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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Results!)  (Read 7358 times)

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Fragasnap

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2016, 09:44:03 pm »
0

How could there be a Landmark card without it being involved with VP?
If we want to be technical, all Landmark cards do is change the rules, with many adding on an additional effect that occurs to all players "when scoring" and all the others adding an additional rule that allows players to score VPs. Tomb is effectively "[In games using this,] when you trash a card, +1VP": The fact that it involves VP is purely circumstantial.
I would say that slapping any "in games using this" effect onto a Landmark card would be totally within bounds of the rules (much like cards that stay out for more than 2 turns like Archive and Hireling are still Duration cards), even though no such card currently exists. Just the same, I cannot think of such a card that would get my vote.
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ConMan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2016, 12:08:05 am »
0

I do not discount the opinion that Landmarks should be VP-related, and certainly the argument that we are trying to make a Treasure Chest that "fits" with the existing expansions would definitely preference such a Landmark. That said, I really hope to see at least a couple of entries that introduce some other kind of global rule change (e.g. at the end of the first full turn, have a bid for turn order), if only to see what kind of design space opens up. If nothing else, then those ideas can then be floated in some other venue and judged on their own merits, if the group consensus is that VP-related Landmarks are the way to go.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2016, 03:55:03 pm »
0

Revised deadline is Monday.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2016, 05:47:14 pm »
+2

Curious what will come out of this contest.

Also, i just noticed that Arena would have worked perfectly well as an Event (with a Setup, but Tax has one, too).

Seprix

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2016, 05:52:28 pm »
0

Good luck to everyone.
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ConMan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2016, 12:24:51 am »
+2

I am very excited to see the submissions. Both because I think there's a lot of interesting directions to take it, and because I want my "unread posts" to have more Dominion discussion in it than political discussion.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2016, 11:32:13 am »
+3

Submissions are closed. I will definitely* get them up today sometime.

*probably
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2016, 05:24:58 pm »
+1

Sorry all, I've got a sinus/ear infection thing going now. The joys of parenthood, I've been sick so many times this year...
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2016, 05:27:56 pm »
+1

No problem!

The offer to help you still stands, btw. :)
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2016, 07:07:09 pm »
+5

Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1/3/6/10/15 VP if you have 1/2/3/4/5 copies of a particular Ruins.

Setup: Put a Ruins face-up sideways on each Kingdom pile. When a player gains the first card from a Kingdom pile, they also gain the Ruins on top of it.

Quote
Burial Grounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, -3 VP for each differently named card in your deck which has a copy in the trash.

Quote
Burial Mounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 3 VP per differently named card in the trash that you have a copy of.

Quote
Cenotaph
Types: Landmark
During Clean-up, you may place one card you discard from play or your hand face down underneath this.

When scoring, 1 VP per differently named card underneath this that you have a copy of.

Clarification: You may place one card underneath Cenotaph every turn.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per card in your deck which no other player has a copy of.

Quote
Deep Mine
Types: Landmark
Whenever a player plays their second action in a single turn, move 1 VP from the Province pile to here.
Whenever a player ends their turn without having played any action cards, take the VP from here.

Setup: Put 8 VP on the Province pile, plus 2 VP per player.

Quote
Golden Isles
Types: Landmark
During each player's buy phase, they may return 1 VP token for +$1. This may only be done once per turn.
When scoring, 4 VP if you have no VP tokens, and 2 VP if you have fewer than 2 VP tokens.

Setup:  Each player receives 13 VP tokens at start of game.

Quote
Middle Class
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per non-Treasure card costing exactly $3 in your deck.

Quote
New World
Types: Landmark
When scoring, if there are 2 or fewer empty Supply piles, -4 VP for each Victory card costing $6 or more in your deck.

Quote
Ossuary
Types: Landmark
When scoring, the most common card in the trash is worth +1 VP. (If it's a tie, all tied cards are.)

Setup: Trash a Duchy.

Quote
Plains
Types: Landmark
Whenever you gain a Victory card, move 2 VP from its pile to this. When you gain a Province, take the VP from this.

Setup: Put 4 VP on each non-Gathering, non-Province Victory card Supply pile per player.

Quote
Rally
Types: Landmark
Once during an opponents turn, when all of your opponent's cards are either in play or in their hand, take 1 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

Quote
Sacrificial Cenote
Types: Landmark
Whenever you resolve an attack which ends up doing nothing to other players, or otherwise resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect, +1 VP.

Quote
Senate
Types: Landmark
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no cards in your deck and at least one card in your discard pile, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

Quote
Statue
Types: Landmark
At the end of your turn, if you played 5 or more treasures that turn, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.

Quote
Swamp
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per Victory card you have.

Quote
Symposium
Types: Landmark
Once per game, at any time during the Action phase, +1 Action.
At the end of the game, if you did not use that Action, +5 VP.

Quote
Turtle Sanctuary
Types: Landmark
When you reshuffle, -1 VP.
At the end of your turn, if you did not reshuffle this turn, +1 VP

Clarification: -1 VP means you return one of your VP tokens to the supply. If you do not have any VP tokens, do nothing.
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ConMan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2016, 08:39:27 pm »
+1

Yay! Here we go!

Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1/3/6/10/15 VP if you have 1/2/3/4/5 copies of a particular Ruins.

Setup: Put a Ruins face-up sideways on each Kingdom pile. When a player gains the first card from a Kingdom pile, they also gain the Ruins on top of it.
I like this! It encapsulates the idea of a Landmark well. But, um, it's kind of an invalid entry, since it uses Ruins.

Quote
Burial Grounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, -3 VP for each differently named card in your deck which has a copy in the trash.
Kind of interesting, although it punishes you for not being thorough in your trashing which is weird - so if someone's managed to clean out a couple of Curses but you didn't get to trash your last one, that's a paddlin'. I suppose it's an incentive to throw a few engine pieces in the trash in the hopes of catching your opponent out.

