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Author Topic: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?  (Read 22666 times)

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PerdHapley

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2012, 08:28:44 pm »
0

Fabian, you're right about baseless speculation. Donald's abilities may just end up being a mystery forever!

I definitely agree about Develop being a pretty terrible opener most of the time, but that's not really what it's for, and I don't think it deserves its current reputation as the worst of the $3s. The thread over in Articles does a really good job of examining it.

But back to Mandarin.. I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert on it, but I definitely think there are some ideas in this thread worth trying at least once, and there are probably still more that haven't been brought up yet.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:34:28 pm by PerdHapley »
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jomini

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2012, 12:54:39 pm »
0

Given Donald's comments about masq pins, I highly doubt he exhaustively tested anything more than two card combos. There likely aren't any broken two card mandarin combos; but it is quite likely that there are three card combos which neither Donald nor his play testers have every touched.

That being said, mandarin tends to be a weak card because it delays deck advancement by a turn (minimum) and slows down the cycle rate once you start playing it. So of the potential combos out there for mandarin, they will almost certainly need to be combos that can either use mandarin to increase cycling (e.g. library/mandarin/hamlet) or have good odds of getting a killer card earlier (e.g. mandarin/upgrade/goons). While it does give you 3 coin, as an opening, it cannot break into 7 or 8 coin territory, making it weaker than many other options (afterall 2 silvers give pretty good chances at hitting 6 and baron/silver is good odds of 7). Thus you pay a turn in lost tempo, are unlikely to get appreciably more expensive cards most of the time, and move slower later in the game.

There are times when none of these apply. In chapel deck, mandarin can be good terminal that moves the dead chapel or green and gives you a good payout, generally, though I want to chapel first and acquire the mandarin later - chapel/mandarin is a collision risk and worse, makes you even more vulnerable to attacks. Late game you might draw a silver and a gold and know that your odds of winning are better if you buy the mandarin to put back the treasure & hope to hit the last province rather than painfully draw through a treasure deficient draw deck.

For openings, I can really only see potential for mandarin if you are going to use it to get some high power hands with it that you otherwise would miss. Apprentice mandarin trades some poor early hands for some extremely strong mid-game hands. I think you might see a similar thing with mandarin/upgrade/goons or mandarin/hamlet/lib (particularly if mandarin is the only virtual coin out there).
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cored

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2012, 05:11:20 pm »
0

It's been sort of hinted at with Upgrade, but the combo I'd like to play around with is Mandarin>Mandarin>Remake, especially with Grand Market or Goons on the board.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2012, 05:26:13 pm »
+4

Here's the hand I'd want to draw on a Mandarin board (assuming no hand-discard attacks are around):

- Copper
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
- Horn of Plenty
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blueblimp

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2012, 05:41:38 pm »
+1

Here's the hand I'd want to draw on a Mandarin board (assuming no hand-discard attacks are around):

- Copper
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
- Horn of Plenty

Nice combo. Checking CouncilRoom, this has actually been done. nnn buys 5 straight turns of Colonies, starting turn 14... and loses anyway, go figure.
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Dsell

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2012, 05:44:58 pm »
0

Here's the hand I'd want to draw on a Mandarin board (assuming no hand-discard attacks are around):

- Copper
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
- Horn of Plenty

Nice combo. Checking CouncilRoom, this has actually been done. nnn buys 5 straight turns of Colonies, starting turn 14... and loses anyway, go figure.

He would have won if he had gained a duchy the second-to-last turn. :/
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2012, 06:44:52 pm »
0

Here's the hand I'd want to draw on a Mandarin board (assuming no hand-discard attacks are around):

- Copper
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
- Horn of Plenty

Nice combo. Checking CouncilRoom, this has actually been done. nnn buys 5 straight turns of Colonies, starting turn 14... and loses anyway, go figure.
I'm curious as to how you checked for this...

blueblimp

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2012, 06:52:15 pm »
0

Here's the hand I'd want to draw on a Mandarin board (assuming no hand-discard attacks are around):

- Copper
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
- Horn of Plenty

Nice combo. Checking CouncilRoom, this has actually been done. nnn buys 5 straight turns of Colonies, starting turn 14... and loses anyway, go figure.
I'm curious as to how you checked for this...

