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[Chaos]

So I just got rekt in a game (forgot to get the log) where my opponent used masquerade and royal carriage to trash all my cards. Basically they got to a point where their deck was just 4 royal carriages and a masquerade so I couldn't do anything.

Has anyone else ran into this pin? How did it go?

Edit: here's the log:
http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160702/log.0.1467485738501.txt
(Can't seem to figure out how to link the pretty version)

In hindsight I probably could have gotten out of the pin since my opponent only had three royal carriages left. So I could have never passed my masquerade and then whenever I played it I would steal another royal carriage. Unfortunately, since I had never seen the pin before I thought it was over.

[jsh357]

That sounds like a new one to me. You probably need to take steps ahead of time to counter it (probably with your own reserves). If you can take the Masquerade from their hand, they are helpless.

[Chaos]

Yeah I had no idea what was happening until it was too late. I was sitting there thinking "man my opponent is playing a lot of masquerades" then suddenly I only have four cards in hand so I check the log. No attacks played...ohhh I guess I lose.

[Beyond Awesome]

Very interesting. I will have to play some boot games with this. Too bad I'm very busy through the 4th.

[JW]

There's some further discussion of this pin here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14975.msg609602#msg609602

[jomini]

This is a particularly vicious form of the pin. Like with Prince, it is strictly a two card combo. Unlike with Prince, you need a lot less economy to get going. Masq will very quickly get you to $5 per turn, every turn until you have enough Rc to pin out.

Playing Masq once per turn yourself is not enough to beat this form. As they can gain a 5th (or 6th) Rc and store extras out of deck, they can afford to give up a Rc and still come back next turn or two and pin you. Discard attacks are mostly useless, they can just load up Rc for later and go off from a one card hand. Junking buys some time, but not much as they typically can give it back as fast you can give it out (and +2 cards, trash a card is typically faster than even things like Witch).

Standard Masq counters: Durations, Fortress, Feodum, Squire, Catacombs, Island, Nv, Distant lands, Possession, and possibly some Landmarks (possibly Battlefield, Defiled shrine, Baths, etc.) all can work here as well.

I have not played a mirror, but I imagine you really want to just trash ASAP. Most likely with a Silver/Masq opening and possibly buying a second Masq. A cheap Cantrip, like Pawn will also be helpful for having cheap dross that can let you sacrifice it to a singleton masq play.

[Limetime]

It was talked about on a stream between me a wachsmuth but we decided to keep it a secret so we could reck people with it.
Log dated may 3rd
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160504/log.0.1462324469549.txt

[Seprix]

Wow, a T11 pin? That is completely nasty.

[tailred]

So I just got rekt in a game (forgot to get the log) where my opponent used masquerade and royal carriage to trash all my cards. Basically they got to a point where their deck was just 4 royal carriages and a masquerade so I couldn't do anything.

Has anyone else ran into this pin? How did it go?

Hey, I was that opponent! Wasn't exactly a perfect pin since you forced me to pass a RC with masq, I think you might have been okay if you managed to get a few more masq plays off. Didn't particularly think about storing up extra RCs, that could've helped.

[tailred]

Wow, ran into this again:

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160706/log.0.1467797948787.txt

This time my opponent didn't immediately resign upon the pin, and I had a ton of trouble setting it up thanks to Haunted Woods. Even after snagging a turn with no HW in play, and trashing all his masquerades which protects my pin, I still had the issue of finding a way to end the game on a win. After a few turns of not doing anything, I noticed Native Village and thought to store up coppers on the mat to spike a province or something after nearly emptying copper/curse. However, getting coppers on the mat proved to be more trouble than I had expected, and he had a bit of freedom around the pin, and I was worried that he'd be able to get masquerade himself. Luckily, I managed to mat an estate and started working on crunching the curses when he resigned.

[Seprix]

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

[tailred]

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

[GendoIkari]

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.

[Limetime]

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.

But if you don't draw royal carraige *4 and masq last then you can't keep pinning them.

[GendoIkari]

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.

But if you don't draw royal carraige *4 and masq last then you can't keep pinning them.