Quote
Burial Mounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 3 VP per differently named card in the trash that you have a copy of.
Aaaaaaaaaand this is kind of amusing. I guess it was inevitable people would try to make the old "VP for trash" chestnut work, and the symmetry between this and Burial Grounds is cute. I think this side is better, since it encourages middling trashing - it's kind of a Dark Ages/Cornucopia crossover Landmark.

Quote
Cenotaph
Types: Landmark
During Clean-up, you may place one card you discard from play or your hand face down underneath this.

When scoring, 1 VP per differently named card underneath this that you have a copy of.

Clarification: You may place one card underneath Cenotaph every turn.
And this is in a similar vein, except (a) it keeps the cards face down so you don't necessarily know what will score which might be a bit unpopular, and (b) it provides a mechanism to do so. Having what amounts to "trash a card every turn" might be a bit too crazy.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per card in your deck which no other player has a copy of.
Personally, I'd name this "Monolith". A bit annoying to work out scores for, but otherwise quite straight forward. I guess it has the problem that you can essentially tank another player's score by buying a single card from each pile, which could be quite mean.

Quote
Deep Mine
Types: Landmark
Whenever a player plays their second action in a single turn, move 1 VP from the Province pile to here.
Whenever a player ends their turn without having played any action cards, take the VP from here.

Setup: Put 8 VP on the Province pile, plus 2 VP per player.
I'm not sure if I'd enjoy the kind of games this would encourage. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just not sure.

Quote
Golden Isles
Types: Landmark
During each player's buy phase, they may return 1 VP token for +$1. This may only be done once per turn.
When scoring, 4 VP if you have no VP tokens, and 2 VP if you have fewer than 2 VP tokens.

Setup:  Each player receives 13 VP tokens at start of game.
Cute. You'd probably want to cash in those VP almost all the time that it would let you spike, but then sometimes you'd get down to about 6 tokens and you'd have to decide whether to hoard them or go for broke. Sounds fun.

Quote
Middle Class
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per non-Treasure card costing exactly $3 in your deck.
In some games, this will presumably result in some crazy pile-driving, especially if there's a Workshop-variant around. In others, it will be a bit meh. But I suppose that's true of a few official Landmarks, too.

Quote
New World
Types: Landmark
When scoring, if there are 2 or fewer empty Supply piles, -4 VP for each Victory card costing $6 or more in your deck.
Uh, what? So in other words, if the game ends on Provinces or Colonies, then said Provinces and Colonies become rubbish (and heaven forbid you picked up a Farmlands). Which encourages three-pile endings in a crazy way. Probably too much of a penalty.

Quote
Ossuary
Types: Landmark
When scoring, the most common card in the trash is worth +1 VP. (If it's a tie, all tied cards are.)

Setup: Trash a Duchy.
Again, trying to make the trash worth something. If nothing else, it makes Duchies a little bit better, which can have some neat effects, and in a game with decent trashing it probably usually makes Copper worth a point. Possibly the most interesting case would be in those rare games where there's only non-Copper trashing (e.g. JoaT, or even Salt the Earth) and you start with Shelters so there's little incentive to have Estates at any point. This is probably not terrible.

Quote
Plains
Types: Landmark
Whenever you gain a Victory card, move 2 VP from its pile to this. When you gain a Province, take the VP from this.

Setup: Put 4 VP on each non-Gathering, non-Province Victory card Supply pile per player.
Eh, feels like a less interesting Aqueduct, I think. First two Province gains are guaranteed an extra 2 VP each, which is nice for the BM player.

Quote
Rally
Types: Landmark
Once during an opponents turn, when all of your opponent's cards are either in play or in their hand, take 1 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
So, it discourages draw-your-deck engines? Ok, I guess. I suppose it has its place.

Quote
Sacrificial Cenote
Types: Landmark
Whenever you resolve an attack which ends up doing nothing to other players, or otherwise resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect, +1 VP.
Seems like it would be hard to track. Does something like playing a card and then choosing to not do its "You may" effect count? Or is it only something like playing a Throne Room with no other cards in hand?

Quote
Senate
Types: Landmark
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no cards in your deck and at least one card in your discard pile, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
Rewards unusual shuffle-timing. I do like that.

Quote
Statue
Types: Landmark
At the end of your turn, if you played 5 or more treasures that turn, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
Rewards BM, of course. Also nice for a Counting House board. Will possibly result in some boring games (and makes a 5/2 opening even more appealing on some boards).

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.
Very nice when you wind up with too much cash and not enough Buys. I think this one will make for some very interesting decisions.

Quote
Swamp
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per Victory card you have.
Eh? I'm not hugely excited by this one.

Quote
Symposium
Types: Landmark
Once per game, at any time during the Action phase, +1 Action.
At the end of the game, if you did not use that Action, +5 VP.
This could probably best be accomplished by some kind of token, but like Golden Isles I like having a limited opportunity to exchange VP for a game advantage.

Quote
Turtle Sanctuary
Types: Landmark
When you reshuffle, -1 VP.
At the end of your turn, if you did not reshuffle this turn, +1 VP

Clarification: -1 VP means you return one of your VP tokens to the supply. If you do not have any VP tokens, do nothing.
I read the card, then I read the name, and I smiled. I like that it essentially has a floor of 0, and it interacts with other sources of VP tokens in ways that don't already exist, so I do like this one.
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2016, 08:44:16 pm »
0

In general, I'm pretty impressed with these landmarks.  I think they're much easier to balance than other card-shaped thingies so a lot of them end up looking good.  There... are a few that I might downvote for not being pure landmarks, although I do like the ideas nonetheless.  :)

Comments on selected landmarks:
Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1/3/6/10/15 VP if you have 1/2/3/4/5 copies of a particular Ruins.

Setup: Put a Ruins face-up sideways on each Kingdom pile. When a player gains the first card from a Kingdom pile, they also gain the Ruins on top of it.
As someone who loves slogs, I like the idea a lot.  Downside is that it promotes big money or mirroring pretty hard, especially early on.  I think the VP bonus could afford to be more drastic.  You probably still want to trash those ruins as much as possible.

