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[BaruMonkey]

Here's the idea: Before the game starts, and after the kingdom cards are laid out, each player is dealt 3 estates. Then, secretly, each player takes into their deck as many coppers as they want (perhaps limiting it to "your share" of coppers: total coppers divided by number of players). Play then continues as normal.

What do people think of this idea? How would it play out? Where would it be broken?

[GendoIkari]

Here's the idea: Before the game starts, and after the kingdom cards are laid out, each player is dealt 3 estates. Then, secretly, each player takes into their deck as many coppers as they want (perhaps limiting it to "your share" of coppers: total coppers divided by number of players). Play then continues as normal.

What do people think of this idea? How would it play out? Where would it be broken?

If Duke is on the board, I'll take the absolute maximum number, and just purchase a Duchy on almost every single turn. 

Otherwise, though, this seems like it could work as an interesting strategy point. I wonder what the optimal number to take is?

[Tables]

I'm guessing it's generally going to be 7. I was actually thinking about this a little earlier today. With 6 or less, you reshuffle after turn 1. That's not necessarily bad, but you're also likely to be reshuffling only a $2-4 card into your deck (the chance of hitting $5 is 1/21) before having two turns with that deck - assuming you get a Silver, your turns 2-3 are somewhere between a 6/2 (I believe a 1/6 chance), 5/3 (reasonably likely, can't be bothered to calculate it explicitly) or 4/4 (also likely, I think even moreso). Overall it means you're constantly shuffling a turn earlier but have a weaker deck each shuffle, which probably balances itself out. HOWEVER there's a good chance (I make it 5/42, or about 12%) you'll hit $2 on that first shuffle, which often just means you're permanently a turn behind. And I think that risk makes it slightly weaker.

Other values have a similar problem with shuffling, but start with even less buying power.
Could this be tested using Geronimoo's game-state simulator? Just setting one persons deck to 2-6 coppers and 3 estates, against 7 coppers 3 estates?

[Davio]

For BMU, the optimum seems to be 4 Coppers, which does about 53% - 38% (9% ties).

You could be unfortunate and start 2C-3E, 2C(reshuffle)-3E, but overall, you'll be grabbing Silvers and Golds soon enough.

[chwhite]

Well, if Fool's Gold is out I'd start with two coppers for sure.

[popsofctown]

10 coppers is neat because the second reshuffle will be exactly 3 turns, assuming you don't have any +cards.  And if the board is copper friendly enough that you are even considering more than seven, you probably don't

[Morgrim7]

Would copper count as a pile towards the end?
Horrible with goons…cursers become less valuable…engines would be next to impossible without heavy trashing...

[eHalcyon]

Would copper count as a pile towards the end?
Horrible with goons…cursers become less valuable…engines would be next to impossible without heavy trashing...

Depending on the setup, engines could become way EASIER to set up, without needing to trash down.  You take the minimum number of coppers needed to start setting up and go from there.

[O]

Counting house becomes a much more interesting 5$.

[eHalcyon]

Gardens!

[Galzria]

University + Scrying Pool becomes fun quickly, especially if workshop is on the board. Then you only need to hit 3 early to kick-start. 4 might still be optimal however.

[Geronimoo]

This is very easy to set up in my simulator. Just set the Start State to what you want (tab next to description in the bot editor).

Here's an example where I set the BMU bot to start with 4 Coppers and 3 Estates. It beats the regular opening 53-38:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Big Money Ultimate (4 Copper start)"
 author="Geronimoo"
 description="The optimized strategy that buys only treasure.">
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
  <start_state>
    <hand contents=""/>
    <discard contents=""/>
    <drawdeck contents="4 Copper, 3 Estate" shuffle="true"/>
  </start_state>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>


[Ozle]

I'd probably just take 2 and then proceed to buy chapel....

[Morgrim7]

Would copper count as a pile towards the end?
Horrible with goons…cursers become less valuable…engines would be next to impossible without heavy trashing...

Depending on the setup, engines could become way EASIER to set up, without needing to trash down.  You take the minimum number of coppers needed to start setting up and go from there.

Right. I was thinking if you took all the coppers and devided them by the number of players so in 2 player you woud have about thirty each player.