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Author Topic: How to play Lost Arts.  (Read 13775 times)

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polot38

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How to play Lost Arts.
« on: June 24, 2016, 03:35:46 am »
+4

The main aspect of any card in dominion is whether it is terminal or not; Lost Arts completely changes that balance. Moat with Lost Arts becomes better than lab, while costing only $2. This happens for many cards, and it isn't hard to think of more examples of cards that become very, very strong as a result of no longer being terminal.

The question, then, is where and when do you buy Lost Arts, and what do you put it on?

It goes without saying that Lost Arts is an engine card; getting +1 action on a card that you will usually only play once a turn isn't a great help.

Anyway, there are two main options in regards to Lost Arts: you can either put it on your terminal draw (think smithy or moat) or put it on your terminal payload (think bridge or goons or mountebank). Both are good options. Obviously, both aren't going to be available on every board that lost arts appears, either. Anyway, lets look at where each approach is good and where each approach fails.

The terminal draw option is quite strong. When there aren't any villages, it can become almost mandatory; even when there are villages, you can simply either ignore the villages or buy a few at the beginning then later stop buying them when you get lost arts onto your terminal draw card, depending on what other terminals you want to play. This somewhat depends on which draw card you are using; cheaper ($4-?) draw cards will like having villages more while more expensive ($5+?) draw cards like getting villages less. This is because the gap of time, and thereby the utility of villages, of smithy to lost arts is longer than that of, say wharf to Lost Arts. Even in the latter case, villages may still be useful if there are some strong terminal payload on the board that you would like to play multiple of. It should also be noted that putting +1 action onto a terminal draw makes your engine much more reliable, as you no longer have to worry too much about drawing your draw without any villages to play it. Finally, just as there not being any villages helps putting your +action onto your terminal draw, having multiple villages also helps because you are't running around trying to fight over the village pile. This approach becomes weaker if there are nonterminal draw cards already in place, especially without villages, as sometimes it may be simply better to buy a lab and put your +action onto a terminal payload rather than worrying about getting lost arts on said terminal draw then getting more villages to play your terminal payload.

The other option is putting it on your terminal payload. This is actually much, much stronger than it may sounds at first, to the point that when it is available, I think that it is usually stronger than putting it on your terminal draw, although you obviously only want to do so when there is a good, spammable terminal payload. Consider first that engines are often able to consistently draw themselves without Lost Arts on a draw card. The next thing to consider is that you can, potentially, get far, far more use out of lost arts on a terminal payload card than a terminal draw. For example, a deck with 7 bridges may only need something like 4 smithy's; putting +1 action on your smithy versus bridge gives 3 less actions over your turn, whereas putting the Lost Arts onto the smithy doesn't do much to increase payload capacity, only reliability. Lost Arts on terminal payload also works wonders when your draw is a draw-to-X card, as your terminal payload is now almost a cantrip, and you no longer have to worry about getting enough villages to play your terminal actions before you play your your draw card either, because before you needed a +action for every terminal payload you want to play. Putting Lost Arts on your payload also works better when villages are contested, as the number of villages needed to play out all the payload you need is usually much larger than the number needed to play all your draw cards. Further, putting Lost Arts on your payload works much better in the general timeline of how your deck is likely to develop anyway because you never have those awkward questions of whether to buy a village or overbuy draw cards.

As usual with dominion, there are some womewhat edge-casey stuff to consider.

An option is to put lost arts on a card that is already nonterminal to create a village when there aren't any on the board. This is uncommon, but sometimes useful when the you need to play multiples of both your terminal payload and terminal draw, or if there are multiple different terminal payload cards that need playing.

In games with 3 or more people, it can often be good to place your +action onto a different card than other players to avoid competing with them. I can't say too much about this, as I don't really play 3+ player dominion that much.

In summary, basically Lost Arts works well when put on terminal draw, but usually works better when put on terminal payload. But don't be an idiot about it either; Lost Arts on Wharf is probably better than Lost Arts on woodcutter.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:57:55 pm by polot38 »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2016, 03:50:17 am »
0

The solution is actually pretty simple: put the +Action token on the card you're going to play most often in a turn.
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polot38

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2016, 03:57:20 am »
+5

The solution is actually pretty simple: put the +Action token on the card you're going to play most often in a turn.