Quote
Burial Grounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, -3 VP for each differently named card in your deck which has a copy in the trash.
Quote
Burial Mounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 3 VP per differently named card in the trash that you have a copy of.
LOL, two similar ideas with similar names.  However, the similarity may be deceptive, since +3VP is completely different from -3VP.  Burial Grounds encourages you to trash cards that only your opponents have, while Burial Mounds encourages you to trash cards that only you have.

Quote
Cenotaph
Types: Landmark
During Clean-up, you may place one card you discard from play or your hand face down underneath this.

When scoring, 1 VP per differently named card underneath this that you have a copy of.

Clarification: You may place one card underneath Cenotaph every turn.
Oh my, trashing with zero opportunity cost.  Of course everybody gets it, so maybe it works?  But this is like Donate levels of crazy.

Quote
Deep Mine
Types: Landmark
Whenever a player plays their second action in a single turn, move 1 VP from the Province pile to here.
Whenever a player ends their turn without having played any action cards, take the VP from here.

Setup: Put 8 VP on the Province pile, plus 2 VP per player.
Aqueduct and Defiled Shrine are two of my favorite landmarks, because they create an auction encouraging you to junk your deck early on.  Deep Mine is a brilliant variation on the theme.  Unlike Aqueduct and Defiled Shrine, Deep Mine has more impact in the mid- and late-game.  There are also a lot more situations where taking the VP from Deep Mine more costly to some players than to others, whereas taking the VP from Aqueduct or Defiled Shrine tends to be equally costly for all players.

Quote
New World
Types: Landmark
When scoring, if there are 2 or fewer empty Supply piles, -4 VP for each Victory card costing $6 or more in your deck.
Wow, this landmark doesn't play around.  So obviously you go for duchies, but then the game will end on piles and you should have gotten provinces.  No, you go for provinces, and then switch to duchies?  No, you let your opponent go for provinces while you get duchies, and then you end it on provinces?  This is confusing, in a good way.

Quote
Plains
Types: Landmark
Whenever you gain a Victory card, move 2 VP from its pile to this. When you gain a Province, take the VP from this.

Setup: Put 4 VP on each non-Gathering, non-Province Victory card Supply pile per player.
After gushing about Deep Mine above, I'm more lukewarm on this card.  Being forced to skip your actions, or buy a curse, now that's gonna cost you.  But buying a province?  I wanted to do that anyway.

Quote
Sacrificial Cenote
Types: Landmark
Whenever you resolve an attack which ends up doing nothing to other players, or otherwise resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect, +1 VP.
Well there are a lot of rules questions.  For instance what if I play a smithy but there are no cards left in my deck?  Or if I trash a copper with Upgrade and there are no poor houses?  Or if I want to take a VP from Sacrificial Cenote, but I ran out of physical VP chips?  It's kind of weird to think about all the different times this might trigger.

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.
This seems powerful enough that you'd just build golden decks with it all the time.  But you're draining piles in the process, so it guarantees a game end.

Quote
Symposium
Types: Landmark
Once per game, at any time during the Action phase, +1 Action.
At the end of the game, if you did not use that Action, +5 VP.
Unless that extra action is upgrading an estate into a province, it seems hard to justify. :P

Quote
Turtle Sanctuary
Types: Landmark
When you reshuffle, -1 VP.
At the end of your turn, if you did not reshuffle this turn, +1 VP

Clarification: -1 VP means you return one of your VP tokens to the supply. If you do not have any VP tokens, do nothing.
This rewards you for having a large deck and/or poor draw.  It seems to be targeted at all those deck-drawing engines, which is fair.  If deck-drawing is a dominant strategy, then punishing it can lead to interesting things.  The VP reward could be made stronger though.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 08:46:31 pm by trivialknot »
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2016, 08:57:28 pm »
+1

Yay! Landmarks. Some creative stuff here :)
One of these is by me.

Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1/3/6/10/15 VP if you have 1/2/3/4/5 copies of a particular Ruins.

Setup: Put a Ruins face-up sideways on each Kingdom pile. When a player gains the first card from a Kingdom pile, they also gain the Ruins on top of it.
Thematically funny, but kind of random. I'm not really sure how the scoring works, either - if i have two Ruined Villages and a Ruined Library, do i receive 3+1 VP? That's how i'd read it. Overall, i'd say it goes too much in the direction of playing a second game inside Dominion for me. Also, if there's a small selection of good openers, the first player advantage irks me.

Quote
Burial Grounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, -3 VP for each differently named card in your deck which has a copy in the trash.
Pretty creative. It's also good the Landmark only counts each differently named card, as otherwise this could really mess up Curses and VP cards.

Quote
Burial Mounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 3 VP per differently named card in the trash that you have a copy of.
I didn't know you could place two Landmarks in this contest? Pretty much the same as the one above, possibly even a bit sweeter.

Quote
Cenotaph
Types: Landmark
During Clean-up, you may place one card you discard from play or your hand face down underneath this.

When scoring, 1 VP per differently named card underneath this that you have a copy of.
Clarification: You may place one card underneath Cenotaph every turn.
Meh, i don't like how this anables pseudo-Copper trashing. Or Estates that cost $0, for that matter. Nice idea, but i'm not really sold on this one.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per card in your deck which no other player has a copy of.
Another creative one. Although i'm not sure how interesting it is in games with two players: If your opponent goes with another strategy, you both receive points, and if he goes with the same, none of you does. Of course there's also "buy unique cards for VP", but we already have that with Museum. In multiplayer games, the lack of symmetry will probably change the dynamic a bit, though i'm still not sure 1 VP is that much. Sure, it scales if you got lots of Scouts, but even then any player can screw you up just by "pseudo-contesting" you with one copy. Not so sure on this one.

Quote
Deep Mine
Types: Landmark
Whenever a player plays their second action in a single turn, move 1 VP from the Province pile to here.
Whenever a player ends their turn without having played any action cards, take the VP from here.

