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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 93843 times)

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Titandrake

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #150 on: June 23, 2016, 11:12:19 pm »
+1

About 15 years we tried some similar puzzle in the magic universe. We eventually got to numbers with more digits than atoms in the universe. I'm convinced Dominion won't go that high, but so far I'm not surprised by liopoils claim. And back then we also started with a cute day-one with three-digit-solutions.

You may like reading the write-ups at http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #151 on: June 23, 2016, 11:22:37 pm »
+9

use doctor
I assume you mean the overpay? I still don't see what you can get from that.

There are multiple cards (most of them in Dark Ages) which draw you cards when you trash them. Fortress, rats and cultists lead to unbounded solutions, and are therefore off limits.

But we still have Rocks.

We need a Black market deck consisting entirely of copies of doctor. On each golem play, choose Black market and Storeroom. Purchase doctor in Black Market and overpay with everything you have. Trash Rocks equal to the overpay, gaining silvers in hand equal to the overpay. With Storeroom, replace the Silvers with a single Golem and a disgusting number of Banks. Repeat. This basically converts coin into draw every time without using Storyteller. Under this model, it could be useful to play Fortune sooner rather than later, to get the ball rolling faster.

Putting card, coin and buy tokens on the few cards we have wouldn't cause too big a problem.

And a tiny setup idea: We don't need a seperate terminal attack after the Council Rooms to trigger Horse Traders. Just end with a Soothsayer.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #152 on: June 23, 2016, 11:26:06 pm »
0

One final thought: Inheriting Catapult means we can effectively turn the estates we gain at the end into Rocks, and get two Silvers through gaining and trashing.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2016, 12:04:24 am »
+2

Now that's a great idea! I definitely believe that's way better than what we have now. I'll try to calculate an estimate...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:09:35 am by liopoil »
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2016, 12:20:45 am »
0

Now that's a great idea! I definitely believe that's way better than what we have now. I'll try to calculate an estimate...
Need some way to compute max money from number of Treasures played, using Banks, Fortune, etc.
Supposing it's f(x)~O(x^2), then the solution should be something like
g(x)=x+f(x)
max cards: g(g(g(g(g(g(x))))))~O(x^64) edit: math..... powers multiply, not add
because you have 6 actions max(1+Tactician+2 Necropoli+2 from Crossroads)

That definitely gets you into universe size, and maybe up to Stef's level.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:23:53 am by ephesos »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2016, 12:49:23 am »
0

An fairly easy lower bound: 2.4x10^173 gains.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2016, 01:02:09 am »
+1

We can't use tactician. So we have 5 actions (crossroads and two necros). Setup turn is just 5 golems for 10 haunted woods and a save. Opponent plays 16 council rooms over three turns and then soothsayer, so we reveal 22 horse traders. Then we have 75 cards to start, but 22 of them are horse traders, but luckily they are also estates. We play crossroads to draw fortune, golem, and 73 banks. Then we can start with golem into BM and storeroom, and we play 52 harems, 73 banks, and fortune to overpay for doctor and start the cycle. Any ideas to improve this starting handsize?

We then play four more golems, and our last storeroom can draw an obscene number of cards. Those last cards are half banks and half talismen, and we just buy travelling fairs and coppers.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2016, 01:07:15 am »
0

Simple tweak: replace first 6 Banks with Capital. Great idea using Inheritence on Horse Traders for Crossroads!
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2016, 01:10:04 am »
+2

Simple tweak: replace first 6 Banks with Capital. Great idea using Inheritence on Horse Traders for Crossroads!
We have 52 harems so bank is way better.

Actually:

Golem into crossroads and black market --> 3 actions
Golem into storeroom and black market --> 2 actions
Golem into storeroom and black market --> 1 action
Golem into storeroom and necropolis --> 2 actions
Golem into black market and storeroom --> 1 action
Golem into black market and necropolis --> 2 actions
Golem into storeroom and black market --> 1 action
Golem into storeroom and ??? --> buy phase

Here we are getting 6 plays of black market instead of 5 and have an extra action left over to do something with. This should push us up to at least 10^350.

EDIT: I once again have exactly one idea which has not been mentioned yet in the thread...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:34:33 am by liopoil »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #159 on: June 24, 2016, 01:30:07 am »
+3

(X,Y) = (10487,999)
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Chaos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #160 on: June 24, 2016, 02:01:53 am »
+2

I'm a bit of lurker on this forum but I found this puzzle very interesting.