Actually, not quite. If both +draw cards and payload are equal, you prefer putting your +action onto the draw because it increases your engines reliability more than putting it onto your payload. If you have only a small difference between the two, like maybe 4 draws and 5 payloads, it still may be better to +action the draw to get that increased reliability. There is also the thing about if you are playing more of a cantrip than a given terminal; maybe I have a deck where I am drawing with lab and using goons as my payload. Should I really put +action onto lab over goons, even if I have more labs?
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2016, 07:24:35 am »
+1

I think your article is missing some points and you're over stressing economy cards for better than lab draw (deck reliability is super important). Also, what to do on boards with no village? When do you stop bidding villages? Anyway, I'm too tired to think, but you should also link to some logs.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 07:25:49 am by Beyond Awesome »
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DG

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2016, 08:02:15 am »
0

The can be some defensive reasons to place your tokens on particular cards. Cheap 2 cost cards are immune to various trashing attacks and they can also be fast to accumulate later.

Fighting for a share of the supply cards might be important too. In a multiplayer game I'm guessing that different players would put their tokens on different piles, if they've got a choice between smithy and catacombs say, rather than all choose the same pile.
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2016, 10:15:04 am »
+6

Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:16:13 am by Chris is me »
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2016, 10:29:51 am »
+3

The really interesting question is, on a board without Villages, when do you want to put the token in a nonterminal to create a pseudo-Village rather than putting in on the card you want to play the most?
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2016, 11:08:47 am »
0

In the absence of terminal draw, a non-terminal draw card (like Laboratory or Hunting Grounds) can be a good target for Lost Arts for a few reasons:
  • You're likely to have more copies of the non-terminal draw than any one terminal action.
  • The number of draw cards you play is positively correlated with the number of terminal action cards you'll have in your hand.
  • You need the non-terminal draw to kick off your turn, so if you're trying to set up your next turn, you get a village and draw with one card.
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2016, 11:36:44 am »
+3

The really interesting question is, on a board without Villages, when do you want to put the token in a nonterminal to create a pseudo-Village rather than putting in on the card you want to play the most?

Yeah, I find this is often the right thing to do. I very recently played a game with no villages except Lost Arts, and Hunting Party and Margrave as draw. I found it much better to put the token on Hunting party so I could play a bunch of different terminals in a turn rather than playing a whole bunch of Margraves.

Seprix

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2016, 11:48:34 am »
0

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure there really needs to be an article on Lost Arts. Your entire article basically says "put Lost Arts on terminal draw or terminal payload", which goes without saying. There are more complicated Events like Delve and Mission, but Lost Arts is pretty simple in execution.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:49:55 am by Seprix »
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2016, 12:51:16 pm »
+10

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure there really needs to be an article on Lost Arts. Your entire article basically says "put Lost Arts on terminal draw or terminal payload", which goes without saying. There are more complicated Events like Delve and Mission, but Lost Arts is pretty simple in execution.

False. Articles are great. And I think there does need to be discussion about where the best placement of lost arts can go. On a board with no village. Let's say not even a cantrip. Where do you put lost arts? Obviously varies by board, but interesting enough to discuss
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polot38

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2016, 12:54:51 pm »
0

Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.

You are underestimating putting Lost Arts on terminal payload; often, you are going to be able to play your entire deck without lost arts without too much difference between the decks. At that point, having a capacity of like 8 or 9 of your payload rather than however you won the village split is huge.
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Seprix

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2016, 12:59:49 pm »
0

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure there really needs to be an article on Lost Arts. Your entire article basically says "put Lost Arts on terminal draw or terminal payload", which goes without saying. There are more complicated Events like Delve and Mission, but Lost Arts is pretty simple in execution.

False. Articles are great. And I think there does need to be discussion about where the best placement of lost arts can go. On a board with no village. Let's say not even a cantrip. Where do you put lost arts? Obviously varies by board, but interesting enough to discuss

On such a board, it really depends on what else is on the board. Sometimes you might not want to buy Lost Arts, sometimes you do. You cannot analyze whether or not go go for Lost Arts in a case by case basis in an article. The point of an article is rather to give a basic overview of the card, interesting strategies that are powerful enough to go for, and general improved play regarding a card.