Setup: Put 8 VP on the Province pile, plus 2 VP per player.
Not sure what to say here. It's pretty much asking you to play Big Money, plus Events, maybe?

Quote
Golden Isles
Types: Landmark
During each player's buy phase, they may return 1 VP token for +$1. This may only be done once per turn.
When scoring, 4 VP if you have no VP tokens, and 2 VP if you have fewer than 2 VP tokens.

Setup:  Each player receives 13 VP tokens at start of game.
I think this would have been fine without the scoring part. If i have 2 VP, i make 1 VP by spending one VP? Okay... I guess the Scoring part here is mainly a means to have this qualify as a Landmark. All in all, i think this would have been fine as an Event (cost $0, once per turn: +1 Buy, +$1, each other player takes +1VP) and shouldn't be a Landmark.

Quote
Middle Class
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per non-Treasure card costing exactly $3 in your deck.
This will be a shame to have if there are no $3-Actions in the kingdom. Also why doesn't it just say "Silver"? It's okay, though.

Quote
New World
Types: Landmark
When scoring, if there are 2 or fewer empty Supply piles, -4 VP for each Victory card costing $6 or more in your deck.
Okay, so basically it's impossible to win by just buying all the Provinces. To actually receive their points, you need to cause a three pile. I'm not sure why the wording doesn't just say "Province", or maybe even "Province or Colony". Maybe the author didn't want Nobles or Harems in his brave new world. It's interesting and creative, though.

Quote
Ossuary
Types: Landmark
When scoring, the most common card in the trash is worth +1 VP. (If it's a tie, all tied cards are.)

Setup: Trash a Duchy.
I think the wording is a bit off and should be "When scoring, 1 VP per copy you have of the card that has the most copies in the trash." I like the setup clause.

Quote
Plains
Types: Landmark
Whenever you gain a Victory card, move 2 VP from its pile to this. When you gain a Province, take the VP from this.

Setup: Put 4 VP on each non-Gathering, non-Province Victory card Supply pile per player.
Not sure why "non gathering" should be specified, as no Gathering card has the VP type, but well, fan cards probably exist... It's funny how this does the opposite of the two before and pushes Provinces. Not exactly interesting to me, though - i mean, sure, it's going to stop certain alt-VP strategies, but those aren't what usually happens either way. Pushing Province just doesn't feel necessary to me.

Quote
Rally
Types: Landmark
Once during an opponents turn, when all of your opponent's cards are either in play or in their hand, take 1 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
Should obviously consider multiplayer games instead of mentioning "your opponent". Also, i really think this should use the Windfall wording to consider set-aside cards, cards on Islands or Tavern Mats, etc.. Apart from that, it's perfectly fine.

Quote
Sacrificial Cenote
Types: Landmark
Whenever you resolve an attack which ends up doing nothing to other players, or otherwise resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect, +1 VP.
Meh, too unclear. If i play a Smithy and only draw 2 cards because my deck is empty, do i get +1VP? Also, it's not limited in how many you get, which will allow Golden decks if you just find a card to abuse. Like, playing 4 Royal Carriages and then playing Throne Room 5 times...

Quote
Senate
Types: Landmark
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no cards in your deck and at least one card in your discard pile, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
This is weird. I get giving points for shuffling, or not shuffling, but giving points for just barely not triggering a shuffle is a bit arbitrary to me. In many games, you won't even have a way to influence this.

Quote
Statue
Types: Landmark
At the end of your turn, if you played 5 or more treasures that turn, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
Another big money one... Which also rewards $5/$2 openings, something i don't really like. It's okay-ish, but not too interesting.

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.
So, i get the debt in addition to paying the price, right? I guess that's okay. Of course, this would again just as well work as an Event: "$5<5>, +3VP, Gain a card costing up to $5."

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Swamp
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per Victory card you have.
Okay, just pushing the game towards smaller VP cards. It's good this is only one VP, but Estate being worth half as much as Duchy and Duchy being worth more than half of a Province will probably make a pretty big effect. This isn't as innocent as it first seems, i think. It's also a bit similar to Battlefield, but then that one only stays for a while and allows you to trash your Estates immediately. Reminds me of the Greed expansion, which had a card that did this.

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Symposium
Types: Landmark
Once per game, at any time during the Action phase, +1 Action.
At the end of the game, if you did not use that Action, +5 VP.
Kind of cute. I mean, i'm not sure it fits as well into the restrictions of Landmarks, but it certainly doesn't work as an Event. I like it.

Quote
Turtle Sanctuary
Types: Landmark
When you reshuffle, -1 VP.
At the end of your turn, if you did not reshuffle this turn, +1 VP
Clarification: -1 VP means you return one of your VP tokens to the supply. If you do not have any VP tokens, do nothing.
Meh. I think instead of giving -1VP, it should just give everyone else +1VP, to avoid the unfortunate interaction with VP-token cards. Other than that, it's a bit similar to Rally in that it punishes drawing a lot of your deck.

Edited the messed up quote at the end.

ConMan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2016, 09:10:38 pm »
+3

Quote
Senate
Types: Landmark
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no cards in your deck and at least one card in your discard pile, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
I just realised that the entire point of this card is to enable a Chancellor Golden Deck. I don't know if that's stupid or genius.
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math

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2016, 09:23:43 pm »
+1

Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1/3/6/10/15 VP if you have 1/2/3/4/5 copies of a particular Ruins.

Setup: Put a Ruins face-up sideways on each Kingdom pile. When a player gains the first card from a Kingdom pile, they also gain the Ruins on top of it.

This seems like a lot of work for too little VP payoff; I'd be likely to trash the Ruins anyway.  The most they can be worth is 3 VP per copy, and you don't want free Duchies in your deck at the start of the game.  It does have a second-player-advantage effect like Tax, but I think this is too large a penalty, especially when it only affects Kingdom piles.

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Burial Grounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, -3 VP for each differently named card in your deck which has a copy in the trash.