Oh, right. Well not just cantrips in general then. But if you use a bunch of lab-type things; then you're fine unless you happen to draw exactly RC*4 and Masq in your initial hand. But even without any thing other than those 5 cards; the rest of what I said stands. Given starting decks of no cards vs those 5 cards; I'm pretty sure it's not possible to win.

[jomini]

...

Ouch, you did that to Emeric? I think he doesn't resign on principle.

I wonder what would've happened if there wasn't an easy way to guarantee a win, with the NV there

Well in general you can have any number of Canttips to go along with the required 5 cards. So at some point, you're just starting a new game, except you start with Masq and 4 RC and some number of Cantrips, while your opponent starts with nothing. So yes, you both have to start buying Copper again, but as soon as you can afford a single action that provides money, you explode into lots of money while your opponent is still buying Silvers.

But if you don't draw royal carraige *4 and masq last then you can't keep pinning them.

Oh, right. Well not just cantrips in general then. But if you use a bunch of lab-type things; then you're fine unless you happen to draw exactly RC*4 and Masq in your initial hand. But even without any thing other than those 5 cards; the rest of what I said stands. Given starting decks of no cards vs those 5 cards; I'm pretty sure it's not possible to win.

More importantly, if you draw Rc x4/Masq you can just wait a turn. So your opponent buys a second copper and has a two card deck? Who cares (outside of Poor house)? You can kill them both the next turn after you mat all the Rc. This is a very forgiving Masq pin.


In general, you are quite right, you burn their deck to the ground and secure a win through end game control.


Then you have a lot of control of end game. With a single pile gone, you can buy a curse, give it to them (say in exchange for a copper) and then kill whatever they buy. You play Masq 2x and ensure they end the turn with a curse every turn and slowly burn off the curse & copper piles for a -1 to 0 win. Remember once you have killed their entire deck (maybe 8-9 turns, tops as you kill 5 cards a go here), you do not need to play the full pin, just enough Masqs to leave them with a curse (e.g. they hold CurC, you play Masq x4 - pass a C, gain a Cur, pass a Cur, gain a C, trash a C, pass nothing, gain a Cur, pass Cur, gain a C, trash a C, buy a C).

With two piles empty they  might rarely be able to empty the curses before you trash deck and then you have some trouble ending on a win, but again for this pin, you kill cards very quickly and they will have a hard time getting all the curses gone quickly enough. They also do not get to save VP cards until the end. Instead if you can kill off the deck entirely before the penultimate curse, you buy a curse, wait a turn, give it to them, and then play 4 Masqs to kill off the copper for a win as above.

With no piles empty you need economy to buy something so you can end the game. For this you kill off the curses (buy em, pass em, and trash em). Then trash away copper until there are 3 left in deck. Buy the antepenultimate copper. They buy or do not buy a copper. You buy the (pen)ultimate copper. You buy an estate. You play Masq, pass an E, gain a C and buy the last copper if needed. They now have 1 VP and no possible source of cash. You have $3. You can buy Silver and build back up.

End game is much trickier with Kc Pins, but there is virtually always a way to win after pinning a deck fully that does not have an easy out (e.g. Alms).

[tailred]

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160726/log.0.1469509068339.txt

I'm so proud of this combo that I'm never letting this thread die
Real-game footage of the start of the endgame (nobody wants to sit through this rubbish all the way). Didn't get to hit the exciting last-3 coppers bit, unfortunately.
Risky kick-off turn, highly suggest having  5 RCs over 4 like I had here.

[LibraryAdventurer]

you are evil

[werothegreat]

With Villa (or Black Market), you can do this without destroying your own deck.

[Chris is me]

With Villa (or Black Market), you can do this without destroying your own deck.

In theory, couldn't you do this with a lot of Action based payloads?

Imagine a deck that builds up to, 6 Market, a Milita, a City Quarter or Scrying Pool or two, 2 RC, Masquerade. You run the pin without greening until their deck is completely empty, then you drain any easy cantrip piles while they do nothing, then if you have to you buy Provinces instead of three piling, while they have no hope of building from nothing back up to something once you stop pinning to green.

