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Author Topic: Royal carriage masquerade pin  (Read 11190 times)

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Chaos

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Royal carriage masquerade pin
« on: July 02, 2016, 03:20:56 pm »
+4

So I just got rekt in a game (forgot to get the log) where my opponent used masquerade and royal carriage to trash all my cards. Basically they got to a point where their deck was just 4 royal carriages and a masquerade so I couldn't do anything.

Has anyone else ran into this pin? How did it go?

Edit: here's the log:
http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160702/log.0.1467485738501.txt
(Can't seem to figure out how to link the pretty version)

In hindsight I probably could have gotten out of the pin since my opponent only had three royal carriages left. So I could have never passed my masquerade and then whenever I played it I would steal another royal carriage. Unfortunately, since I had never seen the pin before I thought it was over.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 10:50:50 am by Chaos »
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jsh357

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2016, 03:24:40 pm »
0

That sounds like a new one to me. You probably need to take steps ahead of time to counter it (probably with your own reserves). If you can take the Masquerade from their hand, they are helpless.
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Chaos

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2016, 03:39:04 pm »
0

Yeah I had no idea what was happening until it was too late. I was sitting there thinking "man my opponent is playing a lot of masquerades" then suddenly I only have four cards in hand so I check the log. No attacks played...ohhh I guess I lose.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2016, 03:43:21 pm »
0

Very interesting. I will have to play some boot games with this. Too bad I'm very busy through the 4th.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2016, 03:56:16 pm »
+1

There's some further discussion of this pin here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14975.msg609602#msg609602
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jomini

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2016, 06:32:40 pm »
+2

This is a particularly vicious form of the pin. Like with Prince, it is strictly a two card combo. Unlike with Prince, you need a lot less economy to get going. Masq will very quickly get you to $5 per turn, every turn until you have enough Rc to pin out.

Playing Masq once per turn yourself is not enough to beat this form. As they can gain a 5th (or 6th) Rc and store extras out of deck, they can afford to give up a Rc and still come back next turn or two and pin you. Discard attacks are mostly useless, they can just load up Rc for later and go off from a one card hand. Junking buys some time, but not much as they typically can give it back as fast you can give it out (and +2 cards, trash a card is typically faster than even things like Witch).

Standard Masq counters: Durations, Fortress, Feodum, Squire, Catacombs, Island, Nv, Distant lands, Possession, and possibly some Landmarks (possibly Battlefield, Defiled shrine, Baths, etc.) all can work here as well.

I have not played a mirror, but I imagine you really want to just trash ASAP. Most likely with a Silver/Masq opening and possibly buying a second Masq. A cheap Cantrip, like Pawn will also be helpful for having cheap dross that can let you sacrifice it to a singleton masq play.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2016, 11:03:46 pm »
0

It was talked about on a stream between me a wachsmuth but we decided to keep it a secret so we could reck people with it.
Log dated may 3rd
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160504/log.0.1462324469549.txt
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 11:10:23 pm by Limetime »
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Seprix

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2016, 11:23:03 pm »
0

Wow, a T11 pin? That is completely nasty.
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tailred

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2016, 01:51:11 am »
+2

So I just got rekt in a game (forgot to get the log) where my opponent used masquerade and royal carriage to trash all my cards. Basically they got to a point where their deck was just 4 royal carriages and a masquerade so I couldn't do anything.

Has anyone else ran into this pin? How did it go?
Hey, I was that opponent! Wasn't exactly a perfect pin since you forced me to pass a RC with masq, I think you might have been okay if you managed to get a few more masq plays off. Didn't particularly think about storing up extra RCs, that could've helped.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 01:53:24 am by tailred »
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tailred

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 05:42:42 am »
+1

Wow, ran into this again:

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160706/log.0.1467797948787.txt

This time my opponent didn't immediately resign upon the pin, and I had a ton of trouble setting it up thanks to Haunted Woods. Even after snagging a turn with no HW in play, and trashing all his masquerades which protects my pin, I still had the issue of finding a way to end the game on a win. After a few turns of not doing anything, I noticed Native Village and thought to store up coppers on the mat to spike a province or something after nearly emptying copper/curse. However, getting coppers on the mat proved to be more trouble than I had expected, and he had a bit of freedom around the pin, and I was worried that he'd be able to get masquerade himself. Luckily, I managed to mat an estate and started working on crunching the curses when he resigned.
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Seprix

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2016, 09:53:53 am »
0

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.
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tailred

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2016, 06:41:12 pm »
0

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.
I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there
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GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2016, 09:58:04 am »
0

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.
I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2016, 10:38:36 am »
+1

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.
I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.
But if you don't draw royal carraige *4 and masq last then you can't keep pinning them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2016, 02:56:58 pm »
0

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.
I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.
But if you don't draw royal carraige *4 and masq last then you can't keep pinning them.

