let me ask this: is there an idea that will have such a large affect on vp without mentioning vp, that only will affect vp creation? I can't imagine one, to be honest. Rather than denouncing this landmark, I think we should celebrate it as a stroke of pure genius.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2016, 03:58:14 pm »
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Again, to clarify, it affects VP cards, but doesn't do anything with VP itself.  That's the difference.  All the Landmarks are themselves worth VP or they give VP tokens.

A way to make it work would be to translate it to its own VP, maybe.  Something like, "The first time an end game condition is met, the current player reveals their hand; each other player gets +3VP per Victory card revealed".  I think this would also solve that "time travel" problem that was mentioned earlier, which is a pretty big deal. 
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2016, 04:00:39 pm »
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Again, to clarify, it affects VP cards, but doesn't do anything with VP itself.  That's the difference.  All the Landmarks are themselves worth VP or they give VP tokens.


I find this of minor importance, tbh, relative to benefits it has of what the card does. Wolfden, btw, is slightly different: it removes vp. Volcano also removes vp in a very specific way: by removing vp cards from your deck.

Suppose volcano says: 'when you end the game, all vp-providing cards in your hand are subtracted from your total'. Is that really that different from wolf den?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 04:22:02 pm by AdrianHealey »
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2016, 04:39:34 pm »
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Again, to clarify, it affects VP cards, but doesn't do anything with VP itself.  That's the difference.  All the Landmarks are themselves worth VP or they give VP tokens.


I find this of minor importance, tbh, relative to benefits it has of what the card does. Wolfden, btw, is slightly different: it removes vp. Volcano also removes vp in a very specific way: by removing vp cards from your deck.

Suppose volcano says: 'when you end the game, all vp-providing cards in your hand are subtracted from your total'. Is that really that different from wolf den?

Yes, I think there's a difference between Wolf Den being worth a specific -VP value vs. Volcano removing actual cards from your deck.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2016, 11:17:31 am »
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Volcano destroys Victory cards so it makes total sense to call it Landmark. If Cookielord had invented a new category just for one card the rule lawyer faction would have nitpicked it to death as well without actually caring one iota about whether the idea of the card is good or bad.

Delve is extremely artifical and would make more sense as a global permaevent:
"Silver costs 1$ less"

Now whether you call this Event or Landmark or whatever doesn't matter at all. But global perma-events beyond mere VP token handing out stuff is definitely something interesting and there is obvious more design potential in such a more general category as the particular stuff about VP tokens is already covered by Landmarks. There might some good ideas left but Donald has probably already covered the best via Landmarks.

Gathering is something similar. I see no reason to restrict this to VP tokens, you can also do stuff with Coin tokens or whatever else comes to mind.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 11:19:28 am by tristan »
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2016, 02:47:25 pm »
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Chapel trashes Estates but it doesn't make sense to call it a Victory card.

Again with the Rules Lawyer strawman.

Donald gave a very specific reason why Gathering wouldn't be used for coin tokens. That should be reason enough.

Also, people weren't naming the creator of Volcano for a reason. Would have been nice for you to respect that.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 02:51:44 pm by eHalcyon »
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2016, 03:06:04 pm »
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Just to be totally clear -- I have nothing against the idea non-VP Landmarks in general.  On the contrary, I think it's a fantastic idea, and it's part of the reason why I asked Donald about it in the first place.  Even now, I hope he changes his mind and releases non-VP Landmarks in the future.  I look forward to seeing fan card ideas like Volcano in the future, whether it's billed as a Landmark or not.

