Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jorbles]

When you reveal a Trader to prevent yourself from gaining a Curse from a Torturer (there's a number of other situations where this applies, but this is what I just played) should you not gain the Silver to your hand or does it replace the in hand gain and just let you gain it normally instead?

[ftl]

You just gain it normally, into your discard pile.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Torturer tries to make you gain a curse (to your discard), then move it from discard to hand. If you use trader to gain a silver instead (to your discard), Torturer "loses track" of the curse and moves nothing to your hand. So you end up with the silver in your discard pile.

[Jeebus]

Torturer tries to make you gain a curse (to your discard), then move it from discard to hand. If you use trader to gain a silver instead (to your discard), Torturer "loses track" of the curse and moves nothing to your hand. So you end up with the silver in your discard pile.

That's not correct. It's not quite that complicated. The "lose track" rule is very rarely needed, and it's not needed here.

First of all, Torturer says "he gains a Curse card, putting it in his hand," which means the Curse goes directly to your hand. This is actually from the first rule book: "Gain -- when a player gains a card, he takes the gained card (usually from the Supply) and puts it onto his Discard pile (unless the card says to put it elsewhere)." But if you use Trader it doesn't even matter where the Curse would have gone, because the gain never happens. Instead, you get a new gain, which is "you gain a Silver," with no qualifiers.  As per the standard rules, this Silver comes from Supply and goes to you discard. This is also explained in the FAQ for Trader.

If hypothecally Torturer had instead said "he gains a Curse card, and then puts it in his hand," it would be two instructions. So the Curse would go to your discard. In this case the second instruction would indeed try to execute after you've cancelled the first instruction and gained a Silver instead. But even then there's no "lose track" rule needed since the card doesn't even exist. Torturer didn't gain you a Curse, so the second instruction fails. It would be like if the Curse pile was empty; the first instruction fails, so the second can't be resolved.

[Anon79]

Agree with Jeebus. The Curse from Torturer doesn't ever reach your discard pile; similarly when you play Mine or Explorer, the treasure you gain doesn't ever go through your discard pile. The gained card goes straight to hand.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Agree with Jeebus. The Curse from Torturer doesn't ever reach your discard pile; similarly when you play Mine or Explorer, the treasure you gain doesn't ever go through your discard pile. The gained card goes straight to hand.

Sure it does; When the other guy plays his next Torturer...

[HiveMindEmulator]

You're right, it's not "losing track". It just can't do it since the curse doesn't exist. But I maintain that "gain X, putting it in hand" means gain to discard, then move to hand. I'm not sure it ever really matters. But I feel like the definition of "gain" is move something from supply to discard, otherwise it's too vague.

[Jeebus]

But I maintain that "gain X, putting it in hand" means gain to discard, then move to hand. I'm not sure it ever really matters. But I feel like the definition of "gain" is move something from supply to discard, otherwise it's too vague.

If that were what "gain" meant, then Watchtower would indeed lose track of every card that you gained that was moved to somewhere else. For instance you couldn't use Watchtower to trash Curses you got from a Sea Hag or Torturer. And this is exactly what people were asking when they considered the implication of lose-track while also thinking that "gain" always means to discard, see this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7937101#7937101
I admit to being among those people. But, see my quote from the base game rules!  If you just read it, it's very clear. Gaining can also be straight to your hand or discard pile. Donald confirmed it also of course, in the same thread.

Much of the confusion arose from Watchtower. That card (like Royal Seal) triggers when the card is gained, so in that case the card will be where it was gained to, and then moved by Watchtower.

[petrie911]

But I maintain that "gain X, putting it in hand" means gain to discard, then move to hand. I'm not sure it ever really matters. But I feel like the definition of "gain" is move something from supply to discard, otherwise it's too vague.

If that were what "gain" meant, then Watchtower would indeed lose track of every card that you gained that was moved to somewhere else. For instance you couldn't use Watchtower to trash Curses you got from a Sea Hag or Torturer.

Well, no, because Watchtower would react to the gain event before the effect that moves it to the hand/deck.  Torturer would gain a curse to your discard, Watchtower reacts and trashes it, and then Torturer attempts to move it to your hand but loses track of the Curse because it's in the trash now.

I'm not saying that's actually how it works, but that's how it would if "gain to hand" meant "gain to discard, then move to hand".

[Jeebus]

Well, no, because Watchtower would react to the gain event before the effect that moves it to the hand/deck.  Torturer would gain a curse to your discard, Watchtower reacts and trashes it, and then Torturer attempts to move it to your hand but loses track of the Curse because it's in the trash now.

Agh. You're right of course; Watchtower would still be able to trash a Curse from Torturer or Sea Hag. Now I'm adding to the confusion, when I tried to remove some of it. Luckily this was only a hypothetical, so hopefully most people ignored it. Interestingly, as you say, if that were what "gain" meant, we would need lose-track every time we used Watchtower on a gain that went to someplace other than discard.

[GendoIkari]

But I maintain that "gain X, putting it in hand" means gain to discard, then move to hand. I'm not sure it ever really matters. But I feel like the definition of "gain" is move something from supply to discard, otherwise it's too vague.

Just happened upon this... Donald specifically contradicted this just recently at BGG:

Reading through this thread and just want to clarify something that was perhaps not sufficiently clarified: Mine, Sea Hag and Develop do indeed gain you cards straight to the top of your deck; they don't go to discard first. There are other cards like this too: Bureaucrat, Torturer, Trading Post, Treasure Map, Explorer, Bag of Gold, Tournament, Fool's Gold, Nomad Camp, Ill-Gotten Gains (the Copper). I think that's an exclusive list.

Watchtower and Royal Seal, on the other hand, trigger when you gain a card, moving it from wherever it was gained to, and placing it either on the top of your deck or in Trash.

I haven't checked if that's an exhaustive list, but yes, the gained cards for Bureaucrat etc. don't "visit" the discard pile. This is unlike Thief, where the trashed cards do visit the trash. Watchtower and Royal Seal move a card after it's already gained, so it's already sitting wherever it went before it gets moved.