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Author Topic: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?  (Read 22662 times)

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Asklepios

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Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« on: January 27, 2012, 03:57:18 am »
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Alright... lets presume that you draw $5 on your first hand and Mandarin is on the board, plus whatever kingdom cards you want.

One option you now have is to buy a Mandarin, then to buy abother $5 card.

Which card is going to give the best outcome here, and on what sort of board?

Personally, I'm thinking that if the optimal lucky situation is with Hunting Parties on a board that has no extra buys and no curses. Reason being is that odds are you'll be able to skip silver, go straight to gold, then just buy:
$6 for first time: 1 gold.
$5+ otherwise: Hunting Party
$8: Province
Any other situation: Don't buy.

The idea is that once you draw Mandarin and it'll take you to $8, you then play it to put a spare hunting party back on the deck, or even a spare copper.

What do you think?

More generally, on a $5/$5 Mandarin opening, what combos would YOU think would work?

((Edit: After suggesting the above combo have tried it out a few times, and I can't seem to get it to work... Maybe a second gold is needed? Or a silver? Or maybe just some trashing...)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 04:04:33 am by Asklepios »
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Davio

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 04:01:02 am »
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Maybe Governor?
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Asklepios

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 04:05:08 am »
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Mandarin/Governor seems pretty good. Is it better than just Governor/$2 though?
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DStu

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 04:09:29 am »
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More generally, on a $5/$5 Mandarin opening, what combos would YOU think would work?

Not many...
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Mandarin

Maybe I would think about Mandarin/Potion->Familiar if I start 5/2.

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Asklepios

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 04:37:36 am »
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More generally, on a $5/$5 Mandarin opening, what combos would YOU think would work?

Not many...
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Mandarin

Maybe I would think about Mandarin/Potion->Familiar if I start 5/2.

Ouch!

I wonder though, if these stats are skewed by several factors.

First, I suspect, many decent players regard Mandarin as a liability so avoid it, while many weak or average players buy anything just to try out cards. That might well result in Mandarin being played with less skill.

Second, I think a 5/2 split coming up where there isn't a better 5/2 starting option available are rare.

Having said that, I'm sure there must be a good 5/5 use for this card. Its just a case of working out what that is!
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Anon79

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 04:47:40 am »
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Open Mandarin/Mandarin/Inn on a Forge board.
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DStu

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 04:48:45 am »
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Ouch!

I wonder though, if these stats are skewed by several factors.

Yeah, I think that is true. Madarin/HP as you said should work quite well, it loses against HP/Baron but that of course is very good itself. It's still Level0 on this list, which probably is because you have to play it very consequent and not get distracted by shiny other cards.

But I don't see many others. The point is, either there are good $5s to start with, which are usually terminals themselves. Then you don't want another slow terminal Gold, because they collide and you can take fewer of the other $5s. The non-terminal $5s are usually not really good at the start.

Mint comes to my mind, which such a card which you normally don't want to start with because something is missing (like HP). Mandarin->Mint gives you a deck of 3 Estates, 2 Coppers, 1 Mint, 1 Mandarin. If from there there is some good continuation that profits from a small deck, that's might be worth a try.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 04:58:10 am »
+1

Mandarin/Mandarin/(Mandarin?)/Apprentice is the only one I'd be likely to actually go for.
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Asklepios

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 05:18:28 am »
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Mandarin/Mint did cross my mind, though I wonder how good an idea that is, as you still need to get to gold to have something worth minting, and you'll still need to buy a silver to get to that stage.

Multi-mandarin followed by Apprentice is kind of cool, I agree, but if we're just getting Mandarins to trash for benefit, I wonder if +5 cards is really going to do much in such an unformed deck. I guess the turn following that chain would be a gold.

If we're on Mandarin chaining followed by Trash for Benefit though, do you think there's any mileage from chaining Mandarin a load of times, then taking a bishop and gunning for three piles plus VP counters?
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DStu

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2012, 05:27:20 am »
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Mandarin/Mint did cross my mind, though I wonder how good an idea that is, as you still need to get to gold to have something worth minting, and you'll still need to buy a silver to get to that stage.
I don't think its a good idea for BigMoney, the Mint is more a "I trash 5 Copper for a Mint"-move. So you now have a pretty slim deck, which additionally has great potential for trash-for-benefit (bonus to keep in mind). Can you do something with this slim deck? Big Money will take quite long and will then be quite volunable to greening, but add a Salvager or Apprentice or Remodel, and some (maybe Cantrip-)engine to built, Mandarin/Mint might be a good move.
It's in no way a non-brainer...
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ackack

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2012, 08:57:17 am »
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Mandarin/Mint did cross my mind, though I wonder how good an idea that is, as you still need to get to gold to have something worth minting, and you'll still need to buy a silver to get to that stage.

