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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 93817 times)

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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2016, 11:51:18 am »
0

Also you cant have Guide if you have Golem.

You're right :(

-5 starting cards

ending hand size drops to 1403468

If there is another way have the opponent draw us cards... (If Crossroads is the only draw) then maybe we can add Tactician back which helps.  Adding more actions to the payload turn is the best way to increase handsize (as shown by the somewhat minor effect dropping the starting hand had on this.)

Edit: Swindling Overgrown Estate brought that to mind, which I also realize gets me 1 starting card back from losing Guide: 1419852

This still seems not quite as good as using Scout...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 11:53:29 am by Deadlock39 »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #126 on: June 23, 2016, 12:00:29 pm »
+1

Yeah, this stuff isn't large-scale enough. Let's ditch scout for now. Probably golem too. stef didn't use those.

Is there a way to get a starting handsize with at least four digits? I'm thinking no.

Then, is there a way to multiply the starting handsize by significantly more than 5^7? Maybe.

Is there a way to get more than O(n^3) coins/gains from n cards? Maybe.

Those last two are the ones we should work on. Specifically, there is probably a way to get more coins than bank.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #127 on: June 23, 2016, 12:10:40 pm »
+7

golem + tactician + council room lets us play multiple tacticians, leading to more actions the next turn and letting us get arbitrarily large handisizes. I thought of golem, but we have to drop tactician for it.

Boo, I thought I was actually getting somewhere by doing exactly this (Golem into Tactician+Wharf), but totally spaced that getting more actions on the next turn could compound in a limitless way. 

Losing Tactician hurts the payload turn quite a bit. With just Haunted Woods for setup, and 1 less action on that turn, I am ending up with 1649228 cards in hand at the end.  I'm not sure that is doing better than Scout did.  Didn't you have a 7 digit handsize there?

Don't be sad, golem is great. It increased my solution with almost 100 digits. Now at
644503462064339691320893988101397183386916627871658730731090840701592208350494927857604712534214146747656606291383195334413968884723506307376928010976060955365409470217364268534760821127116356396275266530923739838989156691286369712695731456473173007335036637008350123620


Happy hunting :)
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #128 on: June 23, 2016, 12:11:38 pm »
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More small scale, but it's all I've got for now.  Removing Council Room only lets us set aside 7 Horse Traders, but lets us bring back Tactician. (This might be bad because we can't buy Hunting Grounds, and Death Cart is already out, and Cache can't be cost reduced with Quarry... I don't know)

Getting Tactician gives an action back, which bumps Crossroads plays up to 16. I got a handsize of 3910220 doing that. (but 2^16 still falls slightly short of 5^7)

liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #129 on: June 23, 2016, 12:13:26 pm »
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Confirmed that stef only uses terminals...

ooo, we can use crown now, right? That should be helpful. I don't think its throne room ability ruins anything? In fact it is extremely helpful?

Yes, we should be using crown.

Or, hmm, I think a crown-crossroads chain could lead to unbounded draw, so nvm :(
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #130 on: June 23, 2016, 12:13:31 pm »
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Don't be sad, golem is great. It increased my solution with almost 100 digits. Now at

Lol... happy to be of service. I look forward to seeing this thing once the competition is over.

liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #131 on: June 23, 2016, 12:21:45 pm »
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Don't be sad, golem is great. It increased my solution with almost 100 digits. Now at

Lol... happy to be of service. I look forward to seeing this thing once the competition is over.
We have 35 hours to get to 10^100, then a bit longer to get to 10^200. I think we can do it!

Now convinced it's a better way to use the cards we draw. Fortune is only once per turn. What generates more coins than bank?
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #132 on: June 23, 2016, 12:23:56 pm »
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Don't be sad, golem is great. It increased my solution with almost 100 digits. Now at

Lol... happy to be of service. I look forward to seeing this thing once the competition is over.
We have 35 hours to get to 10^100, then a bit longer to get to 10^200. I think we can do it!

Now convinced it's a better way to use the cards we draw. Fortune is only once per turn. What generates more coins than bank?

I can only think if really minor things like Counterfeiting the last Bank gives 1 more coin and a buy.

That and things that go infinite like Venture.  IGG was mentioned, but the effect would have to be minimal there if it even gives anything.

liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #133 on: June 23, 2016, 12:29:12 pm »
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Maybe something can be done with a black market play?
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #134 on: June 23, 2016, 12:40:57 pm »
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Can we set up the Black market so we can only get a finite amount of Villas? If there are 13 different cards in the black market, each villa allows us to play 2 Golems=4 black Markets, so it allows us to dig 12 cards deep into the BM pile. This should mean we can repeat this at most 13 times, doesn't it?
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2016, 12:45:23 pm »
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Can we set up the Black market so we can only get a finite amount of Villas? If there are 13 different cards in the black market, each villa allows us to play 2 Golems=4 black Markets, so it allows us to dig 12 cards deep into the BM pile. This should mean we can repeat this at most 13 times, doesn't it?
But villa gives two actions and we can stockpile them beforehand.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2016, 12:53:18 pm »
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Can we set up the Black market so we can only get a finite amount of Villas? If there are 13 different cards in the black market, each villa allows us to play 2 Golems=4 black Markets, so it allows us to dig 12 cards deep into the BM pile. This should mean we can repeat this at most 13 times, doesn't it?
But villa gives two actions and we can stockpile them beforehand.