Quote
Burial Mounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 3 VP per differently named card in the trash that you have a copy of.

Were these two submitted by the same person, or by two people collaborating?  If not, that's a weird coincidence that they have extremely similar names and exactly opposite effects.  It's an interesting effect, but Burial Grounds is a little too close to Wolf Den for my liking, and its effect would be minimal - you want to trash all your Copper and Estates anyways.  Burial Mounds affects the game more in terms of strategy; that last Copper is also worth 3 points now, so you might not want to trash it.

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Cenotaph
Types: Landmark
During Clean-up, you may place one card you discard from play or your hand face down underneath this.

When scoring, 1 VP per differently named card underneath this that you have a copy of.

Clarification: You may place one card underneath Cenotaph every turn.

This is interesting, but I'm not a fan of "global rules change" effects on Landmarks, and this seems more like that than a VP boost.  The VP on this card will have almost no effect in most games; you'll just use it for the free trashing.

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Citadel
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per card in your deck which no other player has a copy of.

This is an outtake (see the Secret History for Museum).  Also, it doesn't seem to have much of an effect unless you get an entire pile.

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Deep Mine
Types: Landmark
Whenever a player plays their second action in a single turn, move 1 VP from the Province pile to here.
Whenever a player ends their turn without having played any action cards, take the VP from here.

Setup: Put 8 VP on the Province pile, plus 2 VP per player.

Interesting idea.  This is essentially a boost to non-engine strategies, but it's a small one; most engines would be happy to give their opponents 1 VP per turn.  In an engine mirror, this would get interesting; when there is 5-6 VP on the pile, you start considering doing nothing on your turn to take it.  I don't like the fact that the VP on the Province pile has nothing to do with Provinces, but that's just a thematic issue. 

Quote
Golden Isles
Types: Landmark
During each player's buy phase, they may return 1 VP token for +$1. This may only be done once per turn.
When scoring, 4 VP if you have no VP tokens, and 2 VP if you have fewer than 2 VP tokens.

Setup:  Each player receives 13 VP tokens at start of game.

This could antisynergize with other Empires cards that give VP, since it gives you points for not having VP tokens.  On the other hand, if the game lasts long enough, you could use those other VP tokens for money - but by then you'll probably want the VP more, and it's only once per turn.

Quote
Middle Class
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per non-Treasure card costing exactly $3 in your deck.

This feels too much like Obelisk for $3 actions.

Quote
New World
Types: Landmark
When scoring, if there are 2 or fewer empty Supply piles, -4 VP for each Victory card costing $6 or more in your deck.

I really like this one.  It seems a bit game-warping, but that's normal for Landmarks (see Fountain, Keep, and Wall).  If you have Provinces, you want a 3-pile ending, but if you are buying a bunch of Action cards you can't buy Provinces.

Quote
Ossuary
Types: Landmark
When scoring, the most common card in the trash is worth +1 VP. (If it's a tie, all tied cards are.)

Setup: Trash a Duchy.

This doesn't need the setup rule; cards get trashed in most games.  Also, the VP bonus is much too small.  You don't want to keep your Copper even if it's worth 1 VP.

Quote
Plains
Types: Landmark
Whenever you gain a Victory card, move 2 VP from its pile to this. When you gain a Province, take the VP from this.

Setup: Put 4 VP on each non-Gathering, non-Province Victory card Supply pile per player.

This seems a bit quirky.  It could easily break Duchy dances in Big Money, and it makes Duchies worth 5VP in an engine.  It's a cool idea.

Quote
Rally
Types: Landmark
Once during an opponents turn, when all of your opponent's cards are either in play or in their hand, take 1 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

Most engines would be happy to give 1VP per turn to a non-engine player, and you can get around this by not drawing the last card or two.  It would need rules clarification - if I play Warehouse and draw the last three cards, can you take 1VP before I discard?  What if you forget?  The wording is also unclear; the way it's worded could mean that this only works once per game.

Quote
Sacrificial Cenote
Types: Landmark
Whenever you resolve an attack which ends up doing nothing to other players, or otherwise resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect, +1 VP.

This would need way too many rules clarifications.  What if I play a Great Hall (or any draw card) when I have no cards left in my deck?  What if I play Hunting Party, draw a card, and then have a copy in my hand of each unique card in my deck?  What if I play a Miser, choose to put a Copper onto my mat, and don't have any Coppers in my hand?  What if I play Sage and don't find a card costing $3 or more?  What if I play a Minion and get +$2, doing nothing to the other players?  What if I play a Fortune Teller and the top card of my opponent's deck is an Estate?  What if I play a Band of Misfits and there are no Action cards left costing $4 or less?  What if I play a King's Court with no Action cards in my hand?  What if I play a Ruined Library with my -1 Card token on my deck?  What if I play an Ironworks and then reveal a Trader to gain a Silver instead?  What if I trash a Squire and there are no Attack cards in the Supply?  It's way too complicated to work.

Quote
Senate
Types: Landmark
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no cards in your deck and at least one card in your discard pile, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

This could be interesting.  Deck-draw engines would need a way to discard cards from hand, but those are fairly common.  Big Money strategies would have a harder time, but buying cantrips could help.

Quote
Statue
Types: Landmark
At the end of your turn, if you played 5 or more treasures that turn, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

I like this one.  Empires has a Prosperity-type theme, and this rewards decks that can play multiple Treasures per turn.  It actually helps engines almost as much as Big Money, although terminal draw BM will like it.

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.

I like this one.  I would like it better with a limit to the number of VP you can get from it, but it's great as it is.

Quote
Swamp
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per Victory card you have.

Meh, a bit boring.

Quote
Symposium
Types: Landmark
Once per game, at any time during the Action phase, +1 Action.
At the end of the game, if you did not use that Action, +5 VP.

This is weird.  How can you track whether or not you've used it?  Why can't you just take the VP at the end of the turn?  Other than that, I like it.

