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Author Topic: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?  (Read 3084 times)

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vulturesrow

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6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« on: January 27, 2012, 01:21:34 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/26/game-20120126-221827-0f06e7d5.html

Im sure some rather pointless buys hurt me, no? What else?
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jonts26

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 02:14:54 am »
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Without looking through the game in too much detail, I notice one very big thing. Tunnels. I'm pretty sure you don't want to open it like he did, but there are a few cards which make great use of the discard effect. Primarily though, his minions and your minions both. Whenever you force him to discard, you give him the chance for a free gold. And he can also do it himself. His final deck has 12 Gold. That's a lot. Throw in some wharves for +cards and +buy not to mention the 16 points from tunnels alone, and I think that pretty much makes the difference.
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DStu

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 02:31:17 am »
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I think you're right with the buys. Festival usually is good in Minion games, as it's basically an extra Minion which can be used for money but not for new cards, but that's ok. But you have taken some other $5s, is remember Wharf and Stables. Maybe just stay with the Festivals here, but probably I would also have at least been distracted by the Wharf. You also buy a Silver after you already have Mininons, you want as least Silver in the deck as possible.  When Festivals are around, even terminal Silvers are better. Haven is also not that bad.

But I think the bigger mistake is the timinig of your shuffle:
Code: [Select]
— VulturesRow's turn 15 —
   VulturesRow plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... getting +$2.
   VulturesRow plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... long discards the hand.
   ... ... long reveals a Tunnel and gains a Gold.
   ... long draws 4 cards.
   VulturesRow plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... long has 4 cards in hand.
   VulturesRow plays a Minion.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding the hand.
   ... (VulturesRow reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 4 cards.
   ... long has 4 cards in hand.
   VulturesRow plays 3 Coppers and a Silver.
   VulturesRow buys a Festival.
   (VulturesRow draws: a Minion, 2 Coppers, a Secret Chamber, and an Estate.)
And again in turn 24.  You play a ton of Minions and trigger a reshuffle. All the Minions are in your hand, all the crap is in your discard, and after the turn all your crap is in you draw pile and all the good things in your discard. You never* want to trigger a reshuffle in a turn where you played all your good cards.  Turn 15 is followed by 2 $5-turns, and it's no surprise that they can't get you to $8.

That said Minion-engines are decks that, if you get above half of them, can get 4-5 Provinces relativly easy, but have problems to get much more. With support of Festivals they should get a little bit further, but you have some things against you here.  You didn't had any trashing, so all the 10 starting cards stay around.  Because of the Tunnels there are more VPs around and you need more Provinces to win. You felt yourself forced into the Duchies (when I think 5 Provinces are still left), which I don't know is a way you should go.  Minions like to stall, and you can't win the Duchy-dance against a Tunnel-powered deck. So maybe just stay at Festivals or maybe even Wharfs/Stables for $5 and hope that they will help you to get Provinces fast enough to win anyway, maybe with a Duchy right at the end.
And of course the Tunnel really like the Minion, but on the other hand 24 turns does not seem unbeatable.  I don't think I would have played Minion against Tunnel in the first place, but I think there might have been a chance to win it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 02:35:53 am by DStu »
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ftl

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 02:33:06 am »
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I just looked at the top, and one answer is 'tunnels'. I've actually done the sims before because I've played pure minion against minion-tunnel before, and wanted to know which is actually better. Minion-tunnel wins in the sim against pure minion, by like 55-45.

Remember, all 8 tunnels give him 16 points - same as 2 provinces. And they also give him gold when you play your minions.

So if  you go basically pure minion against minion-tunnel, you have to play pretty crisply - it'll come down to a few buys here and there, and you're actually starting out at a strategy disadvantage. Still winnable, of course, but it doesn't take much bad luck or misplaying for it to go the other way. You need to keep hitting $5 exactly, whereas he's okay with drawing 3 (for tunnel), 5 for minion, or 6 for gold, and he can make much better use of the terminals around.

Having good terminals around (wharf!) also favors Minion-tunnel, because it's easier to stick terminals in a deck that's fat with gold and avoid collisions.

