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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 73594 times)

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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #200 on: June 24, 2016, 05:53:38 pm »
0

Okay, I think I have a method that is O(X*9^X). Which means that given a large enough starting X, it should beat X^64.

So Crown. Crown is an Action and a Treasure. Which means you can play it when you Black Market.

Start by nixing all the +Cards from the game, so no Haunted Woods, Council Room, etc. Probably makes X a lot lower.
Also put +$1 token on Overlord

Then, start by playing Black Market
Play Crown
Now you can play whatever Action you want, for example Overlord as Crown.
Repeat ~X times.
Play Black Market with Crown, buying Doctor(overbought by ~X), trashing X Rocks and gaining X Silver in hand
Play Black Market again, playing X Silver for $3X, buying Mint, trashing X Overlords
Play Overlord again. It's trashed, so choose to play it as Black Market, overbuying Doctor by ~3X, trashing 3X Rocks and gaining 3X Silver in hand
Repeat ~X times
You end up with ~X*3^X. Buy X*3^X/7 Travelling Fairs and X*3^X/7 Balls, to gain you X^2*(3^X/7)*3^X Silver, or X^2*(9^X)/7 Silver.

The limiting factor here is +Cards; since you can't draw any more Overlords than you start with, you're stuck.

Easier to understand variant is +Action +Buy +$ on Black Market and just overbuy Doctor like that. But then your starting $ is really low.

Tactician, Horse Traders and Scout are allowed, I think. Council Room, Golem, Crossroads, and Haunted Woods are out. Cellar is out because Cellar Rocks.

So to beat 10^679, I would need X~711 cards in the opening hand; right now, I can only figure out how to get to ~10^17. Open to suggestions as to how to get higher/have a better return rate. In theory it should outscale, but only if the opening hand can be made large enough without +Cards.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2016, 06:07:18 pm »
0

Hey, that one also added exactly one order of magnitude, stef. @ephesos, I believe my strategy is actually O(X^256), but more importantly you aren't allowed to play overlord as crown during a buy phase according to the wiki. I actually don't follow your plan much at all right now.

Also, stef I definitely have exactly one big idea not in the thread, but I also now have a few smaller tricks (that it sounds like you don't have) which added 10-50 orders of magnitude each, so hopefully when I find your last big one I'll be ahead.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 06:09:57 pm by liopoil »
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JW

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2016, 06:20:02 pm »
0

You end up with ~X*3^X. Buy X*3^X/7 Travelling Fairs and X*3^X/7 Balls, to gain you X^2*(3^X/7)*3^X Silver, or X^2*(9^X)/7 Silver.

I'm not sure I follow the whole process (why do you need to buy Mint? I assume that you only do that once?), but shouldn't you be buying Raid, not Ball, to maximize gains?
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2016, 06:50:13 pm »
0

My initial hand size is still hovering around 100 and it turns out that slightly improving that doesn't make a big enough difference, so I will look somewhere else.

I don't think it is possible to play golem more than 8 times. 3 of the 16 slots are claimed by crossroads and 2 necros, and in the other 13 I don't think we can do better than 6 black markets, 6 storerooms, and one ___.

I already have some tricks going on in the black market phases and with the ___ at the end.

Maybe there is something better to do with the silvers than just storerooming them? Those are taking up 6 slots. Playing black market just results in twice as many silvers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2016, 07:10:16 pm »
+1

Hey, that one also added exactly one order of magnitude, stef. @ephesos, I believe my strategy is actually O(X^256), but more importantly you aren't allowed to play overlord as crown during a buy phase according to the wiki. I actually don't follow your plan much at all right now.

Black Market isn't a Buy phase.  You can play Crown after Black Market because it's a treasure. Since it's still the action phase, Crown lets you play an action from your hand twice, e.g. Overlord. Since Crown is an action costing up to $5, Overlord can be Crown.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2016, 07:12:59 pm »
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Okay, I think I have a method that is O(X*9^X). Which means that given a large enough starting X, it should beat X^64.
disclaimer: I don't fully understand what you're doing, so maybe I talk nonsense.

If you call the size of the starting hand X with both strategies, then yes, your strategy out-scales the currently dominant one.
But I don't think that's really a fair comparison. In your strategy, the limiting factor is starting hand so you should write your profit as a function of that.
In "our" strategy the limiting factor is this number of actions you get to play.