[Jeebus]

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

[GendoIkari]

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

[Chris is me]

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

[LastFootnote]

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

It would, however, raise another question in lots of players' minds: "Why wouldn't I have passed a card? Is it optional?"

[Chaos]

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

It would, however, raise another question in lots of players' minds: "Why wouldn't I have passed a card? Is it optional?"

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

But seriously, I don't really mind pins at all, I just think of it as an alternate route to victory that diversifies the game even more. If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."

[Chris is me]

I think it's time Masquerade gets errata now. There are too many combos enabling this pin, and those games are ruined.
Can we pleeeease get a Masquerade errata? Adding "if you do" would do it, right?

Each player passes a card from his hand to the left at once. If you do, you may then trash a card from your hand.

Temporum already found a new wording for Masquerade with Age of Cults:

Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I think this is a little messier wording than cutting off the trash ability unless you actually passed a card. It's clumsier to understand. "If you do" also fixes the pin but doesn't cause any confusion as to which cards go where.

It would, however, raise another question in lots of players' minds: "Why wouldn't I have passed a card? Is it optional?"

This problem presents itself on other cards, like Madman, where the action isn't optional but the "If You Do" is there for reasons. It's even on Moneylender, a card in the Base Set, so I think the idea of "If You Do" coupled with mandatory things is introduced from the get go. So I don't think it's an issue. The people who would be confused by this aren't the people whom either read errata or set up pins anyway.

[Jeebus]

This problem presents itself on other cards, like Madman, where the action isn't optional but the "If You Do" is there for reasons. It's even on Moneylender, a card in the Base Set, so I think the idea of "If You Do" coupled with mandatory things is introduced from the get go.

Exactly. I even have a list of those cards/Events: Dominate, Madman, Moneylender, Ritual, Small Castle, Soothsayer, Summon, Tactician, Trading Post, Treasure Map, Triumph, Wild Hunt

[Deadlock39]

With "If you do", you could still pin the other player with a discard to 3, and then 6 Masquerade plays.  This should break all pins except Royal Carriage, and maybe Discard/Outpost/King's Court/Masquerade, but doesn't completely eliminate the ability to steal/trash your opponents cards.  It is probably still a very strong move if your opponent isn't set up to mirror you relatively quickly.

[Asper]

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."

There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

[GendoIkari]

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."

There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

I think it would feel different if the game ACTUALLY ended on a pin, instead of just continuing as a game that you can't play. It could be something as simple as a rule that's just part of Dominion that says "if you start 2 turns in a row with 0 cards in hand and no Duration cards in play, you lose the game". If that were a general rule, a pin wouldn't "feel" like a pin. It would just feel like your opponent managed to pull of the alternate victory condition of the game.

[Infthitbox]

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."

There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

I think it would feel different if the game ACTUALLY ended on a pin, instead of just continuing as a game that you can't play. It could be something as simple as a rule that's just part of Dominion that says "if you start 2 turns in a row with 0 cards in hand and no Duration cards in play, you lose the game". If that were a general rule, a pin wouldn't "feel" like a pin. It would just feel like your opponent managed to pull of the alternate victory condition of the game.

You can always concede, particularly in 2p.

[eHalcyon]

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

Fun usually isn't zero sum, so...?

[Chaos]

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

Fun usually isn't zero sum, so...?

It's a joke I've heard in the context of Magic; the Gathering where people argue that the less fun their opponent is having then the more fun for them. Generally this joke is made by those who play decks where the goal is to lock the opponent out of the game (like a pin), so when you achieve the lock clearly your opponent is not having any fun, therefore you must be having tonnes of fun to balance it out. I guess a more accurate statement would be that "fun always averages to X" (i.e. if you are having 0 fun I must be having 2X fun) but it's a joke so who cares?

[Deadlock39]

Fortunately, jokes are not 0 sum. Explaining them makes them funnier, so we are all having more fun now that you have explained it.

[GendoIkari]

If somebody pins me I don't think "dumb game, pins are stupid." More like, "wow that's a pretty cool combo my opponent pulled off, well done."