Oh, right. Well not just cantrips in general then. But if you use a bunch of lab-type things; then you're fine unless you happen to draw exactly RC*4 and Masq in your initial hand. But even without any thing other than those 5 cards; the rest of what I said stands. Given starting decks of no cards vs those 5 cards; I'm pretty sure it's not possible to win.
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jomini

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2016, 10:50:10 pm »
+2

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.
But if you don't draw royal carraige *4 and masq last then you can't keep pinning them.

Oh, right. Well not just cantrips in general then. But if you use a bunch of lab-type things; then you're fine unless you happen to draw exactly RC*4 and Masq in your initial hand. But even without any thing other than those 5 cards; the rest of what I said stands. Given starting decks of no cards vs those 5 cards; I'm pretty sure it's not possible to win.

More importantly, if you draw Rc x4/Masq you can just wait a turn. So your opponent buys a second copper and has a two card deck? Who cares (outside of Poor house)? You can kill them both the next turn after you mat all the Rc. This is a very forgiving Masq pin.


In general, you are quite right, you burn their deck to the ground and secure a win through end game control.


Then you have a lot of control of end game. With a single pile gone, you can buy a curse, give it to them (say in exchange for a copper) and then kill whatever they buy. You play Masq 2x and ensure they end the turn with a curse every turn and slowly burn off the curse & copper piles for a -1 to 0 win. Remember once you have killed their entire deck (maybe 8-9 turns, tops as you kill 5 cards a go here), you do not need to play the full pin, just enough Masqs to leave them with a curse (e.g. they hold CurC, you play Masq x4 - pass a C, gain a Cur, pass a Cur, gain a C, trash a C, pass nothing, gain a Cur, pass Cur, gain a C, trash a C, buy a C).

With two piles empty they  might rarely be able to empty the curses before you trash deck and then you have some trouble ending on a win, but again for this pin, you kill cards very quickly and they will have a hard time getting all the curses gone quickly enough. They also do not get to save VP cards until the end. Instead if you can kill off the deck entirely before the penultimate curse, you buy a curse, wait a turn, give it to them, and then play 4 Masqs to kill off the copper for a win as above.

With no piles empty you need economy to buy something so you can end the game. For this you kill off the curses (buy em, pass em, and trash em). Then trash away copper until there are 3 left in deck. Buy the antepenultimate copper. They buy or do not buy a copper. You buy the (pen)ultimate copper. You buy an estate. You play Masq, pass an E, gain a C and buy the last copper if needed. They now have 1 VP and no possible source of cash. You have $3. You can buy Silver and build back up.

End game is much trickier with Kc Pins, but there is virtually always a way to win after pinning a deck fully that does not have an easy out (e.g. Alms).
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tailred

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2016, 01:02:03 am »
0

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160726/log.0.1469509068339.txt

I'm so proud of this combo that I'm never letting this thread die >:D
Real-game footage of the start of the endgame (nobody wants to sit through this rubbish all the way). Didn't get to hit the exciting last-3 coppers bit, unfortunately.
Risky kick-off turn, highly suggest having  5 RCs over 4 like I had here.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2016, 01:23:31 am »
+1

you are evil

werothegreat

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2016, 09:09:08 am »
0

With Villa (or Black Market), you can do this without destroying your own deck.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2016, 11:04:34 am »
0

With Villa (or Black Market), you can do this without destroying your own deck.

In theory, couldn't you do this with a lot of Action based payloads?

Imagine a deck that builds up to, 6 Market, a Milita, a City Quarter or Scrying Pool or two, 2 RC, Masquerade. You run the pin without greening until their deck is completely empty, then you drain any easy cantrip piles while they do nothing, then if you have to you buy Provinces instead of three piling, while they have no hope of building from nothing back up to something once you stop pinning to green.
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Jeebus

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2016, 11:08:08 am »
+3

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 11:13:14 am »
+3

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Quote
Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.
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Chris is me

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2016, 11:17:05 am »
+2

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Quote
Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.
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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2016, 11:19:57 am »
+1

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Quote
Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

It would, however, raise another question in lots of players' minds: "Why wouldn't I have passed a card? Is it optional?"
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Chaos

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 11:26:19 am »
+1

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Quote
Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

It would, however, raise another question in lots of players' minds: "Why wouldn't I have passed a card? Is it optional?"

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

But seriously, I don't really mind pins at all, I just think of it as an alternate route to victory that diversifies the game even more. If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."
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