Quote
Turtle Sanctuary
Types: Landmark
When you reshuffle, -1 VP.
At the end of your turn, if you did not reshuffle this turn, +1 VP

Clarification: -1 VP means you return one of your VP tokens to the supply. If you do not have any VP tokens, do nothing.

In an engine, this antisynergizes with many other Empires cards, since you will have to return the VP they give you.  Donald mentioned that problem in the last Empires landmark outtake.
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math

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2016, 09:29:33 pm »
0

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.

I just realized that this Landmark provides the first possible way to get Potion-Debt (by buying Possession).
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2016, 11:06:40 pm »
0

- Yeah, it's pretty funny that we got "Burial Grounds" and "Burial Mounds" with the exact opposite effect (they are even worded in opposite ways). Also agree the Burial Mounds is better (which seems to be the concensus so far).

- Archaeologist might be kind of neat (actually I've been going back and forth in my head about whether it would be fun at all, but at least currently I've settled on the opinion that it looks fun). Unfortunately, as ConMan pointed out, it breaks the rules of the contest, so no go.

-Cenotaph would work much better as an event with a cheap cost to put a card under it. I don't think it works well as a landmark.

- I'm undecided about Golden Isles. I like the idea, but I really don't like the "when scoring..." line. I think it could still qualify as a landmark without it because of the Setup VP.

- I think New World may as well say "In games using this, the game only ends if three piles are empty (and not nessesarily when the province or colony pile is empty)." (Although it could be fun to use as-is with Provinces and Ritual...)

- I like Ossuary, but I think it would be better if the VP bonus was 2. (Of course then it has the not-unlikely possibility of changing curses into estates as long as you trash a certain numbr of them, which isn't nesessarily a bad thing, but it might be better to exclude curses anyway.)

- Plains: I agree with Asper that there's no need to boost Provinces.

- Sacrificial Cenote: There's a good idea in there somewhere, but I agree with others that it's way too vague as-is.

- Swamp isn't one of my favorites here, but I do like that it penalizes strategies that focus on VP chips.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 11:08:14 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2016, 01:09:25 am »
0

I disagree with above that Ossuary should be 2 VP.  I think more often than not, the most common card in the trash will be copper.  You probably don't want a landmark that gives 2 VP for each copper, coppers aren't that much fun.
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ConMan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2016, 01:24:01 am »
0

I disagree with above that Ossuary should be 2 VP.  I think more often than not, the most common card in the trash will be copper.  You probably don't want a landmark that gives 2 VP for each copper, coppers aren't that much fun.
I agree. Not to mention, there's already a Landmark that gives you points for having lots of Copper, in addition to Gardens which is approximately points-for-Copper too.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2016, 04:18:03 am »
+1

I didn't submit anything to this one!  Didn't have any ideas... except I do now that I'm reading these entries. D'oh.

Hadn't read others' comments before writing mine.  I didn't consider whether the Landmark would be better as an Event, but I intend to do that before voting.

Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1/3/6/10/15 VP if you have 1/2/3/4/5 copies of a particular Ruins.

Setup: Put a Ruins face-up sideways on each Kingdom pile. When a player gains the first card from a Kingdom pile, they also gain the Ruins on top of it.

It's interesting, but Ruins aren't part of Empires.  (Also it messes with the size of the Ruins pile in 6p games, but 6p is terrible anyway so I guess that's fine.)

Quote
Burial Grounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, -3 VP for each differently named card in your deck which has a copy in the trash.

My first impression is that this could cost a lot of points just from minor bad luck, like maybe you Chapel down but just have one Copper hanging around.

Quote
Burial Mounds
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 3 VP per differently named card in the trash that you have a copy of.

Funny, this works the other way around from Burial Grounds.  And they rhyme.  Did the submitters plan this?  I like this version, because bad luck doesn't cost you points.  On the contrary, the player gets to make the choice to (for example) keep an extra Copper for the points.

Quote
Cenotaph
Types: Landmark
During Clean-up, you may place one card you discard from play or your hand face down underneath this.

When scoring, 1 VP per differently named card underneath this that you have a copy of.

Clarification: You may place one card underneath Cenotaph every turn.

I like this one.  Free "trashing" is an interesting rules change, and it can add some tension even if all players are keeping track of the score.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per card in your deck which no other player has a copy of.

I appreciate the basic idea, but I don't think it would work well in practice.  It can get political, and either it makes little impact (everyone has at least one copy of all the relevant cards) or it makes scoring tedious as you double check that you really were the only one who bought Scout.

Quote
Deep Mine
Types: Landmark
Whenever a player plays their second action in a single turn, move 1 VP from the Province pile to here.
Whenever a player ends their turn without having played any action cards, take the VP from here.

Setup: Put 8 VP on the Province pile, plus 2 VP per player.

It should use "you" to be consistent with other Landmarks.  As written, it doesn't say who takes the VP. :P

While it's cute that you activate by playing actions and then collect by not playing actions, I'm not sure if it would be fun... I guess the hope is that it creates a game of chicken where two engines keep adding VP until somebody cuts their engine to grab the VP?  I don't like that it discourages playing actions, but I guess Baths is very similar.

It kind of bugs me that the VP are put on the Province pile but have nothing to do with Provinces.  Also not sure why it has 8VP + 2VP per player instead of the standard 6VP per player.

Quote
Golden Isles
Types: Landmark
During each player's buy phase, they may return 1 VP token for +$1. This may only be done once per turn.
When scoring, 4 VP if you have no VP tokens, and 2 VP if you have fewer than 2 VP tokens.

Setup:  Each player receives 13 VP tokens at start of game.

The correct pronoun would help here too: "Once per turn, you may return 1 VP token for +$1".  Doesn't seem necessary to restrict to the Buy phase.

The 2VP clause seems like superfluous complexity.  The only difference it makes is if you have exactly 1VP token, you get +2VP.  Well, it should also get you +2VP if you have no VP tokens, but that can just be added to the first part (i.e. 6VP if you have no VP tokens).

Overall, I think the basic idea is interesting but the way it works strikes me as un-Landmark-like somehow.  I dunno.  Maybe it's just all the extra complexity that I suggested removing.