When I say 'case by case basis', I am not referring to examples. I think examples should be present in every good article. Examples are general in nature, and to discuss edgecase upon edgecase in an article defeats the purpose of one.

If I were to ask anybody right now how to use Lost Arts, they would tell me already what this article stated. It is not much more complicated than Smithy. Why isn't there a Smithy article? Because the concept is obvious.

Lost Arts is not a very complicated Event. The only thing to really discuss is terminal draw versus terminal payload, and again, it depends on the board. I don't think you can write a very good article on this one topic alone.

I'm all for more articles; I just question whether much can be gained from a Lost Arts article.

edit For the author: I don't mean to be down on you or your writing. I in fact encourage you to keep editing this article you've written. Keep working on it. I hope you prove me wrong and there is in fact more to Lost Arts than I think there is.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:08:01 pm by Seprix »
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2016, 01:54:53 pm »
+6

Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.

You are underestimating putting Lost Arts on terminal payload; often, you are going to be able to play your entire deck without lost arts without too much difference between the decks. At that point, having a capacity of like 8 or 9 of your payload rather than however you won the village split is huge.

Quite frankly, you're wrong. I don't know how else I could spell it out for you. If you have a bigger hand, it is easier to collide cards together. That's just a fact. Lost Arts on payload means you have to collide cards with a standard size hand in order to get to the payload. Lost Arts on draw means you have to collide cards with a much larger hand (maybe even your whole deck) in order to get to the payload. In most cases, it is tremendously easier to draw, then line up cards than it is to line up cards and then draw.

If your draw is nonterminal, sure put Lost Arts on your payload. Maybe your draw is Scrying Pool in a thin deck with no junk. Obviously don't put Lost Arts on that. But these are edge cases, and they are obvious. There are even some situations where it is better to Lost Arts payload than it is to Lost Arts terminal draw, but it certainly is way, way, way less than most of the time as you imply. Only in extremely specific circumstances.
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polot38

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2016, 02:10:19 pm »
0

Yeah, placing Lost Arts ok draw is almost always stronger than putting it on payload. This entire article is just wrong.

It's really quite simple - would you rather have 5 cards to line up Village + Draw, and "free" payload? Or would you rather have "free" draw and as many cards as you want to line up Village + Payload? I think pretty much anyone who has ever played Dominion would take the free draw.

You are underestimating putting Lost Arts on terminal payload; often, you are going to be able to play your entire deck without lost arts without too much difference between the decks. At that point, having a capacity of like 8 or 9 of your payload rather than however you won the village split is huge.

Quite frankly, you're wrong. I don't know how else I could spell it out for you. If you have a bigger hand, it is easier to collide cards together. That's just a fact. Lost Arts on payload means you have to collide cards with a standard size hand in order to get to the payload. Lost Arts on draw means you have to collide cards with a much larger hand (maybe even your whole deck) in order to get to the payload. In most cases, it is tremendously easier to draw, then line up cards than it is to line up cards and then draw.

If your draw is nonterminal, sure put Lost Arts on your payload. Maybe your draw is Scrying Pool in a thin deck with no junk. Obviously don't put Lost Arts on that. But these are edge cases, and they are obvious. There are even some situations where it is better to Lost Arts payload than it is to Lost Arts terminal draw, but it certainly is way, way, way less than most of the time as you imply. Only in extremely specific circumstances.

You are ignoring the point rather than addressing it. Engines without Lost Arts are not weak, and can usually fire, even without trashing or durations. And, once engines fire, it literally doesn't matter whether you overdraw your deck by 20 or by 2; pointing out how many extra cards you draw doesn't change that at all. While it is true that Lost Arts on a draw card increases reliability, it doesn't change that balance so much that putting your +action onto a strong, spammable terminal is weaker; for example, if your deck has a 99% chance of firing but can only hold 3 bridges, while mine has an 80% chance of firing but can hold 7 or 8 bridges, you are going to lose.
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2016, 02:19:30 pm »
+1

Great article, please write more!
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2016, 02:30:20 pm »
+4

You are ignoring the point rather than addressing it. Engines without Lost Arts are not weak, and can usually fire, even without trashing or durations. And, once engines fire, it literally doesn't matter whether you overdraw your deck by 20 or by 2; pointing out how many extra cards you draw doesn't change that at all. While it is true that Lost Arts on a draw card increases reliability, it doesn't change that balance so much that putting your +action onto a strong, spammable terminal is weaker; for example, if your deck has a 99% chance of firing but can only hold 3 bridges, while mine has an 80% chance of firing but can hold 7 or 8 bridges, you are going to lose.

