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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 93819 times)

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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2016, 07:54:48 am »
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Well, I'm not even winning anymore, so maybe if I reveal my solution we can work together to beat stef.

Dang, now I don't know how to respond. On one hand this seems like the best strategy, because a collective can achieve so much more by working together.
On the other hand, I can now just see what you're doing and use all your tricks as well. Should I post my temporary solution?

Anyway, I added another 30-ish digits, now at 116165114499503764718033856255079030270920004267173727491432301641093449874974422531169444876036782864071616563892742971866741.
It was't your scout-trick though, the main difference is some better execution and the increased starting hand with Horse Traders.
Using Scout would make my main trick impossible, and handsize*4 a couple of times doesn't make up for it.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2016, 09:17:46 am »
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So you are getting a lot bigger handsize?
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2016, 10:18:07 am »
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Okay, so I came up with another idea, but my estimation looks like it is coming up with a smaller handsize than what liopoil is getting so far, so it might not be useful.

I was looking through the card list and found Golem. The friendly splitter that can't split itself.  There are some problems. We can't have any non-terminals, because then he becomes a Village. This means, no Scout, no Highway, no Cellar.

With Council Room + Horse Trader tricks, I am finding a max handsize of 51 to start the turn. We have to use up our extra Tactician action to Storeroom away the Horse Traders (because Cellar is out). Now you can Golem into Crossroadsx2 three times, then Crossroads+Necro, Crossroadsx2, Crossroads+Necro, Crossroadsx2 twice.

That gets me to 797260 cards in hand (half Harem).  As mentioned, this is lower than the currently discussed solution, so it is no good, but maybe there is something of use here. The lack of cost reduction could hurt this too. (Edit: Can use Quarry for cost reduction, so this one is probably okay)

I'm not sure where we are at on the thing we are buying, and this is only a minor improvement in the grand scheme of things, but I think we can Inherit Death Cart to gain 2 Ruins for every Estate that we gain from trashing Hunting Grounds.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 10:20:06 am by Deadlock39 »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2016, 10:25:04 am »
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Shouldn't the starting handsize be way higher than that, since both we and the opponent can Golem on the Setup turn? I think the best thing to Inherit is Horse Traders, since if we can't use Cellar, it's to costly to replace the Horse Traders in our starting hand, and we don't really need to do it if they're VP cards.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2016, 10:26:25 am »
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be careful with golem + ruined village


Edit: whowa golem is a great suggestion. I'll have to puzzle a lot on that. But keep in mind that it also does require removing tactician.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 10:34:38 am by -Stef- »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2016, 10:27:52 am »
+5

oh, and just to lift your spirits, I added another 50 digits to my solution :)
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2016, 10:31:22 am »
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Shouldn't the starting handsize be way higher than that, since both we and the opponent can Golem on the Setup turn? I think the best thing to Inherit is Horse Traders, since if we can't use Cellar, it's to costly to replace the Horse Traders in our starting hand, and we don't really need to do it if they're VP cards.

You are definitely right about the setup turn... I didn't think to rework those.  Being able to Golem into more Haunted Woods and more Council Rooms for the opponent is great.  That will increase the starting hand above where liopoil is now for sure, but it doesn't seem like it will reach the numbers Stef has posted.

My gut says you are probably right about the HT Inheritance because each action gets us ~4x the handsize now. as compared to getting 2.5x more gains in the end.  It does give us less treasures in play, but the magnitude of that probably doesn't matter.

...and as Stef has pointed out, Deathcart is banned when using Golem because it brings a non-terminal Ruin with it.

liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2016, 10:33:00 am »
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golem + tactician + council room lets us play multiple tacticians, leading to more actions the next turn and letting us get arbitrarily large handisizes. I thought of golem, but we have to drop tactician for it.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2016, 10:34:10 am »
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Our Setup turn plays 6 Golems->11 Haunted Woods and 1 tactician.
If Golem has the +Coin token, the opponent can have 3 setup turns with 4 actions each
first 2 setup turns play 4 Golems->7 CR+1 Tact, last is 7CR+1 Swindler, trashing our overgrown Estate
So we have 5+22 estates inheriting horse traders in hand, giving us 54 cards before we draw another 38 from our Haunted Woods and Tactician.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 10:36:24 am by Watno »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2016, 10:35:06 am »
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We'll use feodum+watchtower for all of our gaining needs. No issues there with inheritance or ruins.

