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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 93815 times)

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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #175 on: June 24, 2016, 10:22:45 am »
0

Now up to a starting hand size of 103 (31 horse traders, 2 necros), 23848 coins by the first black market, and 10^522 gains in the end.

Stef, is your number gains or coins? My number is gains, and I can't get anywhere close to that many coins...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:49:34 am by liopoil »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #176 on: June 24, 2016, 11:12:44 am »
+1

Stef, is your number gains or coins? My number is gains, and I can't get anywhere close to that many coins...
Yes it's gains for me too. I switched from reporting coins to reporting gains when I stopped using Masterpiece.
(A while ago I was using only 1 buy in the payload turn, because I was using Wharves rather than Haunted Woods in the setup turn. Being able to generate a limited number of buys results in enabling Expeditions, which means a lot larger starting hand. Now I dropped that idea because it can't compete at all to having a huge amount of buys in your payload turn).

Now up to a starting hand size of 103 (31 horse traders, 2 necros), 23848 coins by the first black market, and 10^522 gains in the end.
Be careful here. There might be a way around it, but having those necro's in hand means your golem can't just find them.
You get one reshuffle for free, but not two. (I don't know what your setup turn(s) look like)
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #177 on: June 24, 2016, 11:17:43 am »
+4

Hey, so this maybe goes nowhere, but... Rats.

If Rats is in the supply, it can gain an unlimited number of Rats. But if Rats is in the Black Market, it can't gain any Rats.

If you have Rats available, you can't have Golem because they combine to make a Village, but trashing Rats with the Doctor overpay gets you whatever cards you want, so you don't have to use Storeroom, so the number of cycles would remain the same.

I think this also allows you to use your Necros for the first 2 cycles and use Crossroads when your handsize is much larger. Not sure if that is better, but maybe it allows something else to be optimized.

PPE: Regarding the Necros in hand, if it is an issue, You can use Margrave instead of Council Room I think.

Edit: I want to credit ghostofmars here because he said basically the same thing, and I only pointed out that we can use Rats if it is sourced from the Black Market. Looking back at the details of his post, it looks like we don't get an extra Black Market play from Tactician, so it isn't looking like an improvement.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:13:18 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Chaos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #178 on: June 24, 2016, 11:28:20 am »
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I don't think rats is worth losing golem since it makes the starting hand size so much bigger.

With rats you get tactician and 5 haunted woods but with golem you get 13 haunted woods.
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #179 on: June 24, 2016, 11:34:03 am »
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I don't think rats is worth losing golem since it makes the starting hand size so much bigger.

With rats you get tactician and 5 haunted woods but with golem you get 13 haunted woods.

Good call. I have this problem with forgetting about all the other parts of the solution...

Might depend on if playing the Crossroads later has a significant effect or not... Also getting the Tactician back could be huge if it gets us another cycle.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:35:17 am by Deadlock39 »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #180 on: June 24, 2016, 11:43:42 am »
+1

Might depend on if playing the Crossroads later has a significant effect or not
Shouldn't it be better to play it earlier? The CRossroads increases our hand size less than a BM.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #181 on: June 24, 2016, 11:46:46 am »
0

Quote
Now up to a starting hand size of 103 (31 horse traders, 2 necros), 23848 coins by the first black market, and 10^522 gains in the end.
Be careful here. There might be a way around it, but having those necro's in hand means your golem can't just find them.
You get one reshuffle for free, but not two. (I don't know what your setup turn(s) look like)
We can discard them with Storeroom at some point, along with all the other cards we need to play later in the turn, as well as cards that we used in our setup turn (which is just 1 attack and cards we need anyway I think).
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #182 on: June 24, 2016, 11:50:39 am »
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Might depend on if playing the Crossroads later has a significant effect or not
Shouldn't it be better to play it earlier? The CRossroads increases our hand size less than a BM.

I'm really not sure here because I haven't wrapped my head around the way Black Market increases hand size. The Banks give O(n^2) coins right?, so Black Market squares hand size, and Crossroads doubles hand size. (Okay, so now I figured it out and am sure you are correct.)