Searched games for Mandarin, Horn of Plenty, Colony. By luck, this one was top hit. :P
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Varsinor

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2012, 07:24:40 pm »
+1

Nice Mandarin/Horn of Plenty combo indeed!

He would have won if he had gained a duchy the second-to-last turn. :/

He might have. But probably not as his deck was unlikely to be able to buy a Colony (or even a Province) after he had gained anything but a Mandarin for the first time.
It looks most probable that in that case Eli_k would have won by bishopping a Gold (instead of a Province) and buying a Province on turn 19 followed by buying the last Colony on turn 20 (jumpstarted by two Schemes on turn 19) or one of the following turns.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 07:26:48 pm by Varsinor »
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Dsell

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2012, 07:34:19 pm »
0

Nice Mandarin/Horn of Plenty combo indeed!

He would have won if he had gained a duchy the second-to-last turn. :/

He might have. But probably not as his deck was unlikely to be able to buy a Colony (or even a Province) after he had gained anything but a Mandarin for the first time.
It looks most probable that in that case Eli_k would have won by bishopping a Gold (instead of a Province) and buying a Province on turn 19 followed by buying the last Colony on turn 20 (jumpstarted by two Schemes on turn 19) or one of the following turns.

Ah, you're right. I was just looking at the scores rather than looking at the game itself enough. I do think it probably would have been a better bet, though, considering that Eli_k had a very trim deck that was almost certainly going to get him another province+colony+whatever he bishopped. Risky, but worth the risk imo when your opponent looks likely to come back.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2012, 08:11:01 pm »
0

Upgrade+Mandarin+X is a good opening when I tried it.  It has a neat synergy with Mandarin being on the board too - you get 3 estate Silvers and trash some coppers so that you can buy Mandarin with just gold and silver lategame to "tactician" up a province.
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Powerman

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2012, 08:23:07 pm »
0

I had a game that worked nicely using Mandarin - Tactician:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/23/game-20120523-171829-ee0a74f0.html

I feel like the Mandarin was huge here, as Tactician as an opener isn't that great because you don't have much buying power, but Mandarin solves that.  Plus the ability to put back a card was useful more times than not.
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dondon151

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2012, 11:14:36 pm »
+1

Something that I just thought of after reading WW's Mandarin-BM log against Marin:

We tend to focus on the utility of Mandarin at getting $5/$5 openings or getting to $8 on the subsequent turn lategame if the player happens to draw $5. But what about using Mandarin in the early- to midgame to secure a $6+ card prior to the next shuffle? In WW's log, he buys a Mandarin on turn 3 with a hand of 3 Coppers and a Silver, cycling an Estate out of his deck and increasing his odds of drawing $6 for a Gold on his subsequent turn.
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Varsinor

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Re: Mandarin: How do we use the $5/$5 split?
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2012, 07:14:49 am »
0

In WW's log, he buys a Mandarin on turn 3 with a hand of 3 Coppers and a Silver, cycling an Estate out of his deck and increasing his odds of drawing $6 for a Gold on his subsequent turn.

That sounds like a nice buy of Mandarin indeed, I hadn't thought of that so far! Especially in cases where you didn't yet buy a terminal action on turns 1 or 2. I suppose most notably with a start of Tournament/Silver, Silver/Silver, Caravan/Silver or Spice Merchant/Silver. Tournament/Silver seems to be the most attractive variant as Tournaments can synergize nicely with Mandarin once the first Province was bought.
When Mandarin is the only terminal on the board you'll buy or you started with some sort of village + Silver (the most likely candidates are probably Fishing Village/Silver, Mining Village/Silver and Farming Village/Silver) you might even want to buy a second Mandarin on turn 4 if you happen to draw your Silver plus 3 Coppers with another Estate.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:18:46 am by Varsinor »
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