The Festivals definitely helped you, they were like 2 more minions. So that's good. Festivals are good for Minion.

I think the Secret Chamber buy was a mistake. Against Minions, it's pretty hard to use the SC right, because you don't know whether you'll have to discard your hand or not... Did it end up helping you the times you used it as a reaction? It definitely tricked you into getting a turn-11 silver, that wasn't good.

On the other hand, you again didn't get any Havens. I think I remember making a comment about Havens in one of your previous games, too. Havens are pretty good, man! They're cantrips, so they help you find your Minions better, they don't get in the way, and they can smooth out draws. There were even a few times when you didn't buy havens on turns when you played 3 coppers and bought nothing! You seem to have something against Havens. Get havens.

So, to summarize:
1) Minion/Tunnel is good, so don't think you had the tactical advantage because you got 6 minions. You were at a disadvantage because he got 8 tunnels. But even once you've picked your strategy, since you're going for pure minion, you did some things wrong...
2) Big mistake, IMO: you didn't get any havens. 
3) Your black market was basically a silver that took an action. You never once used its ability. What were you looking for in the Black Market deck? Was there like a mountebank in there or something?
4) In addition to starting cards you had 5 non-cantrips that you got on the way to Minion - 1 secret chamber, 1 black market, 3 silvers. That's too many. On turn 3, you could have gotten a Feast instead of a Silver, from your Black Market - feast is good! It turns into a minion and then goes away! Some of those, perhaps 2, could have been Havens instead. Would make for a more resilient deck.

Oh, and one strategy option you guys both missed - Fairgrounds. With Black Market around! Again, favors Minion-tunnel, because if he noticed, his gold-filled deck would be much better suited to a long fairgrounds game than yours.
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DStu

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 02:41:58 am »
+1

I just looked at the top, and one answer is 'tunnels'. I've actually done the sims before because I've played pure minion against minion-tunnel before, and wanted to know which is actually better. Minion-tunnel wins in the sim against pure minion, by like 55-45.
Do you have some bots? I actually get the Minion to not lose too much to Minion/Tunnel, but that's only when it also buys Golds and Silvers, so does not at all play a usual Minion-engine. If you try to play "standard-Minion", it will lose really really badly.

Quote
Remember, all 8 tunnels give him 16 points - same as 2 provinces.
Even more...
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ftl

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 03:02:42 am »
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Right, more than 2 provinces. Two and two thirds. Oops. They COST 8, but give 6 points. Dammit. Sorry.

Don't have the bots on me, it was a little ways back. I guess I must have mischaracterized them by calling it pure minion, because you're right, I just re-did the sims and standard minion gets crushed even more by Minion-tunnel, but back then I definitely got to the same conclusion you did, that Minion-Tunnel has only a slight but still noticeable advantage.

Thanks for the corrections.
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Davio

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 03:03:16 am »
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Sometimes I count Provs for 8pts as well when trying to do quick math.  ;D
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 03:28:16 am »
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Right, more than 2 provinces. Two and two thirds. Oops. They COST 8, but give 6 points. Dammit. Sorry.

Sometimes I count Provs for 8pts as well when trying to do quick math.  ;D

Thank you! Apparently, I'm not alone. Almost lost an Isodom-game to that :)
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dondon151

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 04:18:38 pm »
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Occasionally I think Provinces cost $6, especially when I'm trying to buy multiples in 1 turn and I have $24 (which is pretty rare, but it happens).
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RisingJaguar

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Re: 6 Minions, where did I go wrong?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 01:40:05 pm »
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3) Your black market was basically a silver that took an action. You never once used its ability. What were you looking for in the Black Market deck? Was there like a mountebank in there or something?
I agree with most of the other points but this one.  I think he wants more black market (assuming he does dip into both tunnel a bit and festivals).  It has much more use than a silver, if not just to grab $2.  Then paired with golds/coppers floating around, it allows him to consume a couple more dollars that way.  Again this is assuming all other non $5minions are festivals or terminals are useless here.  Basically anything less than $5 should've been a balance of Black Market and havens, especially if its $4 and 2 buys. 
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