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Author Topic: Make an attack that dishes out Debt  (Read 22069 times)

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math

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2016, 04:52:55 pm »
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I agree with eHalcyon.  For example, if another player player plays a Minion (discarding and drawing) and you reveal a Moat, do you draw 4 cards?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2016, 05:37:28 pm »
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I agree with eHalcyon.  For example, if another player player plays a Minion (discarding and drawing) and you reveal a Moat, do you draw 4 cards?

It's more a question of the interaction of Moat/Lighthouse vs. Attack-Durations and theoretical "while in play" clauses that affect opponents.  As it is, I think the "until your next turn" wording on Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods and Enchantress is just as ambiguous, but they have official FAQs clarifying how the interaction works.  I believe the clarification there works just as well for "while in play", but it's debatable.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2016, 06:04:22 pm »
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Unfortunately debt is a rather nasty drawback if it can be stacked indefinitely on others.
I don't think so. Cutpurse, while being weaker than a Debt attack (but also hitting earlier in the game when you have less coins), is not the end of the world.
Torturer shows us that as long as you give the defending player the option to do something else, basically what you suggested, stackable attacks are fine.
That probably depends on the number of players involved and/or whether there are ways to play multiple Cutpurses in a turn. Individually, sure, Cutpurses are somewhat annoying and become trivial later in the game. Having multiple plays of Cutpurse happen before your turn will probably start to become aggravating. Having that happen to you in multiple consecutive turns will probably make you stop playing altogether.

My opinion is probably influenced by the groups that I normally play with as well. If we get a board that has Torturer and consistent action splitters, or Torturer in games involving 3 or more players, we're likely to replace one of the cards with a protective Reaction, or just replace Torturer itself. I don't mind oppressive combos (particularly since I gravitate towards them ;D) but I've seen other players feel otherwise, and I would probably feel bad if I drove someone to never play Dominion ever again just because I like Torturer + Village a little too much.
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Erick648

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2016, 07:14:32 pm »
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Quote
Usurer Part 2-$5
Action-Attack
Gain a silver, putting it into your hand
Everyone may discard 2 copper. If they do not: gain a copper, putting it in their hand. Each that did gain a debt token.
Usurer part two is not more disastrous for a deck than a kc-d mountebank, I think.
I considered having the Copper be gained to your opponent's hands, but then it's usually the same as if there was no debt and they gained the Copper to their discard because they'll just play the Copper to pay off the debt.  Exceptions (e.g., if you play a handsize attack, if they trash or discard the Copper, if they're drawing their deck so they'd draw the Copper anyway, etc.) are too minor to be worth it.

The issue with handing out debt, is that if I KC a few attacks every turn, I could in principle hand out debt faster than the average payoff of my opponent's deck.  Even worse if my opponent can do the same to me at the same time.  It's better to hand out debt on buy.  In principle, this could cause an opponent to take several turns to buy a card and pay off its debt.  But it cannot pin a deck unless the deck has no payoff whatsoever.

Right, and I think the danger of allowing you to KC the attack unchecked is that if you pile on enough debt, it will take so long to pay off each single bought card that it may as well be a pin.

Good point about KC, although it would be hard to keep it up absent Watchtower or something due to the Silver-gaining.  Maybe change it to:
Usurer
(4) Action - Attack
Gain a Silver.________________
When you discard this from play, if you have a Silver in play, each other player gains a Copper.  Each player who gained a Copper in this way takes <1>.

That way, it can't be KC-ed.  You could still play several copies a turn (although, again, you'd have to deal with the Silver), but IMO, that's no more of a threat than a Bureaucrat pin.

My only problem with an on-buy debt attack is that an Event that does this already exists (Tax).  While there's room for both (cf. Embargo and Swamp Hag), I'd rather see something different first.
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trivialknot

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2016, 10:31:47 pm »
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The issue with handing out debt, is that if I KC a few attacks every turn, I could in principle hand out debt faster than the average payoff of my opponent's deck.  Even worse if my opponent can do the same to me at the same time.  It's better to hand out debt on buy.  In principle, this could cause an opponent to take several turns to buy a card and pay off its debt.  But it cannot pin a deck unless the deck has no payoff whatsoever.

Right, and I think the danger of allowing you to KC the attack unchecked is that if you pile on enough debt, it will take so long to pay off each single bought card that it may as well be a pin.

Good point about KC, although it would be hard to keep it up absent Watchtower or something due to the Silver-gaining.  Maybe change it to:
Usurer
(4) Action - Attack
Gain a Silver.________________
When you discard this from play, if you have a Silver in play, each other player gains a Copper.  Each player who gained a Copper in this way takes <1>.