About your strategy: Why are you including the Overlord, Crown & Mint? It seems to be equivalent to just using King's Court and Black Market straight away.
I don't see a way to draw more than 14 useful cards at the start of your turn (5 regular, 5 from tactician, 4 from expedition), which would allow for 25 black market plays.
You can easily add ~70 Silvers to that hand (opponent playing a lot of KC Swindler, always hitting Rocks and replacing with Rocks) but that doesn't really help.
The real limiting factor is that you have no way of replacing these silvers with the much more useful banks.

am I missing something? Any chance Adventurer can help your plan? It draws Crowns, but not Overlords or Black Markets.
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mith

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2016, 07:39:02 pm »
+1

You end up with ~X*3^X. Buy X*3^X/7 Travelling Fairs and X*3^X/7 Balls, to gain you X^2*(3^X/7)*3^X Silver, or X^2*(9^X)/7 Silver.

I'm not sure I follow the whole process (why do you need to buy Mint? I assume that you only do that once?), but shouldn't you be buying Raid, not Ball, to maximize gains?

I think the Mint is to cause the Overlord-as-Crown to revert to Overlord, so that when you play it a second time you can choose a different action to copy.

Also, I think this thread gave me a headache. :)
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JW

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2016, 07:44:19 pm »
0

I think the Mint is to cause the Overlord-as-Crown to revert to Overlord, so that when you play it a second time you can choose a different action to copy.

Also, I think this thread gave me a headache. :)

Couldn't you instead play Black Market - Crown - a number of Overlords (as Crown) - a number of Overlords (as Black Market)? Stef pointed out that King's Court-Black Market may be superior regardless, though.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2016, 07:46:05 pm »
0

My initial hand size is still hovering around 100 and it turns out that slightly improving that doesn't make a big enough difference, so I will look somewhere else.

I don't think it is possible to play golem more than 8 times. 3 of the 16 slots are claimed by crossroads and 2 necros, and in the other 13 I don't think we can do better than 6 black markets, 6 storerooms, and one ___.

I already have some tricks going on in the black market phases and with the ___ at the end.

A Crossroads at the end will double your hand size, though all of the additional cards will be Harems (turn Silvers into Harems with your last Storeroom, then draw Banks with the Crossroads).
I don't think that's as good as my current ____, which squares my gains. Doubling handsize isn't worth much in terms of orders of magnitude. It's also not worth it to play storeroom before then first black market after crossroads, and also not better to play the crossroads later. The only way I can imagine improving the actions played is substituting... something... for storeroom.

Or, being able to play just one more golem would easily break 10103
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 07:49:46 pm by liopoil »
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2016, 08:08:20 pm »
+16

I'd like to propose a different strategy to get as high as possible.  It uses the following kingdom:




And it culminates in buying Bonfire 420 times.



My mind is a bit muddled though so I'm having trouble optimizing it.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2016, 08:34:25 pm »
+6

eHalcyon, with Teacher + any cantrip, you can get unbounded gains. Just put your +buy token on the cantrip.
Yes, but how high he gets is still bounded by how long it takes for the wine merchant to pass out.
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tailred

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2016, 10:32:54 pm »
0

eHalcyon, with Teacher + any cantrip, you can get unbounded gains. Just put your +buy token on the cantrip.
I suppose you could dump all the cantrips into the BM.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #212 on: June 24, 2016, 10:45:54 pm »
0

eHalcyon, with Teacher + any cantrip, you can get unbounded gains. Just put your +buy token on the cantrip.
I suppose you could dump all the cantrips into the BM.
If this involves peasant upgrades (which i strongly assume since there would be no point in peasant without the upgrades), peasant needs to be in the kingdom, since otherwise you can't exhange it. But then you can put +1 action token on peasant, and together with the unbounded draw from alchemist, you get unbounded buys.
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Kirian

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #213 on: June 24, 2016, 10:49:37 pm »
+5

I'm just watching this thread to see when you guys start using up-arrows.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #214 on: June 24, 2016, 11:00:55 pm »
+6

I'm just watching this thread to see when you guys start using up-arrows.
Well, peasant is highly problematic as we just saw, and page gives unlimited draw and actions easily, so it doesn't work either.
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #215 on: June 24, 2016, 11:08:02 pm »
+2

eHalcyon, with Teacher + any cantrip, you can get unbounded gains. Just put your +buy token on the cantrip.
I suppose you could dump all the cantrips into the BM.
If this involves peasant upgrades (which i strongly assume since there would be no point in peasant without the upgrades), peasant needs to be in the kingdom, since otherwise you can't exhange it. But then you can put +1 action token on peasant, and together with the unbounded draw from alchemist, you get unbounded buys.

