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Author Topic: Royal carriage masquerade pin  (Read 11189 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 11:35:49 am »
+2

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Quote
Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

It would, however, raise another question in lots of players' minds: "Why wouldn't I have passed a card? Is it optional?"

This problem presents itself on other cards, like Madman, where the action isn't optional but the "If You Do" is there for reasons. It's even on Moneylender, a card in the Base Set, so I think the idea of "If You Do" coupled with mandatory things is introduced from the get go. So I don't think it's an issue. The people who would be confused by this aren't the people whom either read errata or set up pins anyway.
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Jeebus

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2016, 12:16:41 pm »
+1

This problem presents itself on other cards, like Madman, where the action isn't optional but the "If You Do" is there for reasons. It's even on Moneylender, a card in the Base Set, so I think the idea of "If You Do" coupled with mandatory things is introduced from the get go.

Exactly. I even have a list of those cards/Events: Dominate, Madman, Moneylender, Ritual, Small Castle, Soothsayer, Summon, Tactician, Trading Post, Treasure Map, Triumph, Wild Hunt

Deadlock39

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2016, 01:49:00 pm »
0

With "If you do", you could still pin the other player with a discard to 3, and then 6 Masquerade plays.  This should break all pins except Royal Carriage, and maybe Discard/Outpost/King's Court/Masquerade, but doesn't completely eliminate the ability to steal/trash your opponents cards.  It is probably still a very strong move if your opponent isn't set up to mirror you relatively quickly.

Asper

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2016, 03:43:49 pm »
+4

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."
There most certainly are differing sentiments here.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2016, 04:13:33 pm »
+3

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."
There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

I think it would feel different if the game ACTUALLY ended on a pin, instead of just continuing as a game that you can't play. It could be something as simple as a rule that's just part of Dominion that says "if you start 2 turns in a row with 0 cards in hand and no Duration cards in play, you lose the game". If that were a general rule, a pin wouldn't "feel" like a pin. It would just feel like your opponent managed to pull of the alternate victory condition of the game.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2016, 04:16:01 pm »
+1

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."
There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

I think it would feel different if the game ACTUALLY ended on a pin, instead of just continuing as a game that you can't play. It could be something as simple as a rule that's just part of Dominion that says "if you start 2 turns in a row with 0 cards in hand and no Duration cards in play, you lose the game". If that were a general rule, a pin wouldn't "feel" like a pin. It would just feel like your opponent managed to pull of the alternate victory condition of the game.

You can always concede, particularly in 2p.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2016, 04:18:05 pm »
+1

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

Fun usually isn't zero sum, so...?
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Chaos

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2016, 04:32:05 pm »
+2

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

Fun usually isn't zero sum, so...?

It's a joke I've heard in the context of Magic; the Gathering where people argue that the less fun their opponent is having then the more fun for them. Generally this joke is made by those who play decks where the goal is to lock the opponent out of the game (like a pin), so when you achieve the lock clearly your opponent is not having any fun, therefore you must be having tonnes of fun to balance it out. I guess a more accurate statement would be that "fun always averages to X" (i.e. if you are having 0 fun I must be having 2X fun) but it's a joke so who cares?

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Deadlock39

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2016, 04:34:22 pm »
+3

Fortunately, jokes are not 0 sum. Explaining them makes them funnier, so we are all having more fun now that you have explained it.

GendoIkari

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2016, 04:42:41 pm »
+1

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."
There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

I think it would feel different if the game ACTUALLY ended on a pin, instead of just continuing as a game that you can't play. It could be something as simple as a rule that's just part of Dominion that says "if you start 2 turns in a row with 0 cards in hand and no Duration cards in play, you lose the game". If that were a general rule, a pin wouldn't "feel" like a pin. It would just feel like your opponent managed to pull of the alternate victory condition of the game.

You can always concede, particularly in 2p.

Of course, and as a general rule that's what happens in pins. But being forced to concede really isn't the same in terms of "feel" as your opponent meeting an alternate victory condition. (Though ironically, when the original pin was first found, Isotropic had a bug where if you started your turn with no cards in hand, you couldn't concede).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2016, 04:58:13 pm »
0

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

Fun usually isn't zero sum, so...?

It's a joke I've heard in the context of Magic; the Gathering where people argue that the less fun their opponent is having then the more fun for them. Generally this joke is made by those who play decks where the goal is to lock the opponent out of the game (like a pin), so when you achieve the lock clearly your opponent is not having any fun, therefore you must be having tonnes of fun to balance it out. I guess a more accurate statement would be that "fun always averages to X" (i.e. if you are having 0 fun I must be having 2X fun) but it's a joke so who cares?

Ah, didn't realize it was a joke.  I mean, in the Magic context, I can totally imagine some players seriously believing this. 
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funkdoc

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2016, 05:06:58 pm »
+2

the problem here is that it's not hard to screw up the endgame with this pin, so some players just wait it out all the way and hope you hang yourself

agree w/ jeebus, i've done this and it's the least fun i've had playing this game

tailred

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2016, 06:38:46 pm »
0

the problem here is that it's not hard to screw up the endgame with this pin, so some players just wait it out all the way and hope you hang yourself

agree w/ jeebus, i've done this and it's the least fun i've had playing this game
There's a ton of ways to mess up this pin, in the setup and the endgame. I think it's  easier to screw up than to not if you've never done it before.
On the matter of fun, I don't know, I keep finding myself giggling like a little girl everytime I pull it off. Also, though I haven't had a chance to play it yet, I think a mirror would be pretty interesting to play.
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jomini

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Re: Royal carriage masquerade pin
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2016, 10:52:40 pm »
+2

the problem here is that it's not hard to screw up the endgame with this pin, so some players just wait it out all the way and hope you hang yourself

agree w/ jeebus, i've done this and it's the least fun i've had playing this game

Ehh, not really. Let's just take a basic setup for this pin: you have 4 Rc and a Masq, they have nothing. You mat all your Rc, play Masq to kill their copper.

T1a: You gain a copper
T1b: They gain a copper
T2a: You play Masq (pass a copper, trash a copper) -> Rc (gain a copper): gain a copper
T2b: They gain a copper
T3a: Mat your Rc, gain a 3rd copper
T3b: They gain a second copper
T4a: You buy a silver
T4b: they buy a 3rd copper
T4a: You have CCCS as your hand, buy a $5
T4b: They buy a S
T5a: You either draw CCCSMasq or CCCMasq5 or CCCS5. The first you most likely will want to play Masq 2x, trash two coppers, and then buy a Silver (so your next hand would be CSSMasq5). The second can be played the same and the third can buy either another $5 or a gold (if your $5 gives any cash), you can also play the 5 multiple times (e.g. if it is something like Butcher or Wine merchant you can rapidly build up an engine).

Outside of exceedingly rare cases once you fully destroy the other guy's deck, you have a HUGE material advantage and are first mover - it is like you have been spotted 6 turns at the beginning of the game. Unless the game is close to 3-piling or you have some easy method of gaining cards (e.g. Alms or Beggar with a discarding pin), you are pretty much never going to make it back from a pin even if the pinner is bad at the end game.

I talk about completely reduced cases, likely buying out all the coppers, because they are easier to map and validate. However if if you just come back with 3C -> S -> whatever you are gaining a stupendous advantage (at least comparable to having the other guy have his Chapel miss the first two shuffles when yours does not). And frankly anyone who can combo up a pin likely knows how to do something that will win with this sort of lead.
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