But in the context of this Treasure Chest contest, I believe 100% that we should follow the type definitions set out by Donald X.  We're designing cards that are supposed to fit in the official sets, so we should really follow the map set by the game designer himself.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2016, 03:39:52 pm »
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Chapel trashes Estates but it doesn't make sense to call it a Victory card.
Bullcrap. Volcano potentially trashes Victory cards at the very last turn of the game which has nothing at all to do with early game deck thinning via CHapel.
Volcano is about the potential downside of ending the game with Victory cards in your hand as they are then trashed. So it provides negative VPs and the green background of Landmark, signaling that this has something to do with VPs, is totally justified.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless. I could point out ample of times why global perma-events should not be implemented via events like Delve which feels awefully artificial and instead be either included in the Landmark category (creating a new category for global perma-events seems contrived as well) without getting any reaction from you besides "Donald said so".
Same with Gathering. The idea is neat and there is zero reason to implement in a hyperrestrictive "only VPs" way (especially not in the case of fan cards which will never be sold or publically released or whatever but only, in the best case, printed by a bunch of Dominion freaks like us).
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2016, 03:48:00 pm »
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Read my last post.

Delve is fine.  Doesn't seem artificial to me at all.  It also has some significant differences from a general "Silver now costs $2" rule.

And since you can't seem to find the part for Gathering, here:


No guarantees that Gathering cards will ever appear outside of Empires, but should they remain strictly tied to VP?  Gathering with coin tokens seems like an obvious thing that could work.
For me Gathering cards want to be things that Defiled Shrine is specifically dodging putting tokens on. So, cards that put VP tokens on their pile. "Gathering with coin tokens" runs into the problem of interacting with Trade Route, but that aside, would get a different type if it happened.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2016, 03:50:41 pm »
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I think the ultimate judge is the organizer of this competion. Mith, can we have a ruling here?
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2016, 03:53:45 pm »
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Read my last post.

Delve is fine.  Doesn't seem artificial to me at all.  It also has some significant differences from a general "Silver now costs $2" rule.

And since you can't seem to find the part for Gathering, here:


No guarantees that Gathering cards will ever appear outside of Empires, but should they remain strictly tied to VP?  Gathering with coin tokens seems like an obvious thing that could work.
For me Gathering cards want to be things that Defiled Shrine is specifically dodging putting tokens on. So, cards that put VP tokens on their pile. "Gathering with coin tokens" runs into the problem of interacting with Trade Route, but that aside, would get a different type if it happened.
Donald naturally knows a shit load about Dominion as he designed it but he ain't God. Interacting with Trade Route is hardly an issue, you simply use another token for Trade Route.
I don't care about how you call cards that put Coin tokens or other stuff on cards. Personally I am fine with Gathering and use the wording for one of my cards as too many types is too confusing IMO.

About this "competition", of course it should use the official rules. The general fan card forum is for stuff that is not restricted by individual expansions.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2016, 04:00:58 pm »
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Donald naturally knows a shit load about Dominion as he designed it but he ain't God. Interacting with Trade Route is hardly an issue, you simply use another token for Trade Route.
I don't care about how you call cards that put Coin tokens or other stuff on cards. Personally I am fine with Gathering and use the wording for one of my cards as too many types is too confusing IMO.

It's not just Trade Route either though.  Using the Gathering type means that Defiled Shrine is dodging a card it doesn't need to dodge.

If you don't care, then there's no reason not to use a new subtype.  I mean, there are subtypes just for Knights and Castles and it's perfectly understandable.

About this "competition", of course it should use the official rules. The general fan card forum is for stuff that is not restricted by individual expansions.

Then I don't know why you're even arguing.  Did you not notice which thread and subforum this is?
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2016, 11:05:55 am »
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I think the ultimate judge is the organizer of this competion. Mith, can we have a ruling here?

I am inclined to agree that, given the official statement on the Landmark type, only cards tied to VP should be submitted. The intent of the contest is to design a card which would fit with the existing official cards.

(That said, we have had cards submitted which did not fit the theme of the contest - I will continue to include such cards in the voting, and leave it up to the voters to determine whether the card fits or not.)
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Seprix

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2016, 12:45:17 pm »
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How could there be a Landmark card without it being involved with VP?
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