That way, it can't be KC-ed.  You could still play several copies a turn (although, again, you'd have to deal with the Silver), but IMO, that's no more of a threat than a Bureaucrat pin.

My only problem with an on-buy debt attack is that an Event that does this already exists (Tax).  While there's room for both (cf. Embargo and Swamp Hag), I'd rather see something different first.
Yeah, I agree.  If the attack gains a silver, that makes a pin far less likely.

KC is just one situation though.  Another is a multiplayer game, perhaps combined with other attacks.  I remember one time Donald X said that the problem with Highwayman (precursor to Bridge Troll) was that it hurt a lot when combined with Militia.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2016, 11:50:35 pm »
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I think the bigger problem with Usurer is simply that it's a Copper junker.  That's always been a tricky concept because of the size of the Copper pile, so official Copper junkers always come with checks built in (e.g. Mountebank has a built-in Moat, Jester requires flipping a Copper).
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Asper

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2016, 01:38:39 am »
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Factory
<6> - Action-Attack-Duration
Until the end of your next turn, cards cost <1> more.
At the start of your next turn:
Gain a card costing up to $6<6>.

With this setup, pinning the other players will pin yourself as well.  It discourages buying for everybody but is a gainer itself, yet it will fail to gain anything at all if it is excessively stacked.  Its cost is such that it cannot gain itself.

As you asked for feedback on factory:
How would you pin yourself? Gaining a card with Debt cost does not make you gain the Debt tokens. With this, you can make cards cost up to <6> more and still gain stuff.

I'm not a fan of the self-harming aspect nor the Workshop interaction, but as you want those, what am i supposed to say. The cost increase keeps you from gaining copies of the card itself, but of course you could have had that by simply limiting the cost of cards you can gain to $6<5>, too.

I'm sorry if i have nothing nice to say. I suggested a wording that stays in line with the convention, and i think breaking the convention for the sole fear of King's Court madness (which is a given whatever you use KC on) would be a poor choice. Especially as i already explained that even a stunning <30> on a pile can't really lock out your opponent. I understand you want to use the self-harming aspect to make sure you can't really lock out another player, but if you consider how absurdly hard it is to actually play the card that often, i really don't understand your problem here. Also, if you actually manage to King's Court the card ten times, i can still just postpone buying a card until my next turn, where you can't possibly play the card at all. And even if you KC 5 of these every turn, a debt of <15> is quite possible to overcome. And here we are talking about an ad-absurdum situation already.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2016, 03:18:54 am »
+1

I already said from the very start that debt can't really lock out anybody:

The two main problem with cost increasers is that they can lock people out of the game (can't even buy Copper!) and they're confusing with cost reducers.  Using debt solves both of those problems.

so you don't need to explain it back to me multiple times. :\

The pin to fear isn't a hard pin, but one in which it takes too long to pay off the debt each time.  If each single item I buy forces me to pay <15> or more over the next 2-3 turns, that's just so painful and slow.  Unless the other player already has an incredible deck, they may as well be pinned and the game is just no fun at all from then on.

Factory is such that you can stack up to <6>, which is considerable but not as harsh for the other player (it's also just an initial idea; a different number could be better).  Going beyond that to set this soft pin on other players does the same to you, because Factory will fail to gain a card on the next turn (everything costs too much debt) and buying a card will rack up just as much debt for you as for anybody else.  You're just making the effort to play Factory a lot for no benefit at that point.  Thus, pinning the other players will pin yourself as well.

You make a good point that only half can be played each turn, so it's not as bad as I've been thinking.  But it's still not as easy to brush off as you've been making it out to be.  Being debt means players can't truly be locked out, so the concept is workable -- that was the premise from the start.  But the threat of a big debt burden is still very dangerous; it needs to be considered and should probably be mitigated.  Surely you can acknowledge that?  It's not an absurd situation especially if you consider games with 3+ players.  Factory might not be a good answer to that either, but I'm just suggesting alternative approaches to mitigate the danger of an unfun game where players can only buy one card every third turn.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2016, 03:56:06 am »
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Quote
Some cool name-$Reasonable Price
Some generic benefit.
---
When you discard from play, all other players gain <1>. They may reveal a copper. If they do not, they gain a copper.

That way, if you are afraid you won't be able to pay the debt, you can self junk yourself with copper.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2016, 04:22:37 am »
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Quote
Clearing House-$5
Now and at the start of your next turn: +$1 and +1buy
----
When this is in play: When you buy a card costing at most $2, everyone else gains <1>.