Absolutely not.  We just need Peasant for the art; it never needs to be exchanged.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #216 on: June 24, 2016, 11:50:35 pm »
0

Baker effectively gives unbounded coins when you go off.

Edit: it's a drug joke. Dangit.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:53:09 pm by JacquesTheBard »
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Kirian

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #217 on: June 25, 2016, 01:03:28 am »
+2

I'm just watching this thread to see when you guys start using up-arrows.
Well, peasant is highly problematic as we just saw, and page gives unlimited draw and actions easily, so it doesn't work either.

I see what you did there.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #218 on: June 25, 2016, 03:07:06 am »
0

Okay, I think I have a method that is O(X*9^X). Which means that given a large enough starting X, it should beat X^64.
disclaimer: I don't fully understand what you're doing, so maybe I talk nonsense.

If you call the size of the starting hand X with both strategies, then yes, your strategy out-scales the currently dominant one.
But I don't think that's really a fair comparison. In your strategy, the limiting factor is starting hand so you should write your profit as a function of that.
In "our" strategy the limiting factor is this number of actions you get to play.


About your strategy: Why are you including the Overlord, Crown & Mint? It seems to be equivalent to just using King's Court and Black Market straight away.
I don't see a way to draw more than 14 useful cards at the start of your turn (5 regular, 5 from tactician, 4 from expedition), which would allow for 25 black market plays.
You can easily add ~70 Silvers to that hand (opponent playing a lot of KC Swindler, always hitting Rocks and replacing with Rocks) but that doesn't really help.
The real limiting factor is that you have no way of replacing these silvers with the much more useful banks.

am I missing something? Any chance Adventurer can help your plan? It draws Crowns, but not Overlords or Black Markets.

Hmmm, I thought that because you're always writing like starting hand and number of coins for Black Market buy, that your strategy is a function of that number, as well as the exponent on that number being hard capped by number of Actions i.e. X^2^(2*A), where A is at most 6. Like, if your strategy has 20 starting cards, you can do something like 2^256 times as well as starting with 10 cards, because you can use your 6 actions to square 12 times. So it makes sense to use starting cards as X, since your gains are limited by starting cards in hand as well.

Another thing is your limit on Black Market plays is Actions available, mine is cards in hand, which is a heck of a lot higher. However, your Black Markets square and mine just multiply by 3.



The Overlord trickery was mostly because I thought of it and it seemed cool. However, there's also the issue of the initial seed money being low, which I didn't think of using Rocks+trashing to solve before. So KC/Black Market is probably better.

With that, you need like 1/3 of your cards to be King's Court, but you play the other 2/3 of your Black Markets three times, so you get up to 2X plays of Black Market. If I is your initial money from $ token, Silver in starting hand, etc. then you get an I*3^2X ending hand of Silvers, and O(I^2)O(81^X) gains using Raid.

Expedition is unlimited with Travelling Fair and Platinum, so that's out unless there's a different better end payload than squaring(which, if you do it out, is like doubling the hand size).



Properly done out:
Setup: Play Tactician. Opponent, on a Tactician turn, plays 3 King's Courts and 5 Swindlers. He then plays Tactician and buys Messenger for Rocks and Mission. For the next hand, he plays 3 King's Courts and 4 Swindlers, Outpost, and Tactician, and the third he plays 3 King's Courts and 5 Swindlers, buying Messenger for Rocks. Total, that's 14 Swindlers tripled for 42 Silver in hand. (No Watchtower because another Black Market is just loads better.)

Then, we have a hand of 4 King's Courts and 6 Black Markets. So that's 3^18*3*42 ending Silver, 3^18*3*42/7*3^18*3*42 gains is a paltry 10^20....

Main issue really is X is different, because different cards are being used to reach it. If X was like 760 it would work... but the loss of stuff like Haunted Woods and Council Room might just be too great to bear.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:09:14 am by ephesos »
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #219 on: June 25, 2016, 03:10:51 am »
0

I think the Mint is to cause the Overlord-as-Crown to revert to Overlord, so that when you play it a second time you can choose a different action to copy.

Also, I think this thread gave me a headache. :)

Couldn't you instead play Black Market - Crown - a number of Overlords (as Crown) - a number of Overlords (as Black Market)? Stef pointed out that King's Court-Black Market may be superior regardless, though.