Quote
Middle Class
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per non-Treasure card costing exactly $3 in your deck.

Weird.  I don't know how this would play out.  That's probably a good thing.  I guess it would be highly dependent on what $3 cards are available.  Maybe too similar to Obelisk though?

Quote
New World
Types: Landmark
When scoring, if there are 2 or fewer empty Supply piles, -4 VP for each Victory card costing $6 or more in your deck.

I do not like how much this nerfs Provinces and even alt VP like Fairgrounds or Nobles.  It sounds like this would awkwardly and artificially lead to 3-pile endings.

Quote
Ossuary
Types: Landmark
When scoring, the most common card in the trash is worth +1 VP. (If it's a tie, all tied cards are.)

Setup: Trash a Duchy.

The wording needs some work, but I think the idea is cool.  I especially appreciate the setup trashing, so this Event is relevant even on boards with no trashing.  In fact, if Burial Mounds wins, I'd like to see it get the same setup clause.

Quote
Plains
Types: Landmark
Whenever you gain a Victory card, move 2 VP from its pile to this. When you gain a Province, take the VP from this.

Setup: Put 4 VP on each non-Gathering, non-Province Victory card Supply pile per player.

The obvious comparisons are Aqueduct and Defiled Shrine.  Aqueduct moves VP for Treasure; Shrine moves it for action cards; Plains move for Victory cards.  I'm OK with that, but the specific numbers here mean that Plains adds much less potential VP than the official two.

Aqueduct VP is claimed by gaining any VP card; Shrine VP is claimed by buying a Curse; Plains VP is claimed by gaining a Province.  It's worth noting that the conditions for the official Landmarks is easy to achieve, so you can pretty much always take the VP whenever you want.  Plains, however, is not as easy to hit, so there's some extra luck there.

Two other things worth noting: VP is less likely to build up on Plains, because Provinces are usually gained before Duchies or Estates.  If you get into Duchy dancing, this does some weird stuff by buffing the next Province buy and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.  It also weakens alt VP, which I think would make games less interesting overall.

With all that in mind, I think Aqueduct and Defiled Shrine cover this general concept well enough already.

Quote
Rally
Types: Landmark
Once during an opponents turn, when all of your opponent's cards are either in play or in their hand, take 1 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

What about on various mats?

Seriously though, I don't think this Landmark would impact a game much.  Drawing your deck is so powerful that it's probably worth giving up the 1VP every turn you do it.  Maybe if it was the standard 2VP instead?  Or more?  Still not sure though.

Quote
Sacrificial Cenote
Types: Landmark
Whenever you resolve an attack which ends up doing nothing to other players, or otherwise resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect, +1 VP.

I feel like this would create lots of rules questions for not a lot of gain, because "doing nothing" and "prevented from having its printed effect" are not well defined.  Obvious situations where it's intended to work:

- Attack blocked by Moat, Lighthouse, Champion
- Militia and similar discard attacks when others have already discarded
- Draw card when you've already drawn your deck
- Moneylender with no Copper, Throne Room with no action, etc. (?)

Some less clear cases:

- Torturer when Curses are empty (opponents still made a choice)
- Spy when you don't have them discard, or the Spy after that (they still reveal the top card)
- Optional effects that you can decline, like King's Court or Spice Merchant (it's your choice to decline)
- Cards whose effects are only partially prevented (e.g. Shanty Town)

Even without the rules confusion, I think it's too niche and won't make a difference in most games.

Quote
Senate
Types: Landmark
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no cards in your deck and at least one card in your discard pile, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

Too specific, which ultimately makes it too random for my taste.  It gives you a bonus for exactly drawing to the end of your deck without triggering a reshuffle, but players just don't usually have that much control.  Alternatively, you could draw your whole deck and then gain/discard something, but that won't be a common case.

Quote
Statue
Types: Landmark
At the end of your turn, if you played 5 or more treasures that turn, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.

Not a strategy I want to see rewarded, at least not so blatantly.

Quote
Stockpile
Types: Landmark
When you buy a card costing at least $5, you may take it's price in debt. If you do, +3 VP.

Errant apostrophe!  How does this work with buying Possession?

I think the idea is neat, but would like to see it restricted to non-Victory cards just to prevent the free bonus 3VP when buying the last Province.

Quote
Swamp
Types: Landmark
When scoring, 1 VP per Victory card you have.

Simplicity is nice and all, but this is still kind of... boring?

Quote
Symposium
Types: Landmark
Once per game, at any time during the Action phase, +1 Action.
At the end of the game, if you did not use that Action, +5 VP.

Simple, but with an interesting decision to make.  I like this a lot more than Golden Isles for its elegance, and I think having it grant +1 Action is better than +$1 as it sets itself apart from coin tokens.

Let me suggest a variant though:

Any time during your Action phase, you may return 5VP for +1 Action.
Setup: Each player takes 5VP.


This removes the small tracking issue and also adds a small but important wrinkle with +VP cards.

If this wins, I hope that playtesting is done to find the VP value that creates the most tension.  5VP might be big enough that it's usually a no-brainer to just keep it.

Quote
Turtle Sanctuary
Types: Landmark
When you reshuffle, -1 VP.
At the end of your turn, if you did not reshuffle this turn, +1 VP

Clarification: -1 VP means you return one of your VP tokens to the supply. If you do not have any VP tokens, do nothing.

Instead of needing that clarification, why not just say "return 1VP"?

So this rewards you for building a big sloggy deck that reshuffles as little as possible.  That sounds like it could be interesting.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2016, 08:20:43 am »
0

Quote
Ossuary
Types: Landmark
When scoring, the most common card in the trash is worth +1 VP. (If it's a tie, all tied cards are.)

Setup: Trash a Duchy.

Do you have to trash the Duchy 'pon the left hand side?
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faust

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2016, 09:03:55 am »
0

Some thoughts:

- Archeologist: I don't like that it encourages BM that strongly. Also, Ruins shouldn't be there I think? Minor complaint is that it uses "Kingdom piles", which Donald X. avoided.