I think you can improve the setup turn:

Golem into necro plus crossroads --> 5 actions
Golem into necro plus hauted woods--> 6 actions
6x golem into double haunted woods

So 13 haunted woods.
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Burning Skull

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #161 on: June 24, 2016, 02:22:15 am »
+1

We can get more CR plays for opponent if we let him have both necros first:

normal turn: 13 CR plays in a fashion like Chaos posted
Mission turn: 12 CR plays and 1 Outpost
Outpost turn: play Crossroads, play two Masks giving the necros away, play Soothsayer

totalling in 25 Council Room plays.

Edit: wait, we still use Golems on Outpost turn so that means 3 more CR = 28.

Second edit: wait, not having necros previous turn = not being able to play as many Haunted Woods = my whole post sucks
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 02:53:51 am by Burning Skull »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #162 on: June 24, 2016, 04:15:12 am »
+2

and... we're back in business :) Great to see such a community effort.
Golem->Black Market->Doctor->Rocks->Storeroom was exactly what I was doing as well.

ok, back to the drawing board...
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #163 on: June 24, 2016, 04:18:32 am »
0

We can't use tactician. So we have 5 actions (crossroads and two necros). Setup turn is just 5 golems for 10 haunted woods and a save. Opponent plays 16 council rooms over three turns and then soothsayer, so we reveal 22 horse traders. Then we have 75 cards to start, but 22 of them are horse traders, but luckily they are also estates. We play crossroads to draw fortune, golem, and 73 banks. Then we can start with golem into BM and storeroom, and we play 52 harems, 73 banks, and fortune to overpay for doctor and start the cycle. Any ideas to improve this starting handsize?

We then play four more golems, and our last storeroom can draw an obscene number of cards. Those last cards are half banks and half talismen, and we just buy travelling fairs and coppers.
The attack needs to be Swindler trashing overgrown estate or Rocks. With soothsayer, we only draw a card after setting aside the Horse Tarders.

I think we can put the +1 card token on something, since we still won't get unbounded hand size increase. Also +1 coin and + 1 buy
Why are we playing Harems? because the initial hand needs to be all VP cards.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:09:39 am by Watno »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #164 on: June 24, 2016, 04:27:00 am »
0

Simple tweak: replace first 6 Banks with Capital. Great idea using Inheritence on Horse Traders for Crossroads!
We have 52 harems so bank is way better.

Actually:

Golem into crossroads and black market --> 3 actions
Golem into storeroom and black market --> 2 actions
Golem into storeroom and black market --> 1 action
Golem into storeroom and necropolis --> 2 actions
Golem into black market and storeroom --> 1 action
Golem into black market and necropolis --> 2 actions
Golem into storeroom and black market --> 1 action
Golem into storeroom and ??? --> buy phase

Here we are getting 6 plays of black market instead of 5 and have an extra action left over to do something with. This should push us up to at least 10^350.

EDIT: I once again have exactly one idea which has not been mentioned yet in the thread...
Are we sure it isn't better to storeroom once before the first BM instead of playing that last action?
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #165 on: June 24, 2016, 05:18:35 am »
0

The setup turn can also be better i think :
Golem->Crossroads, Necro: 5 actions
Golem->Necro, Haunted Woods: 6 actions
6*Golem->12 Haunted woods

That's 13 haunted woods.

Same for our Opponent:
Golem->Crossroads, CR: 3 actions
3*Golem->5 CR+Outpost
buy Mission
Golem->Crossroads, CR: 3 actions
3*Golem->6 CR
Golem->Crossroads, CR: 3 actions
3*Golem->5 CR+Swindler trashing OGE
19 CRs played

We have 5 cards+1 from save+19 from CRs+1 from OGE=23 Horse Traders set aside.
46 cards+13*3=87 initial handsize

(oops, this has already been said)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:32:08 am by Watno »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #166 on: June 24, 2016, 05:41:33 am »
0

Can we do something like this for the oppoenent
Golem->Crossroads, Masquerade (getting necro): 3 actions
Golem->Masquerade (getting Necro), Outpost: 2 actions
play 2 Necros: 4 actions
4*Golem->8 CR
buy Mission
second turn is 13 CRs as in our setup turn.
third turn:
Golem->Crossroads, CR: 3 actions
3*Golem->2 CR, Swindler trashing OGE, masq (giving Necro back),CR,  masq (giving Necro back)
this would be 24 CRs played before the attack, and 2 more handsize increase after that (we don't have anything to pass for the first masquerade

I think the opponent should be able to trash down enough to allow him to have the Necros in hand again on both the second and third turn.