Yeah, I could. But this is much cooler :)
Also, this way you get to play all the Overlords as Crown first, allowing you to start with all that extra $ from the +$ token on Overlord. The other way, your first BM comes when you're like halfway through. So that was why it was better. Your way and you get pretty much just as many Black Market plays as playing them all just from the starting hand with a +Action token. Which is cool, and all that. KC-BM still beats both though.
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Chris is me

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #220 on: June 25, 2016, 09:22:20 am »
0

Baker effectively gives unbounded coins when you go off.

Edit: it's a drug joke. Dangit.

I legitimately can't believe it took this entire forum like nine posts to figure this out. Nerrrrrrds. :P

I would contend that the kingdom needs Raze, because you can't #420BlazeIt without #420RazeIt.
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Chaos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #221 on: June 25, 2016, 12:24:07 pm »
0

Properly done out:
Setup: Play Tactician. Opponent, on a Tactician turn, plays 3 King's Courts and 5 Swindlers. He then plays Tactician and buys Messenger for Rocks and Mission. For the next hand, he plays 3 King's Courts and 4 Swindlers, Outpost, and Tactician, and the third he plays 3 King's Courts and 5 Swindlers, buying Messenger for Rocks. Total, that's 14 Swindlers tripled for 42 Silver in hand. (No Watchtower because another Black Market is just loads better.)

Then, we have a hand of 4 King's Courts and 6 Black Markets. So that's 3^18*3*42 ending Silver, 3^18*3*42/7*3^18*3*42 gains is a paltry 10^20....

Main issue really is X is different, because different cards are being used to reach it. If X was like 760 it would work... but the loss of stuff like Haunted Woods and Council Room might just be too great to bear.

FWIW I think you can do better with this strategy if you add golem (I think it's fine with no actual card draw) if you start with a hand of entirely golems you can play one hitting KC and X (swindler for the opponent, black market for us). Then use KC first on a golem again hitting KC plus 5X and repeat for as many golems as you have in hand. With a 10 card hand (tactician) this leads to (I think) 47 plays of either black market or swindler. Using coin token on golem should help increase the starting coin. Buy token on black market cause why not?

The number of golems can get up to 12 using save and overgrown estate but we still don't get anywhere near as high as stef/liopoil.

Also, buying raid is way better than ball.

One question: how are you trippling with each black market play? Isn't it double since each coin becomes a silver.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #222 on: June 25, 2016, 12:55:58 pm »
+1

Starting with a 12 card hand of KC and 11 golems gets you 33 golem plays and so 66 slots, 10 of which are occupied by KC for 56 plays of black market. You can get 13 coins fromgolem/black market and your opponent can give you 56 silvers for 125 coins. After 55 more plays if black market how many gains do you end up with?

EDIT: Now that you all are talking about raid I'll tell you about my main extra thing I'm doing with my strategy:

After playing 6 black markets and 6 storerooms I am left with b banks, and b is around 10^150. I play a black market and play all the banks again for around b^2 silver in hand. I play all these silvers and buy around b^2 raids each gaining b^2 silvers so I end up with b^4 ~ 10^600 gains.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 12:59:26 pm by liopoil »
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Chaos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #223 on: June 25, 2016, 01:54:38 pm »
+2

12 golems is better than 11+KC right? Since the first golem is a KC and an extra black market.

Your opponent can give you more like 150 silvers using outpost and mission. First turn:55 silvers. (57 minus 2 for tactician (discard a silver from a swindler on our previous turn) and outpost) buy mission and messenger (another silver) and donate (this should give a five card outpost turn right?) second turn: 40 silvers (9 golems and a card to discard to fact) buy messenger. Third turn: 47 silvers (10 golems) buy messenger.

Total: 55+1+40+1+47+1=145 silvers.

So the starting coin is 290+12(golems with coin token) + 2(black market) = 304coins.

I'll edit with the number of gains once I do the calculation.

EDIT: 2.67E38
        So not very high (relatively)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 02:21:59 pm by Chaos »
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #224 on: June 25, 2016, 02:02:53 pm »
0

Baker effectively gives unbounded coins when you go off.

Edit: it's a drug joke. Dangit.

I legitimately can't believe it took this entire forum like nine posts to figure this out. Nerrrrrrds. :P

I would contend that the kingdom needs Raze, because you can't #420BlazeIt without #420RazeIt.

Nah, there were certainly some who caught on earlier. I'm just surprised that people were so concerned about Teacher. Baker was mentioned late and Alchemist wasn't mentioned at all even though both would be unbounded even in the Black Market. Apothecary too, though that's slightly less obvious.
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