Should I make a ruling about this? Liopoils point is valid so you can't use villa, but in my mind this trick was entirely impossible. Must admit the rules aren't super clear.
Anyway:

You get to specify which cards go in the black market deck, but the person trying to spoil your solution gets to shuffle it any way he likes before the game starts.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2016, 01:02:14 pm »
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Can we set up the Black market so we can only get a finite amount of Villas? If there are 13 different cards in the black market, each villa allows us to play 2 Golems=4 black Markets, so it allows us to dig 12 cards deep into the BM pile. This should mean we can repeat this at most 13 times, doesn't it?
But villa gives two actions and we can stockpile them beforehand.

Should I make a ruling about this? Liopoils point is valid so you can't use villa, but in my mind this trick was entirely impossible. Must admit the rules aren't super clear.
Anyway:

You get to specify which cards go in the black market deck, but the person trying to spoil your solution gets to shuffle it any way he likes before the game starts.
Do they shuffle it before or after you stack infinitely many of them? Are the decks shuffled independently?

I think it should be legal. In theory you can do something analogous with the knights or castles pile.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2016, 01:23:17 pm »
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Can we set up the Black market so we can only get a finite amount of Villas? If there are 13 different cards in the black market, each villa allows us to play 2 Golems=4 black Markets, so it allows us to dig 12 cards deep into the BM pile. This should mean we can repeat this at most 13 times, doesn't it?
But villa gives two actions and we can stockpile them beforehand.

Should I make a ruling about this? Liopoils point is valid so you can't use villa, but in my mind this trick was entirely impossible. Must admit the rules aren't super clear.
Anyway:

You get to specify which cards go in the black market deck, but the person trying to spoil your solution gets to shuffle it any way he likes before the game starts.

I don't see a problem either.
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #139 on: June 23, 2016, 01:31:23 pm »
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It seems impossible to take advantage of to me.  Having a limit on the number of something that you can gain mid-turn while being able to have an unlimited number of them already seems not helpful.

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #140 on: June 23, 2016, 06:16:04 pm »
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For those of you who thought that 270 digits would be unbeatable I have good news: you can get to at least that times the number of atoms in the known universe.


man, this puzzle is sick :P
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #141 on: June 23, 2016, 06:18:10 pm »
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So, 10^350?

Want to give any clues? I went through the full list of dominion cards...
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #142 on: June 23, 2016, 06:18:50 pm »
+1

Want to give any clues? I went through the full list of dominion cards...

I just did.
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gkrieg13

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2016, 06:28:16 pm »
+1

use doctor
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2016, 06:36:42 pm »
+4

So, 10^350?

whoopsie, add another 100+

22186167940820749635721732196794612861528071563046601133333781854350832239742460929456023924680697208178471097944950275135628345387678500185350617320633146473875542794856037478750344528062104016649754082809246257225393532306899307046807471628514607723323256341983808942875162182182088355288888482261713973703801786770887081960196650816387647896726990511973139259867300464091082711887798557734814858785698622303384596952968183755310828103806356548518559464396982685761560
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2016, 06:38:40 pm »
+2

I thought of this yesterday evening, but it unfortunately doesn't use golem. That means it can't be Stef's solution. however, it is a major improvement on the Scout-Crossroads draw we were using previously.

Cellar and Counting House. The procedure is straightforward: Discard a hand of X coppers with cellar, and draw a hand of X-1 coppers with cellar. Continue doing this until you reach a hand of Counting house and Cellar. Draw coppers with counting house, repeat. The growth on each cycle of this is approximately (X squared) / 2. The addition of cellar or counting house unfortunately prevents the use of Golem or Scout, and is therefore certainly different from Stef's solution, but nontheless struck me as a better model than the Crossroads one we were using previously.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2016, 06:41:58 pm »
+4

I thought of this yesterday evening, but it unfortunately doesn't use golem. That means it can't be Stef's solution. however, it is a major improvement on the Scout-Crossroads draw we were using previously.

Cellar and Counting House. The procedure is straightforward: Discard a hand of X coppers with cellar, and draw a hand of X-1 coppers with cellar. Continue doing this until you reach a hand of Counting house and Cellar. Draw coppers with counting house, repeat. The growth on each cycle of this is approximately (X squared) / 2. The addition of cellar or counting house unfortunately prevents the use of Golem or Scout, and is therefore certainly different from Stef's solution, but nontheless struck me as a better model than the Crossroads one we were using previously.

You can start your turn with an arbitrary large number of coppers in your discard, so I don't think you can use Counting House in any useful way. At least if you do you can't have anything that translates handsize or coins into gains.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2016, 06:44:42 pm »
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Dang. I bet everyone else had already thought of that. Back to the drawing board!
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #148 on: June 23, 2016, 07:12:12 pm »
+2

An exhaustive list of all dominion cards which can add a variable number of cards to your hand which isn't obviously bounded:

counting house
madman
storeroom
cellar
cultist
scrying pool
storyteller
native village
city quarter
crossroads

An exhaustive list of all dominion cards which can generate a variable number of coins which isn't obviously bounded:

philosopher's stone
pirate ship
secret chamber
vault
venture
bank
storeroom
soldier
fortune
opulent castle
diadem

I'm not seeing how any of these can be used effectively while keeping coin generation bounded.

EDIT: okay, not literally exhaustive; I didn't define what makes it onto the list very well. But I put down everything which seemed plausibly relevant, and none of them work.

Lots of ways to get coins by discarding cards, but the only ways to draw things back don't stay bounded.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:18:44 pm by liopoil »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #149 on: June 23, 2016, 07:20:32 pm »
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Want to give any clues? I went through the full list of dominion cards...

I just did.
What?

use doctor
I assume you mean the overpay? I still don't see what you can get from that.
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