This increases our starting hand by 5 Horse Traders, 2 Necros and 5 other cards to 99 cards (29 of which are Horse traders, and 2 Necros).
Then we should be able to Storeroom away the Necros at appropriate times to still be able to hit them with Golem hopefully (or we need to squeeze in a Ghost ship into the opponent's turn, not sure how to best do this).

(CR=Council room, not Crossroads)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:57:12 am by Watno »
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ghostofmars

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #167 on: June 24, 2016, 05:56:22 am »
0

We don't necessarily need Golem. If you eliminate Golem you still have 6 Black Market plays (Tactician + Necro(2) + Crossroad(2) + 1). You can buy a Doctor to reveal Rats and trash them with Watchtower to draw cards. Then you don't need Storeroom to swap them into useful cards. Because you eliminated Golem, you are also allowed to use cellar to swap cards without using an action.

Menagerie start ~200 cards
Double cards with Crossroads ~400 cards
Black Market with Capital + Banks + Fortune ~ 10^5 coins
Every further play of Black Market doubles the exponent (roughly) so after 5 more plays we end up with 10^( 2^5 * 5 ) ~ 10^160 coins = cards. Split these between banks and talismans to get 10^160 gains per buy and 10^320 buys and you'll end up with ~10^480 gains.

There are a few rounding that happened along the way so the actual number that I calculated is 10^465 gains, still a bit smaller than what liopoil found.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #168 on: June 24, 2016, 06:22:48 am »
0

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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #169 on: June 24, 2016, 06:30:00 am »
0

I also think it's highly likely that there is some way to get unbounded in your list of 200 different cards for Menagerie.
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LaLight

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #170 on: June 24, 2016, 06:37:53 am »
0

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #171 on: June 24, 2016, 07:14:15 am »
0

(X,Y) = (10487,999)

(X,Y) = (10530,10X)
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #172 on: June 24, 2016, 09:02:18 am »
+1

a new idea:

(X,Y) = (10679,10X)
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #173 on: June 24, 2016, 09:30:09 am »
0

We can't use tactician. So we have 5 actions (crossroads and two necros). Setup turn is just 5 golems for 10 haunted woods and a save. Opponent plays 16 council rooms over three turns and then soothsayer, so we reveal 22 horse traders. Then we have 75 cards to start, but 22 of them are horse traders, but luckily they are also estates. We play crossroads to draw fortune, golem, and 73 banks. Then we can start with golem into BM and storeroom, and we play 52 harems, 73 banks, and fortune to overpay for doctor and start the cycle. Any ideas to improve this starting handsize?

We then play four more golems, and our last storeroom can draw an obscene number of cards. Those last cards are half banks and half talismen, and we just buy travelling fairs and coppers.
The attack needs to be Swindler trashing overgrown estate or Rocks. With soothsayer, we only draw a card after setting aside the Horse Tarders.

I think we can put the +1 card token on something, since we still won't get unbounded hand size increase. Also +1 coin and + 1 buy
Why are we playing Harems? because the initial hand needs to be all VP cards.
Does swindler really let us reveal horse traders after it attacks? Also, while we could add the tokens it would barely do anything because we don't actually play very many action cards at all. I suppose a +card on golem would be useful (barely) for an extra card before playing crossroads.

Those initial handsize increases should help a lot, but not sure if it'll get to 679.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:50:08 am by liopoil »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #174 on: June 24, 2016, 09:43:07 am »
0

We can't use tactician. So we have 5 actions (crossroads and two necros). Setup turn is just 5 golems for 10 haunted woods and a save. Opponent plays 16 council rooms over three turns and then soothsayer, so we reveal 22 horse traders. Then we have 75 cards to start, but 22 of them are horse traders, but luckily they are also estates. We play crossroads to draw fortune, golem, and 73 banks. Then we can start with golem into BM and storeroom, and we play 52 harems, 73 banks, and fortune to overpay for doctor and start the cycle. Any ideas to improve this starting handsize?

We then play four more golems, and our last storeroom can draw an obscene number of cards. Those last cards are half banks and half talismen, and we just buy travelling fairs and coppers.
The attack needs to be Swindler trashing overgrown estate or Rocks. With soothsayer, we only draw a card after setting aside the Horse Tarders.

I think we can put the +1 card token on something, since we still won't get unbounded hand size increase. Also +1 coin and + 1 buy
Why are we playing Harems? because the initial hand needs to be all VP cards.
Does swindler really let us reveal horse traders after it attacks?
It doesn't help, somehow i thought the OGE would draw before Swindler resolves as well, but of course it doesn't.
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