Looks like scout is going to have to go  :'(
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 10:36:16 am by liopoil »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2016, 10:36:15 am »
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But then Feodum costs 4? I think we can't do Cost reduction and just gain coppers, with all the Talismans, it deosn't matter anyway.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2016, 10:40:47 am »
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Our Setup turn plays 6 Golems->12 Haunted Woods, Opponent's 3 setup turns play 3 Golems->6+6+5 Concil Rooms+1 Swindler Trashing overgrown estate.
23 Horse Traders get set aside, so we have 46 cards before drawing another 36 for a total of 82 (23 of which are Horse Traders/Estates)
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2016, 10:41:35 am »
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But then Feodum costs 4? I think we can't do Cost reduction and just gain coppers, with all the Talismans, it deosn't matter anyway.
Oops, talisman doesn't work on victory cards. But using hunting grounds instead of copper quadruples our gains. So unless there's a big innovation it's not worth it.

Keep in mind that linear increase in starting hand only results in linear increase in final handsize, which is currently O(n^3) in gains.

So if we ise golem and drop tactician and scout, we still only get 14 plays of crossroads, and 2^14 < 5^7 which is what we currently have with scout. The increase in initial handsize isn't worth it.

I think stef has found a way to get more coins than just banks.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2016, 10:46:14 am »
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It does hardly matter what we buy, for each buy we get 1+#talismans+c gains, where c is some constant that is at most 43 i think. The gains from DeathCart/Hunting Grounds/whatever aren't multiplied by talisman.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2016, 10:48:18 am »
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Maybe we should put in some IGGs to get more treasures into play for the Banks?  don't think that does much though.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2016, 10:54:21 am »
+1

Anyway, I added another 30-ish digits, now at 116165114499503764718033856255079030270920004267173727491432301641093449874974422531169444876036782864071616563892742971866741.
It was't your scout-trick though, the main difference is some better execution and the increased starting hand with Horse Traders.

This makes me believe the starting hand size is more than a linear factor in Stef's solution.

Also, I'm really confused that the number is odd, so apparently the last Treasure played isn't a Fortune.
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Seprix

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2016, 11:00:32 am »
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Quote
However, there is a restriction. In order for your solution to be valid some number Y has to exist (which is bigger than X, you can choose whatever you like) that is impossible to reach using your kingdom. So you claim "Y cannot be reached using my cards" and then someone else gets to use your kingdom, uses perfect shuffle luck and all the time in the world to set up his magic turn, and still cannot reach your number Y.

I assume this exists so that you can't spam a hand of just one Rats and no other cards in hand or the deck forever.

Quote
116165114499503764718033856255079030270920004267173727491432301641093449874974422531169444876036782864071616563892742971866741.

...Yeah, I don't think I could do anything better than this.
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Burning Skull

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #117 on: June 23, 2016, 11:01:36 am »
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Since the number of differently named cards is rather big but still limited Menageries can be used to increase the handsize in the beginning of the turn.

liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #118 on: June 23, 2016, 11:11:00 am »
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It does hardly matter what we buy, for each buy we get 1+#talismans+c gains, where c is some constant that is at most 43 i think. The gains from DeathCart/Hunting Grounds/whatever aren't multiplied by talisman.
Yes they are. We gain more HG/Deathcarts each of which gain estates/ruins. In my solution I have 999999 talismen and play and am gaining 4000000 cards per buy.
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ghostofmars

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #119 on: June 23, 2016, 11:14:37 am »
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I also had the idea to use Menageries to start your hand. If I'm not mistaken, there are 195 different cards that are compatible with the puzzle, i.e., don't lead to infinite solutions.


Start with a hand of Menagerie + X and continue playing and drawing Menageries until one copy of every card that does not lead to infinite solutions is in hand. Then play a cellar discarding all unneeded cards and replace them with crossroads, scouts, or whatever you need to start off.