It's not bad, although usually when I'm playing it it's because the 5/2 options are not at all appealing.
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Fabian

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2012, 09:15:31 am »
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Mandarin/Mint/nothing as an opener on 5/2 seems to be losing to big money (on 4/3). It does beat BM when it opens 5/2 though, so I guess if there's literally no better strategy on the board and you open 5/2, Mandarin/Mint/nothing is preferrable to Silver/nothing at least. Either way, I'm not exactly convinced.
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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2012, 09:47:02 am »
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I'm not certain of this, but it seems to me like a Mandarin/Hunting Party/nothing opening should work, assuming that you play your Mandarin well. Before Hinterlands (and the advent of Mandarin and especially Farmland), I would often unthinkingly play out by hand-size increasing cards first (unless I was trying to manipulate my shuffle timing, etc. If you already have enough money in hand to buy the car you want ($5 for a Hunting Party, $8 for a Province, etc.) without needing to play out all your Hunting Parties, use Mandarin to put one back onto your deck to give your next turn a boost.

It seems like a smart idea in theory, anyway. I haven't played enough games with Mandarin available to claim this with certainty.
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Smartie

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2012, 09:57:19 am »
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Inn and mandarin sounds good since one can draw, and the other puts back into the deck  :P
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Davio

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2012, 10:14:23 am »
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I'm not certain of this, but it seems to me like a Mandarin/Hunting Party/nothing opening should work, assuming that you play your Mandarin well. Before Hinterlands (and the advent of Mandarin and especially Farmland), I would often unthinkingly play out by hand-size increasing cards first (unless I was trying to manipulate my shuffle timing, etc. If you already have enough money in hand to buy the car you want ($5 for a Hunting Party, $8 for a Province, etc.) without needing to play out all your Hunting Parties, use Mandarin to put one back onto your deck to give your next turn a boost.

It seems like a smart idea in theory, anyway. I haven't played enough games with Mandarin available to claim this with certainty.
My not very scientific solitaire game clears out 8 Provinces in 18 turns with Mandarin/Hunting Party/Crossroads.
End result: 7 Coppers, 1 Gold, 5 HPs, 2 CRs, 1 Mandarin, NO Silvers.
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Asklepios

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 11:29:32 am »
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I'm not certain of this, but it seems to me like a Mandarin/Hunting Party/nothing opening should work, assuming that you play your Mandarin well. Before Hinterlands (and the advent of Mandarin and especially Farmland), I would often unthinkingly play out by hand-size increasing cards first (unless I was trying to manipulate my shuffle timing, etc. If you already have enough money in hand to buy the car you want ($5 for a Hunting Party, $8 for a Province, etc.) without needing to play out all your Hunting Parties, use Mandarin to put one back onto your deck to give your next turn a boost.

It seems like a smart idea in theory, anyway. I haven't played enough games with Mandarin available to claim this with certainty.

On my practice games (a pain in the ass to do, as you need to restart till you get a $5 opening) I found that the main problem was that you rarely have two hunting parties in hand when you draw mandarin, as you don't tend to draw hunting party from hunting party unless its the last one in your hand...

It just didn't seem to pan out
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Asklepios

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2012, 11:30:16 am »
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My not very scientific solitaire game clears out 8 Provinces in 18 turns with Mandarin/Hunting Party/Crossroads.
End result: 7 Coppers, 1 Gold, 5 HPs, 2 CRs, 1 Mandarin, NO Silvers.

Crossroads. Hmmm. That could work. Will try it myself
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ackack

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2012, 11:33:04 am »
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Mandarin/Mint/nothing as an opener on 5/2 seems to be losing to big money (on 4/3). It does beat BM when it opens 5/2 though, so I guess if there's literally no better strategy on the board and you open 5/2, Mandarin/Mint/nothing is preferrable to Silver/nothing at least. Either way, I'm not exactly convinced.

Yeah, I think my memories are probably out of whack on this one. I've had them together 3 times (would have guessed it was more) and twice used it as an opening. In one case it nearly saved me against a JoaT/Fishing Village open - using 5/2 on JoaT/nothing seemed like a losing proposition so I gambled on Mandarin/Mint. It worked really well - I still got to 4 Provinces in 14 turns despite the delayed JoaT - but then JoaT and Fishing Village are practically ideal complements to that plan. The other game I played with it I have literally no idea what my plan was, as I appeared to be neglecting a Torturer/Farming Village setup.
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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2012, 06:09:08 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/27/game-20120127-145537-027d5630.html

This is semi-off topic but I found a use for mandarin that doesn't involve using it as an opening, but as a main component of a King's Court chain. With 2 KCs, along with Mandarin and a Young Witch being the only targets of the KCs; I was able to get quick, easy golds where otherwise I might've just given my opponent 3 curses and had to wish for a lucky $8 draw after 3 Young Witch draw/discards(often leaving with $6-7 at most, rarely ever with $8). The Mandarin allows for you to get at least 1-2 "free" Provinces when combined with 1 KC in your hand. The key being to buy only a couple KCs and only 1-3 Mandarins so as not to end up with clashing KCs or Mandarins(possibility of 3 clashing is doubtful).