The amount of $2's will probably be limited.
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Asper

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2016, 04:01:42 pm »
+1

I already said from the very start that debt can't really lock out anybody:

The two main problem with cost increasers is that they can lock people out of the game (can't even buy Copper!) and they're confusing with cost reducers.  Using debt solves both of those problems.

so you don't need to explain it back to me multiple times. :\

It felt to me like you were overestimating the problem of having debt, so i kept explaining it. Sorry if i was patronizing, that wasn't my intention.

The pin to fear isn't a hard pin, but one in which it takes too long to pay off the debt each time.  If each single item I buy forces me to pay <15> or more over the next 2-3 turns, that's just so painful and slow.  Unless the other player already has an incredible deck, they may as well be pinned and the game is just no fun at all from then on.

Well, if i play 15 Saboteurs a turn, it's not going to be much fun for you either, is it? Actually, 3 Saboteurs a turn are already doing more damage to my deck than i can usually hope to make up. Having Lab, Province or whatever other card cost an additional <3> is a joke compared to that.

Factory is such that you can stack up to <6>, which is considerable but not as harsh for the other player (it's also just an initial idea; a different number could be better).  Going beyond that to set this soft pin on other players does the same to you, because Factory will fail to gain a card on the next turn (everything costs too much debt) and buying a card will rack up just as much debt for you as for anybody else.  You're just making the effort to play Factory a lot for no benefit at that point.  Thus, pinning the other players will pin yourself as well.
Yes, i got that this was the intention.

It's not an absurd situation especially if you consider games with 3+ players.  Factory might not be a good answer to that either, but I'm just suggesting alternative approaches to mitigate the danger of an unfun game where players can only buy one card every third turn.

See my Saboteur comparison above. This also works with Knights and a few other cards. Heck, even a 4-player Militia game is horribly slow, no matter how many you play a turn. With Debt, you can at least pay off your debt over several weak turns instead failing to hit $5 every single turn and not being able to buy anything at all. My point isn't that the worst-case scenario wasn't annoying, it's just that we know a lot of more annoying situations in Dominion. I'll take <5> over 5 Saboteur attacks every day, and i'd rather pay off my debt for 2 turns than spend 3 turns with hands that can't buy anything worthwile at all.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2016, 05:55:08 pm »
+1

Hm, Saboteur comparison is a fair point, but I don't think it's actually a good defense.  Saboteur is among the most hated cards, isn't it?  It sits in this weird place where it can be overbearing and destructive, especially with 3+ players and in inexperienced groups.  Even for us who know that Saboteur is generally super weak, it can get soul-crushingly strong when played in excess.  IMO, Saboteur isn't so much an excuse for making similarly unfun cards as it is a warning.  Moreover, Tollgate as proposed is in many ways easier to stack up on because it's cheap and gives economy.

So as I said, maybe the pain of Tollgate is acceptable without other checks, but I think it's important to keep it firmly in mind and watch out for it.
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tristan

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2016, 02:14:52 am »
+1

My opinion is probably influenced by the groups that I normally play with as well. If we get a board that has Torturer and consistent action splitters, or Torturer in games involving 3 or more players, we're likely to replace one of the cards with a protective Reaction, or just replace Torturer itself. I don't mind oppressive combos (particularly since I gravitate towards them ;D) but I've seen other players feel otherwise, and I would probably feel bad if I drove someone to never play Dominion ever again just because I like Torturer + Village a little too much.
There is of course nothing wrong with that houserule but I'd like to add that Torturer pins, while being nasty, are not the end of the world. First of all, you can as usual always mirror this powerful strategy and above all you have an out via taking a Curse.
I do for example use this Debt attack card which is also an optional Curser:

Debt Peonage
Type: Action-Attack
Cost:
Take a Coin Token. Each other player may gain a Curse.
If he does not he takes  2 and you take a Coin token.
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Destry

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2016, 02:47:11 pm »
+2

You can still create a debt pin once the Curses run out. Should be the opposite.

Here's a crude version:

Debt Torturer
Type: Action-Attack
Cost:
+3 Cards
Each other player either takes a Curse or 2

Once the curses run out you can no longer pin them with debt.
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Destry

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2016, 02:51:56 pm »
+1

Hmm - this might be more interesting.


