Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tlloyd]

So maybe this should go in game reports, since a particular game gave rise to the question, but I just wanted to get people's thoughts on this. I'm not a big fan of Rabble, and so I sometimes lose by not buying it when I should. But I know that Rabble gets stronger toward the end game (more green cards in your opponent's deck), so even when I do buy Rabble I tend to wait. But say it's a board where you might otherwise open with a Smithy. If you get $5/$2, do you go for the Rabble right off the bat? Seems to me like Rabble will on average be a net benefit to the opponent because you cycle his coppers out and his silvers and other stronger cards up a turn or so.

Thoughts?

By the way, I did not open Rabble but bought a few later on. It was generally a money-heavy game. I won, but it was close. My opponent, who has been named a few times in the "Decline of Civility on Isotropic" discussion, told me in a few blunt words just what he thought of my decision to pass on Rabble in my opening. So did I just get lucky? Or did I win for a reason? [Sorry - this really did morph into a game report post].

[ehunt]

Of course it depends on the other fives, but I'd open rabble over most 3s or 4s. The chancellor to your opponent after the first shuffle is unfortunate, but the smithy effect to you on the first shuffle, combined with the fact that you'll definitely prefer the rabble later, outweighs that.

P.S. Sorry to rule for an uncivil opponent!

[rrenaud]

ddubois?

According to the opening stats, Rabble seems like a pretty poor opener.  To me, it's kind of surprising.  It's only positive when paired with a $2.

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Rabble

Code: [Select]

Level +2 2.912 ± 1.075 1 Rabble / Chapel 5/2
Level +1 1.450 ± 1.057 2 Rabble / Lighthouse 5/2
                1.701 ± 1.639 3 Rabble / Crossroads 5/2
And even Smithy beats Rabble on turn 1 and 2 (I guess the paired Silver/Loan is a big deal).

http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Smithy%2CRabble

[toaster]

Although that does seem odd at first, on further reflection is makes sense...deck cycling is especially important in the early game, and Rabble provide your opponent with cycling for free.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't think the "cycling" you give your opponent is all that bad. At the absolute worst you cycle 3 cards for him, but you've increased your deck cycling by the same amount, so your net benefit is the coin value of what you drew, which averages more than $2, making it better than a terminal silver. And if you hit anything other than 3xcopper off the top of his deck, he's getting less benefit.

I wouldn't expect Rabble/nothing to be a great opening, but if you're going to go Rabble anyway (in which case you need at least 3-4 Rabbles at some point) and there are no other great opening options, it's at least better than Silver/nothing.

[timchen]

I learned from him today that spy is a better partner than inn to tunnel, due to the fact that spy does not decrease your hand size.

[DG]

One problem with a rabble opening will be the lack of a good buy on turns 3 and 4. If there wasn't a good buy on turn 1 then you're probably going to be still looking at rabble/nothing/silver/silver, which is going to be worse than silver/silver/rabble/something.

[LastFootnote]

I learned from him today that spy is a better partner than inn to tunnel, due to the fact that spy does not decrease your hand size.

Wait, just to be absolutely clear, this is sarcasm, right? Spy seems like just about the worst card I can think of that still has the ability to discard your own Tunnels.

[jonts26]

I learned from him today that spy is a better partner than inn to tunnel, due to the fact that spy does not decrease your hand size.

Wait, just to be absolutely clear, this is sarcasm, right? Spy seems like just about the worst card I can think of that still has the ability to discard your own Tunnels.

Duchess.

But yeah, spy is not good with tunnels.

[RisingJaguar]

And even Smithy beats Rabble on turn 1 and 2 (I guess the paired Silver/Loan is a big deal).

It's almost entirely that.  Rabble/ - beats (by 'one level') Smithy/-.  This might have some biases involved (someone who opens 5/2 - Smithy/- to someone who opens 4/3 - Smithy/silver is already severely hurt), but I doubt Rabble's effect is a net negative overall in BM.

[DG]

I ran the simulator for 9 turns just buying treasures and the bots do have less to spend if the opponent buys an opening rabble. I tried it with an opening merchant ship, pure money, and smithy.                                                                                                                     

[chwhite]

It must be horrible to go through life knowing that you always have the right strategy, but other people keep winning because they're rotten lucksacks.

[RisingJaguar]

It must be horrible to go through life knowing that you always have the right strategy, but other people keep winning because they're rotten lucksacks.

Phil Helmuth : Story of my life

[dondon151]

This is definitely selective memory at play, but there's the unfortunate instances where your early buys get discarded by an opponent's Rabble and completely miss a shuffle.

[WanderingWinder]

It must be horrible to go through life knowing that you always have the right strategy, but other people keep winning because they're rotten lucksacks.

I'm not sure who this is directed at?

[Lekkit]

I have a feeling that most of the people who feel that way are either really naive and probably not too god at the game, or they are doing something wrong with their strategy. Getting the components for their engine in the wrong order and so on. Luck does play a part in the game, but it's not enough to make the best players loose that much.

[rrenaud]

Either that, or they are #2 on the iso leaderboard. 

Level 46   54.971 ± 8.506   2   2306   allfail

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1286.0

[Lekkit]

I guess lesser players don't keep winning against him since he's #2 on the leaderboard, right? It's one thing not to like the luck part of the game. It's another thing to blame all or most of your losses on luck. Something I get a feeling quite a lot of low level players do. Not all of them, and mostly not the ones around lvl 0-10, but around 10-25.

[Kirian]

It must be horrible to go through life knowing that you always have the right strategy, but other people keep winning because they're rotten lucksacks.

I'm not sure who this is directed at?

I think it was directed at the unnamed oft-uncivil opponent mentioned by the OP.

[chwhite]

It must be horrible to go through life knowing that you always have the right strategy, but other people keep winning because they're rotten lucksacks.

I'm not sure who this is directed at?

I think it was directed at the unnamed oft-uncivil opponent mentioned by the OP.

Yes it was.

[ddubois]

The question isn't "Is Rabble/nothing a good open?" in some abstract sense; the question is, "What is the best of your available options?".  I can't find the game log, but I recall your open, and here is the relevant info:

0.111 ± 0.903      Rabble   5/-
-5.430 ± 3.098      Black Market   3/-

Later on in the game you passed on a King's Court off the black market, because you were action light - a reasonable argument.  But if you didn't have enough actions, presumably because the board was bad for it, that's an big glaring indication that Rabble big money was the right strategy in the first place.

So yes, your open was dumb.