There most certainly are differing sentiments here.

I think it would feel different if the game ACTUALLY ended on a pin, instead of just continuing as a game that you can't play. It could be something as simple as a rule that's just part of Dominion that says "if you start 2 turns in a row with 0 cards in hand and no Duration cards in play, you lose the game". If that were a general rule, a pin wouldn't "feel" like a pin. It would just feel like your opponent managed to pull of the alternate victory condition of the game.

You can always concede, particularly in 2p.

Of course, and as a general rule that's what happens in pins. But being forced to concede really isn't the same in terms of "feel" as your opponent meeting an alternate victory condition. (Though ironically, when the original pin was first found, Isotropic had a bug where if you started your turn with no cards in hand, you couldn't concede).

[eHalcyon]

It also raises the question: "what was wrong with pins, fun is zero sum right?"

Fun usually isn't zero sum, so...?

It's a joke I've heard in the context of Magic; the Gathering where people argue that the less fun their opponent is having then the more fun for them. Generally this joke is made by those who play decks where the goal is to lock the opponent out of the game (like a pin), so when you achieve the lock clearly your opponent is not having any fun, therefore you must be having tonnes of fun to balance it out. I guess a more accurate statement would be that "fun always averages to X" (i.e. if you are having 0 fun I must be having 2X fun) but it's a joke so who cares?

Ah, didn't realize it was a joke.  I mean, in the Magic context, I can totally imagine some players seriously believing this. 

[funkdoc]

the problem here is that it's not hard to screw up the endgame with this pin, so some players just wait it out all the way and hope you hang yourself

agree w/ jeebus, i've done this and it's the least fun i've had playing this game

[tailred]

the problem here is that it's not hard to screw up the endgame with this pin, so some players just wait it out all the way and hope you hang yourself

agree w/ jeebus, i've done this and it's the least fun i've had playing this game

There's a ton of ways to mess up this pin, in the setup and the endgame. I think it's  easier to screw up than to not if you've never done it before.
On the matter of fun, I don't know, I keep finding myself giggling like a little girl everytime I pull it off. Also, though I haven't had a chance to play it yet, I think a mirror would be pretty interesting to play.

[jomini]

the problem here is that it's not hard to screw up the endgame with this pin, so some players just wait it out all the way and hope you hang yourself

agree w/ jeebus, i've done this and it's the least fun i've had playing this game

Ehh, not really. Let's just take a basic setup for this pin: you have 4 Rc and a Masq, they have nothing. You mat all your Rc, play Masq to kill their copper.

T1a: You gain a copper
T1b: They gain a copper
T2a: You play Masq (pass a copper, trash a copper) -> Rc (gain a copper): gain a copper
T2b: They gain a copper
T3a: Mat your Rc, gain a 3rd copper
T3b: They gain a second copper
T4a: You buy a silver
T4b: they buy a 3rd copper
T4a: You have CCCS as your hand, buy a $5
T4b: They buy a S
T5a: You either draw CCCSMasq or CCCMasq5 or CCCS5. The first you most likely will want to play Masq 2x, trash two coppers, and then buy a Silver (so your next hand would be CSSMasq5). The second can be played the same and the third can buy either another $5 or a gold (if your $5 gives any cash), you can also play the 5 multiple times (e.g. if it is something like Butcher or Wine merchant you can rapidly build up an engine).

Outside of exceedingly rare cases once you fully destroy the other guy's deck, you have a HUGE material advantage and are first mover - it is like you have been spotted 6 turns at the beginning of the game. Unless the game is close to 3-piling or you have some easy method of gaining cards (e.g. Alms or Beggar with a discarding pin), you are pretty much never going to make it back from a pin even if the pinner is bad at the end game.

I talk about completely reduced cases, likely buying out all the coppers, because they are easier to map and validate. However if if you just come back with 3C -> S -> whatever you are gaining a stupendous advantage (at least comparable to having the other guy have his Chapel miss the first two shuffles when yours does not). And frankly anyone who can combo up a pin likely knows how to do something that will win with this sort of lead.