- Burial Grounds/Mounds: I like the latter better; the former just encourages trashing, which you want to be doing anyway. I guess Burial Grounds might open up a way to mess with your opponent's deck by trashing one of their key cards. But I'm not sure if that is fun interaction; it encourages mirror play. Burial Mounds on the other hand changes the way you play the game, which is what you want out of a Landmark.

- Cenotaph: Similar to Burial Mounds, but it does some weird other thing instead of trashing. Not sure how much I like that; it just gives every game easy pseudo-trashing. 1 VP per differently named card seems insignificant. Museum already gives 2 VP.

- Citadel: Interesting, but usually in a non-mirror both players will get the benefit and in a mirror neither. I guess it's more interesting with 3+ players.

- Deep Mine: Not sure what the VP are doing on the Province pile, but I guess they have to be somewhere. It seems not very elegant though. Looks like a fancy Baths, which is fine, but I think I'd like something more original.

- Golden Isles: That is... strange. Like, lots of Baker coins. Getting VP for not having VP tokens seems counterintuitive, but I guess there's no issue with it. I imagine that it's a huge game accelerator, and I'm not sure I like that.

- Middle Class: How is the Middle Class a Landmark? Oh well. It looks similar to an Obelisk that only counts $3 cards. I think Obelisk is a better implementation of this idea.

- New World: This is interesting. And, I imagine, really hard to figure out. I like it.

- Ossuary: I think there's a wording issue, as noone benefits if the card in the trash is worth +1VP. I think it will most often turn Coppers into small Harems? That could be interesting enough.

- Plains: On first glance, I think that this often favors the player who is already ahead. That's problematic.

- Rally: The concept is somewhat interesting, but I'm not sure how you'd get around fast play to make your opponents forget to take the VP. That doesn't seem fun. On the other hand, you also don't want to remind them. I don't like that aspect.

- Sacrificial Cenote: This just screams for lenghty explanations. So each time I play a Minion for +2$, I get VP? Does it mean "do nothing to all other players" or just one? What does "resolve a card that is prevented from having its printed effect" even mean? If I play a Smithy with only 2 cards in my deck, do I get the VP?

- Senate: A strange condition, and almost always, the first 2n VP simply get taken after turn 2. Seems luck-based.

- Statue: So it encourages money strategies? I would make it 6 treasures in order to not give too big a boost to 5/2 openings. It's kind of iffy with Counterfeit and Spoils, maybe it's possible to instead count Treasures in play?

- Stockpile: Works better as an Event I think. "Cost $5,D5. You may overpay debt for this. Gain a card costing up to $5 plus $1 per 2D you overpaid. +3VP."

- Swamp: Is to Silk Road what Museum is to Fairgrounds. Kinda interesting, but not super exciting.

- Symposium: There should probably be a token to keep track of this. Or maybe just give the option to spend 5 VP for 1 action, and give you 5 VP to strat with?

- Turtle Sanctuary: Weird. It enourages very simply strategies, but I don't think it's impactful enough to make a difference against a deck-drawing engine.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2016, 10:29:08 am »
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So statue benefits 5/2, but doesn't basilica and baths as well?
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2016, 10:30:36 am »
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I like to hear other people's impressions.  Here are a couple points where I'm disagreeing:
Quote
Statue
Types: Landmark
At the end of your turn, if you played 5 or more treasures that turn, take 2 VP from here.

Setup: Put 6 VP here per player.
Another big money one... Which also rewards $5/$2 openings, something i don't really like. It's okay-ish, but not too interesting.
I think an engine with lots of draw will more consistently be able to play 5 treasures.  So either an engine with treasure as payload, or big money with draw.  Although, those VP might go fairly quickly, and BM+Smithy might be the fastest way to pick them up early on.

- Burial Grounds/Mounds: I like the latter better; the former just encourages trashing, which you want to be doing anyway. I guess Burial Grounds might open up a way to mess with your opponent's deck by trashing one of their key cards. But I'm not sure if that is fun interaction; it encourages mirror play. Burial Mounds on the other hand changes the way you play the game, which is what you want out of a Landmark.
I dispute that one of these landmarks encourages mirror play, while the other does not.  So imagine a basic situation, Alice has a Baron, but Bob does not, and there's a Baron in the trash.  Under Burial Grounds, Alice wants a mirror (by trashing all Barons), and Bob does not.  Under Burial Mounds, Bob wants a mirror (by gaining a Baron), and Alice does not.  Either way, mirror play benefits only some of the players.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 8: Landmark (Voting!)
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2016, 03:59:46 pm »
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Not sure about Archeologist's Ruins set collection thingy, the VP seem too low. Perhaps with quadratic (1/4/9/16/...) instead of sum N scoring this would be better.

Burial Grounds provides some nice interaction as the opponent can trash a single copy card from his deck in order to hurt you.

Cenotaph
reminds me of Chapel from San Juan and even more of Valley of the Kings, a deckbuilder with this very perma-trash-for-VP function. Not sure that it works well in Dominion.

I like Citadel but not the post-game book-keeping it implies.

Deep Mine
is bad; virtually all it does is to incentivize BM.

I don't like Golden Isles. Without any VP token providing cards this plays far too automatically.

There are better ways than New World to incentivize three pile endings.

Ossuary is simple and good.

Not sure about Plains. All it seems to do is to make alt-VP bad.

I like Stockpile. Seems a but like Distant Lands, you get something similar to Duchy that doesn't stay in your deck for a similar price.

Swamp is an idea probably everybody had. I think it is fine to make cheaper Victory cards more interesting but I also think that it is too bland.

Symposium is basically just an Action token which you can "cash in" at the end of the game for 5VP. Seems like a lot but then again there could be crucial junctions at the game which might make you wanna spend it. Could lead to an agonizing decision, could feel totally flat. Hard to say.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 04:01:34 pm by tristan »
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