I guess that does mean that the earlier the better for Crossroads.

But if we get an additional Black Market play from being able to have Tactician, that should square the total gains, which should be worth more than some initial hand size right?

Edit: It is probably only a x3ish improvement on the end, but this route allows for Highway also, to get free Hunting Grounds buys (are we even still buying Hunting Grounds?)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:17:15 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Chaos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #183 on: June 24, 2016, 12:42:05 pm »
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I have no idea if we're still buying hunting grounds but without highway it is still possible to use ferry and two quarries.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #184 on: June 24, 2016, 01:12:01 pm »
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Tactician, crossroads, 2 necros gives 6 actions. So we only get 6 cycles with tactician/rats instead of golem. With golem instead of tactician/rats we had 6.5 cycles. So unless I'm missing something it isn't worth it yet, but maybe there is another trick to make it work.
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Seprix

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #185 on: June 24, 2016, 01:16:00 pm »
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The main issue is getting all of the buys you need, really. You can just buy Hunting Grounds en mass and trash them with Watchtower for 3 Estates.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #186 on: June 24, 2016, 01:21:24 pm »
+1

The main issue is getting all of the buys you need, really. You can just buy Hunting Grounds en mass and trash them with Watchtower for 3 Estates.
Yes, and the easiest way to get buys by far is travelling fair. So the main issue is getting all the coins you need.

Stef's idea to limit the buys in order to open up expedition and other ideas is certainly interesting. But now Stef and I are probably both gaining cards in the same way, which requires buys. It isn't hunting grounds.

EDIT: A while ago somebody had the idea to have both tactician and golem but remove all draw cards. I think that should work now actually. We just remove council room and hunting grounds now when golem hits tactician and something else, there is no 'something else' which could cause the turn to continue. Even if it hits black market into doctor into rocks, you just have a hand full of silver. Haunted woods doesn't draw, crossroads and storeroom don't draw with an empty hand... oops what about masquerade. We can't remove masq because the only point of tactician was to give us another action, and we need both necros. Oh well, I don't think this works.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:29:44 pm by liopoil »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #187 on: June 24, 2016, 01:34:27 pm »
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Stef's idea to limit the buys in order to open up expedition and other ideas is certainly interesting. But now Stef and I are probably both gaining cards in the same way, which requires buys. It isn't hunting grounds.

Are you providing a clue or fishing for a response from me? ;)


I am a bit intrigued by your starting hand of 103 though. That's about 10 more cards than what I have. So far I haven't been able to use passing the necros during the setup turn usefully, but the fact that you have them in hand suggests that you do.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #188 on: June 24, 2016, 01:43:15 pm »
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Stef's idea to limit the buys in order to open up expedition and other ideas is certainly interesting. But now Stef and I are probably both gaining cards in the same way, which requires buys. It isn't hunting grounds.

Are you providing a clue or fishing for a response from me? ;)


I am a bit intrigued by your starting hand of 103 though. That's about 10 more cards than what I have. So far I haven't been able to use passing the necros during the setup turn usefully, but the fact that you have them in hand suggests that you do.
I'm just doing a slightly modified version of what watno suggested. You might be right that there could be a problem with finding the necros again. I need to shuffle after the setup turn to re-draw the necros, then when I discard the necros later my golem might not be able to find them. There's got to be a way around that though.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #189 on: June 24, 2016, 01:50:02 pm »
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What if the other player has Outpost, and plays a few more council rooms with that extra turn?
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #190 on: June 24, 2016, 01:58:28 pm »
+1

What if the other player has Outpost, and plays a few more council rooms with that extra turn?
We're already having them take three turns with outpost and mission.

I just had an idea to try to use summon to get an extra play, but I think with enough time you could just buy arbitrarily many summons the turn before.

EDIT: Came up with a convoluted way to fix the necropolis problem, which I'll keep secret from stef.

