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[Chris is me]

Reliability is much better than you first estimate it to be. It becomes even bigger when you start adding VP cards into your deck. I guarantee your 80% reliability begins to choke hard when the engine gets the fifth Province.

Or even, you know, 8 non-drawing payload cards would be enough to choke a deck relying on 2 of 5 cards of every hand being a specific combination...

[eHalcyon]

Reliability is much better than you first estimate it to be. It becomes even bigger when you start adding VP cards into your deck. I guarantee your 80% reliability begins to choke hard when the engine gets the fifth Province.

Or even, you know, 8 non-drawing payload cards would be enough to choke a deck relying on 2 of 5 cards of every hand being a specific combination...

Yeah, that's a major reason I'd say that 80% estimate was high, even with trashing.  As for Durations...

Fishing Village provides so much +actions that Lost Arts is going to leave you with extra no matter whether you put it on draw or payload.  In this case, better go with draw for slight increase in reliability.

Duration draw like Wharf and Haunted Woods aren't exactly terminal draw, so they're not really relevant to the question.  Even if we count them as such, bonus tokens are much less useful on durations in draw-your-deck engines since you'd only get the bonus every other turn.

And then Scheme alone is an edge case.

[Seprix]

Thinking about it, I am actually wrong. There is enough to discuss with Lost Arts.

[luser]

Also part about villages with lost arts is completely wrong as opposite is true. With 4 costs you get to lost arts before collision becomes problem, for example with opening smithy/silver you will likely get LA on turns 3/4 and if not you get second smithy and LA on next shuffle. On other hand for 5 draw costs spiking 5 is problem so you probably will have several turns where you don't want another silver so you will buy village.

[Accatitippi]

bridge [troll]

I think we need a Bridge [Serious].

I think that would be Highway.

[Dunduks]

Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)

[Jack Rudd]

Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)

Well, Torturer is both draw and payload. No surprise that it's a good Lost Arts target.

[allanfieldhouse]

I think the most general-case way to think of this is a kingdom like Village, Smithy, Goons, Lost Arts. For simplicity's sake, say all the piles split 5-5 (and we ignore the end-game condition). Where do you want your Lost Arts?

Option 1: Village
No. Feast or famine. Super villages are just worse than the alternatives.

Option 2: Smithy
This allows you to draw your whole deck easily. Then you play 5 Villages and 5 Goons.

Option 3: Goons
This allows you to freely play your Goons as long as they weren't drawn dead.

Ignoring option 1, both other choices have a best-case scenario of drawing their whole deck and playing 5 goons. The difference really lies in the average-case scenario. The Smithy option relies on having a Smithy in your starting hand. The Goons option relies on having a Village PLUS a Smithy in your starting hand.

This is the point that "Chris is me" keeps making. Putting the +Action on your terminal draw allows you to draw your whole deck, THEN line up your village and payload. Putting the +Action on your payload means you have to line up your village + draw in your initial hand of 5 cards (or 3 in the case of Goons).

Edge case: sure if you win the Goons split 8-2, put the +Action there. But that's an edge case. In the general case of two fairly balanced decks, the terminal draw is the best place to put the token.

[luser]

Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)

Similar holds for witch and mountebank. With LA witch its almost same as cultist. Mountebank is bit luck based as you need to spike 6 reasonably early, then playing multiple mbanks is brutal.

[diedre91]

Lost Arts on Torturer can be brutal. I had one league game something like silver, silver, Torturer, Torturer, Lost Arts on Torturer, Torturer, Torturer, Torturer and opponent resigned. OK, maybe some luck was involved but YMYOSL :-)

Similar holds for witch and mountebank. With LA witch its almost same as cultist. Mountebank is bit luck based as you need to spike 6 reasonably early, then playing multiple mbanks is brutal.

Indeed, LA on Torturer is amazing. Add Ferry on the board and it is just insane! Nice discussion by the way.

[DG]

Lost arts on attacks like witch might be good, but could there be a card that is even better for lost arts because of its cost? Moat

So what is the worst lost arts target? Since champion isn't possible, could is be tactician?

[Deadlock39]

Tactician is probably the worst. It is probably closely followed by 1-shots.

[pedroluchini]

Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?

[Limetime]

Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?

Yes but why?

[ehunt]

Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?

Yes but why?

I thought this would be a good idea on some boards but had to get quite edgecasey.

Kingdom: Marauder, Quarry, Talisman, Stash, Royal Seal, Contraband, Bank, Tunnel, Adventurer, Fairgrounds

Your opponent has given you 3 ruined libraries and no other ruins. Still Gold is probably better but it's close at least.

[Haddock]

WIPED because I feel guilty now.

[AdrianHealey]

Did you have a lot of extra coppers because of ambassador and ill gotten gains?

[Haddock]

Did you have a lot of extra coppers because of ambassador and ill gotten gains?

Yerp. So much copper. And 9 curses. It was a pretty crazy game.

[J Reggie]

Does the Ruins pile count an an Action pile? Can you put the +Action token on it with LA?

Donald X said that one of the Adventures/Dark Ages recommended kingdoms was designed for you to put Lost Arts and Pathfinding on the Ruins pile.

Also, after I typed "one of the", the word my phone suggested was actually "Adventures". I don't know whether to be amazed or worried.

[Infthitbox]

This actually seems like a good spot to mention a bit of an unusual LA usage I did in one of my league games against infthitbox this season.

We probably both did tons wrong, but it was an interesting kingdom: who'd have thought LA on Apothecary would ever make sense?

Kingdom:

Code: [Select]

Lost Arts, Inheritance, Vineyard, Apothecary, Ambassador, Oracle, Alchemist, Talisman, Apprentice, Bandit Camp, Ill-Gotten Gains, Lost City

Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt

I never want to see this game log again in my life.

[Haddock]

I never want to see this game log again in my life.

Ah dude, sorry.   It really REALLY wasn't my intention to bug you or annoy you or rub anything in.  Just thought it was an interesting board.

[Awaclus]

This actually seems like a good spot to mention a bit of an unusual LA usage I did in one of my league games against infthitbox this season.

We probably both did tons wrong, but it was an interesting kingdom: who'd have thought LA on Apothecary would ever make sense?

Kingdom:

Code: [Select]

Lost Arts, Inheritance, Vineyard, Apothecary, Ambassador, Oracle, Alchemist, Talisman, Apprentice, Bandit Camp, Ill-Gotten Gains, Lost City

Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160614/log.0.1465943411131.txt

I never want to see this game log again in my life.

Ah dude, sorry.   It really REALLY wasn't my intention to bug you or annoy you or rub anything in.  Just thought it was an interesting board.

Says he, as he posts yet another post containing that game log.

[Dingan]

I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[Seprix]

I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

I followed that YouTube link manually too. Man, you suck. I can't believe I fell for that.

[J Reggie]

I never want to see this game log again in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

I followed that YouTube link manually too. Man, you suck. I can't believe I fell for that.

Try following it not manually.