However, I am only level 19 so I may be completely wrong. I believe that KC/Mandarin is a great strategy and together with some other +Draw actions(lab, HP, etc.) you may be called a cheater (by your opponent who didn't see this combo ;)) for getting $9 from 1 card every turn. Only draw back is that KCing a Mandarin without having drawn other cards first will net you ONLY $9 from that turn. This means that in a Colony game there better be something like Tournament to get other useful cards or some "+2 cards"(or more if possible) actions or else you will be buying Provinces, not Colonies each time you use Mandarin. This makes Mandarin a good early-mid game card in Colony games but when the VP rush starts that Mandarin needs to be trashed or it may generate some problems, plus you need a back up plan for using the KC.

-Again, do not take this all for granted unless confirmed by a higher level player than I.
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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2012, 06:13:21 pm »
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I think Madarin/Mint into a Mint/money deck is a bad idea, but it can perhaps lead into some good stuff with trash-for-benefit cards. For example, you could use Remake or Salvager to knock out your estates and turn the Mandarin into a mint-able Gold. Or you can grab a Bishop and work on a late "golden deck" with a few bonus points from trashing the $5 cards...
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Jorbles

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2012, 06:41:35 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/27/game-20120127-145537-027d5630.html

This is semi-off topic but I found a use for mandarin that doesn't involve using it as an opening, but as a main component of a King's Court chain. With 2 KCs, along with Mandarin and a Young Witch being the only targets of the KCs; I was able to get quick, easy golds where otherwise I might've just given my opponent 3 curses and had to wish for a lucky $8 draw after 3 Young Witch draw/discards(often leaving with $6-7 at most, rarely ever with $8). The Mandarin allows for you to get at least 1-2 "free" Provinces when combined with 1 KC in your hand. The key being to buy only a couple KCs and only 1-3 Mandarins so as not to end up with clashing KCs or Mandarins(possibility of 3 clashing is doubtful).

However, I am only level 19 so I may be completely wrong. I believe that KC/Mandarin is a great strategy and together with some other +Draw actions(lab, HP, etc.) you may be called a cheater (by your opponent who didn't see this combo ;)) for getting $9 from 1 card every turn. Only draw back is that KCing a Mandarin without having drawn other cards first will net you ONLY $9 from that turn. This means that in a Colony game there better be something like Tournament to get other useful cards or some "+2 cards"(or more if possible) actions or else you will be buying Provinces, not Colonies each time you use Mandarin. This makes Mandarin a good early-mid game card in Colony games but when the VP rush starts that Mandarin needs to be trashed or it may generate some problems, plus you need a back up plan for using the KC.

-Again, do not take this all for granted unless confirmed by a higher level player than I.
This isn't terrible, but it's not great either. If it's on its own (with no draw support) you end up top decking the remaining three cards in your hand onto your deck, which is even worse than getting hit with a Ghost Ship. As with a Ghost Ship this might be good sometimes, but it's going to force you to draw your crap twice. If you use it with card drawers (let's say a Lab) in hopes of setting up some sort of super turn you need to draw enough cards before you KC the Mandarin that you can then redraw the cards you topdecked by saving Labs after. Seems terrible to me. Plus you need +buys to take advantage of it. I'd say in general you'd be better off KCing your drawer or if you want a comparative card that nets you $9 you'd be better off KCing a Horse Traders.

In that game specifically you had it locked down when your opponent decided to just take let you give him all the curses. Personally I probably would have tried to run some sort of Remake supported Venture variant on that board.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2012, 06:50:18 pm »
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One use for Mandarin is in over-greened endgames. Once you get up to $5, a) you can buy it every turn, forcing a third pile in... admittedly probably too long a wait unless you're VERY over-green, but more importantly, b) use it to store your golds/silvers until you draw that last bit of money you need.

Empathy

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2012, 07:49:14 pm »
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mandarin/remake (not sure what the optimal number of mandarins is though.)

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thespaceinvader

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2012, 08:42:59 am »
+1

Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/.../Apprentice :D  Or several other TFB cards including, as suggested, remake.
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DG

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2012, 08:52:25 am »
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Mandarin/tactician might open possibilities with the right kingdom.
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