EDIT: Up to 104 starting cards, 24594 coins for the first black market, and 10^524 gains.

EDIT: Another idea! Up to 10^599 now! My spreadsheet is going to get unhappy with me soon...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 04:13:30 pm by liopoil »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #191 on: June 24, 2016, 04:08:35 pm »
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having another close look at the setup turn improved it to:

(X,Y) = (10702,10X)
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #192 on: June 24, 2016, 04:21:33 pm »
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Well, I now have 10^600, and my kingdom explicitly uses ~28 cards/events. Oh hey I got another idea, great. I am going to need to find a better calculating system soon though.

EDIT: 10^616, my idea wasn't as awesome as I had hoped.

EDIT: 10^631...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 04:59:51 pm by liopoil »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #193 on: June 24, 2016, 04:49:20 pm »
+1

Here, have an idea for free, because I'm in a good mood.

In the setup turns of your opponent, start by buying Messenger, handing out Rocks.
Doesn't work in the mission turn, but should gain you two free Silvers in hand.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #194 on: June 24, 2016, 04:59:58 pm »
+1

What if the other player has Outpost, and plays a few more council rooms with that extra turn?
We're already having them take three turns with outpost and mission.

Wait... I thought it was impossible to stack those.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #195 on: June 24, 2016, 05:03:38 pm »
+1

What if the other player has Outpost, and plays a few more council rooms with that extra turn?
We're already having them take three turns with outpost and mission.

Wait... I thought it was impossible to stack those.
Apparently it works if you play outpost and buy mission on the same turn.

Here, have an idea for free, because I'm in a good mood.

In the setup turns of your opponent, start by buying Messenger, handing out Rocks.
Doesn't work in the mission turn, but should gain you two free Silvers in hand.
Good idea! Unrelated, but it shouldn't be possible to gain more than 5 rocks consecutively right, because there will be catapults?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:08:41 pm by liopoil »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #196 on: June 24, 2016, 05:07:35 pm »
+2

Good idea! Unrelated, but it shouldn't be possible to gain more than 5 rocks consecutively right, because there will be catapults?

1. You need only 4 Rocks on the pile to make this work ?
2. As long as you don't have a reason to block ambassador&moat, you can get that pile in any state you like.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #197 on: June 24, 2016, 05:09:02 pm »
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Actually, hold up. Suppose you buy your opponent a whole bunch of rocks with messenger. Then on their turn they can buy you even more rocks, and it's unbounded. So I don't think that's allowed.

EDIT: Now 10^637, without using Stef's messenger trick yet, but it does work, thanks ephesos.

EDIT: Okay I used the messenger trick, now I have 10^638, wow that was huge.

EDIT: 10^640 with a little optimization. Just 62 orders of magnitude to go!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:53:54 pm by liopoil »
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #198 on: June 24, 2016, 05:25:29 pm »
+4

Actually, hold up. Suppose you buy your opponent a whole bunch of rocks with messenger. Then on their turn they can buy you even more rocks, and it's unbounded. So I don't think that's allowed.

You can only give your opponent Rocks with Messenger once per turn though.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #199 on: June 24, 2016, 05:43:02 pm »
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Actually, hold up. Suppose you buy your opponent a whole bunch of rocks with messenger. Then on their turn they can buy you even more rocks, and it's unbounded. So I don't think that's allowed.

EDIT: Now 10^637, without using Stef's messenger trick yet, but it does work, thanks ephesos.

EDIT: Okay I used the messenger trick, now I have 10^638, wow that was huge.

Hey, if it would have been huge I wouldn't give it to you for free ;)
Here, have another one that sounds cool but does very little:

Instead of putting your Pathfinding/Training/Seaway tokens on your most popular action, include BandOfMisfits and put the tokens on that one.


In the meanwhile, I think it's only one idea that separates us. I have two important idea's that haven't been mentioned in this thread before, and I'm suspecting you have at least one of those two. Currently at
(X,Y) = (10725,10X)
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