copper
silver
gold
platinum
potion
estate
duchy
province
colony
curse
hovel
necropolis
overgrown estate
cellar
chapel
moat
chancellor
woodcutter
workshop
bureaucrat
feast
gardens
militia
moneylender
remodel
smithy
spy
thief
council room
library
mine
witch
adventurer
courtyard
pawn
secret chamber
masquerade
steward
swindler
baron
bridge
coppersmith
scout
duke
saboteur
torturer
trading post
harem
lighthouse
pearl diver
ambassador
lookout
smugglers
warehouse
cutpurse
island
navigator
pirate ship
salvager
sea hag
treasure map
explorer
ghost ship
merchant ship
outpost
tactician
wharf
transmute
vineyard
herbalist
familiar
loan
trade route
watchtower
bishop
monument
quarry
talisman
contraband
mint
mountebank
rabble
royal seal
vault
goons
hoard
bank
expand
forge
fortune teller
menagerie
horse traders
remake
young witch
harvest
horn of plenty
jester
fairgrounds
crossroads
duchess
fools gold
develop
oasis
oracle
scheme
jack of all trades
noble brigand
nomad camp
silk road
spice merchant
trader
cache
cartographer
embassy
haggler
highway
ill gotten gains
mandarin
margrave
farmland
abandoned mine
ruined library
ruined market
ruined village
survivors
spoils
mercenary
poor house
beggar
forager
sage
storeroom
urchin
mercenary
armory
death cart
feodum
marauder
rats
scavenger
bands of misfits
catacombs
count
counterfeit
graverobber
junk dealer
pillage
altar
hunting grounds
stonemason
doctor
masterpiece
taxman
journeyman
soothsayer
ratcatcher
raze
amulet
dungeon
gear
guide
messanger
ranger
bridge troll
distant lands
giant
haunted woods
relic
swamp hag
wine merchant
engineer
overlord
royal blacksmith
catapult
rocks
chariot race
enchantress
farmers market
gladiator
fortune
temple
capital
charm
forum
groundskeeper
legionary
wild hunt
Humble Castle
Crumbling Castle
Small Castle
Haunted Castle
Opulent Castle
Sprawling Castle
Grand Castle
King's Castle
black market
envoy
stash
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #120 on: June 23, 2016, 11:21:25 am »
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golem + tactician + council room lets us play multiple tacticians, leading to more actions the next turn and letting us get arbitrarily large handisizes. I thought of golem, but we have to drop tactician for it.

Boo, I thought I was actually getting somewhere by doing exactly this (Golem into Tactician+Wharf), but totally spaced that getting more actions on the next turn could compound in a limitless way. 

Losing Tactician hurts the payload turn quite a bit. With just Haunted Woods for setup, and 1 less action on that turn, I am ending up with 1649228 cards in hand at the end.  I'm not sure that is doing better than Scout did.  Didn't you have a 7 digit handsize there?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 11:31:03 am by Deadlock39 »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #121 on: June 23, 2016, 11:31:01 am »
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golem + tactician + council room lets us play multiple tacticians, leading to more actions the next turn and letting us get arbitrarily large handisizes. I thought of golem, but we have to drop tactician for it.

Boo, I thought I was actually getting somewhere by doing exactly this (Golem into Tactician+Wharf), but totally spaced that getting more actions on the next turn could compound in a limitless way. 

Losing Tactician hurts the payload turn quite a bit. With just Haunted Woods for setup, and 1 less action on that turn, I am ending up with 1649228 cards in hand at the end.  I'm not sure that is doing better than Scout did.  Didn't you have a 7 digit handsize there.
Woah, how did you manage 7 digits without scout?
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #122 on: June 23, 2016, 11:36:18 am »
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It does hardly matter what we buy, for each buy we get 1+#talismans+c gains, where c is some constant that is at most 43 i think. The gains from DeathCart/Hunting Grounds/whatever aren't multiplied by talisman.
Yes they are. We gain more HG/Deathcarts each of which gain estates/ruins. In my solution I have 999999 talismen and play and am gaining 4000000 cards per buy.

Oh right.

Regarding menagerie: We can't use Cellar if we have Scout.
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2016, 11:37:40 am »
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golem + tactician + council room lets us play multiple tacticians, leading to more actions the next turn and letting us get arbitrarily large handisizes. I thought of golem, but we have to drop tactician for it.

Boo, I thought I was actually getting somewhere by doing exactly this (Golem into Tactician+Wharf), but totally spaced that getting more actions on the next turn could compound in a limitless way. 

Losing Tactician hurts the payload turn quite a bit. With just Haunted Woods for setup, and 1 less action on that turn, I am ending up with 1649228 cards in hand at the end.  I'm not sure that is doing better than Scout did.  Didn't you have a 7 digit handsize there.
Woah, how did you manage 7 digits without scout?

Setup turn you play 15 Haunted Woods.
Opponent plays 21 Council Rooms, and a Terminal attack

Set aside 26 HT
Call Guide (5)
return HT and draw (57)
draw 45 cards from HW (102)
Then do the Golem into Crossroads thing for 14 Crossroads plays

(It is possible I messed something up here...)

Edit: I did mess something up. My sheet is still giving a Tactician action at the start of the setup turns.

Edit2: 13 HW plays and 19 Council Rooms from the opponent still has 7 digits: 1485388
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 11:46:53 am by Deadlock39 »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2016, 11:47:25 am »
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Also you cant have Guide if you have Golem.
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