Debt Collector
Type: Action-Attack
Cost:
+3 Cards
Each other player either takes 2 or gains a Curse card, putting it in his hand.
Each player may discard a Curse card to pay off 1.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 02:54:06 pm by Destry »
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tristan

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2016, 03:05:13 pm »
0

You can still create a debt pin once the Curses run out. Should be the opposite.
Nah, I am fine with it. The card does very little if the other player choose the Curse so it has to be become better in the endgame when the Curses are out. Compare it so Saboteur. You can also set up Saboteur pins in theory but in practice they occur rarely and if they do you can still hedge yourself against it via mirror stratgies, via massive gaining and so on.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2016, 03:36:22 pm »
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With Saboteur, while it can lead to unfun and degenerate games, you can always just build a deck out of cards that cost $3 or less. If you're being given more debt tokens per turn than you can earn money per turn, you can't play anymore.
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tristan

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2016, 03:45:10 pm »
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With Saboteur, while it can lead to unfun and degenerate games, you can always just build a deck out of cards that cost $3 or less. If you're being given more debt tokens per turn than you can earn money per turn, you can't play anymore.
Ehm, Saboteur does trash cards that cost 3 or more. ^^
Good luck trying to achieve anything with only Copper and 2s.
Saboteur pins are a possibility; we have probably all played some games in which they appeared and while they can be nasty you can always hedge yourself against them.
I don't see how my card is worse than Saboteur (unless you play with 4 or more players but then Dominion becomes wacky anyway). Just because a theoretical pin possibility exists doesn't mean that it will actually arise or be significant. We all played our Saboteur pin games and survived them, realizing that they are way to defend against Saboteur.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2016, 03:46:49 pm »
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With Saboteur, while it can lead to unfun and degenerate games, you can always just build a deck out of cards that cost $3 or less. If you're being given more debt tokens per turn than you can earn money per turn, you can't play anymore.
Ehm, Saboteur does trash cards that cost 3 or more. ^^
Good luck trying to achieve anything with only Copper and 2s.
Saboteur pins are a possibility; we have probably all played some games in which they appeared and while they can be nasty you can always hedge yourself against them.
I don't see how my card is worse than Saboteur (unless you play with 4 or more players but then Dominion becomes wacky anyway). Just because a theoretical pin possibility exists doesn't mean that it will actually arise or be significant. We all played our Saboteur pin games and survived them, realizing that they are way to defend against Saboteur.

Sorry; been way too long since I've played with Saboteur!
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2016, 03:52:38 pm »
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I once played a game with kings court knights-saboteurs. I won the destroy deck game.
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Destry

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2016, 03:57:13 pm »
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Well, Debt Peonage is much stronger than Saboteur. Saboteur doesn't give you any benefit; this give you 1-2 coin tokens. Saboteur is frustrating, but you can stop it buy buying 3 coin cards. This just stops you from buying cards.

The only true test is to play a couple games where at least one of the players can't buy this card. I'd bet money, or at least coin tokens, Debt Peonage will dominate.
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tristan

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2016, 04:13:19 pm »
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I'd bet money, or at least coin tokens, Debt Peonage will dominate.
For a mere Curser it is worse than all other 5s. I would never start with it if Witch or Mountebank were in the Kingdom and only go for it late in the game when it actually does something decent.

Quote
The only true test is to play a couple games where at least one of the players can't buy this card.
Ehm, that's not how Dominion works. Forbidding one player to buy ANY Curser significantly lowers his winning chances in most Kingdoms.

I once played a game with kings court knights-saboteurs. I won the destroy deck game.
Strange that nobody whines about Knight pins here. IMO they provide the worst pin possibility. You can always mirror a pin strategy but if you lose the Knights split in a Kingdom in which they are good, well, that's it. A nasty Saboteur deck provides you at least an out via Duchies whereas Knights just empty out all the good stuff.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2016, 04:29:31 pm »
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And it's a massacre when you have won the split on both and have kc and villages to back it up.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2016, 04:30:26 pm »
0

Strange that nobody whines about Knight pins here. IMO they provide the worst pin possibility. You can always mirror a pin strategy but if you lose the Knights split in a Kingdom in which they are good, well, that's it. A nasty Saboteur deck provides you at least an out via Duchies whereas Knights just empty out all the good stuff.

It's mitigated by Knights trashing each other, so when one player wins the split the Knights will eventually eliminate each other.  The split winner will still have some left, but rarely enough to lock out a player.  Also, Knights usually can't touch Provinces, which is important. 

Knights and Saboteur have mitigation built-in, so it's tougher for them to get totally out of control.  That said, games where they do effectively pin a player can be really unfun, so they're not a good excuse for making more cards that do that.  Handing out unlimited Debt could very easily fall into that territory.  Debt Peonage sounds a lot like a Torturer that forces you to discard once Curses are gone.
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Destry

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Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2016, 04:35:38 pm »
+3

Quote
The only true test is to play a couple games where at least one of the players can't buy this card.
Ehm, that's not how Dominion works. Forbidding one player to buy ANY Curser significantly lowers his winning chances in most Kingdoms.

It's how testing card power works. If everyone buys <new card> then you don't really know if it's strong or not. Typically you'd throw in a card to compare it to, maybe mountebank or witch in this case. But if you cannot win without buying <new card>, well, that tells you something.
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