This example doesn't make sense to me. If my engine only has terminal space for 3 Bridges even with Lost Arts backing up my draw, your engine only has terminal space for about 2 draw cards to line up your Bridges (the last draw would draw Bridges dead), and that depends on you first lining up your draw and splitters. 80% chance of firing doesn't sound like a reasonable estimate there.
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2016, 03:00:20 pm »
+2

i think you really underestimate the value of overdrawing your deck.  the strongest engines tend to be based on mid-turn gaining rather than just buying stuff (goons & bridge [troll] aside, obv), so being able to draw and play your shiny new toys without worrying about actions is practically the best thing you can get

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2016, 03:15:50 pm »
+2

bridge [troll]

I think we need a Bridge [Serious].
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 03:39:52 pm »
0

i think you really underestimate the value of overdrawing your deck.  the strongest engines tend to be based on mid-turn gaining rather than just buying stuff (goons & bridge [troll] aside, obv), so being able to draw and play your shiny new toys without worrying about actions is practically the best thing you can get

Mid-turn gaining isn't always possible, and when it is there often isn't a single payload card that you are trying to spam, but rather several, in which case we were never in disagreement.
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2016, 03:41:52 pm »
0

You are ignoring the point rather than addressing it. Engines without Lost Arts are not weak, and can usually fire, even without trashing or durations. And, once engines fire, it literally doesn't matter whether you overdraw your deck by 20 or by 2; pointing out how many extra cards you draw doesn't change that at all. While it is true that Lost Arts on a draw card increases reliability, it doesn't change that balance so much that putting your +action onto a strong, spammable terminal is weaker; for example, if your deck has a 99% chance of firing but can only hold 3 bridges, while mine has an 80% chance of firing but can hold 7 or 8 bridges, you are going to lose.

This example doesn't make sense to me. If my engine only has terminal space for 3 Bridges even with Lost Arts backing up my draw, your engine only has terminal space for about 2 draw cards to line up your Bridges (the last draw would draw Bridges dead), and that depends on you first lining up your draw and splitters. 80% chance of firing doesn't sound like a reasonable estimate there.

When you include trashing, durations, or scheme, such a scenario is very possible. I may have estimated the +draw players action capacity a little low, but the point still stands that the player who got the +action on their bridge gained far more by getting extra payload capacity than they would have if they had chosen to go with reliability.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:48:40 pm by polot38 »
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2016, 03:56:40 pm »
+2

When you include trashing, durations, or scheme, such a scenario is very possible.

It turns out that trying to disprove a generally-speaking statement with edge cases doesn't actually work.

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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2016, 04:00:16 pm »
+2

sometimes it's not about adding lost arts to an engine and do some kind of magic, but it's about playing an engine around lost arts.
For example, if for some reason, I want to play a kind of engine with a lot of different terminal engine pieces, I would consider putting lost arts on pearl diver.
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2016, 04:10:20 pm »
0

When you include trashing, durations, or scheme, such a scenario is very possible.

It turns out that trying to disprove a generally-speaking statement with edge cases doesn't actually work.

If there are enough edge cases, then the edge cases combined cease to be an edge case.

Besides, since when is the existance of trashing considered an edge case? There being at least one way to trash cards is literally more likely than not.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 06:10:53 pm by polot38 »
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Re: How to play Lost Arts.
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2016, 04:22:06 pm »
0

Reliability is much better than you first estimate it to be. It becomes even bigger when you start adding VP cards into your deck. I guarantee your 80% reliability begins to choke hard when the engine gets the fifth Province.
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