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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 73592 times)

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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2016, 08:32:25 pm »
0

You can use Mission and Outpost though, to make them have 3 turns before it's yours again.
So that lets them play 9 Council rooms, urchin, Council Room, giving us 14 Horse Traders to set aside. Then we have 29 cards(14 of which are Horse Traders) + 20 from haunted Wood+tactician.
So 48 cards after cellaring the Horse traders.
I don't think that you can use outpost and mission. Mission specifies the previous turn not being yours and outpost can't let you take more than two consecutive turns. What happens if they play outpost and buy mission in the same turn?

I suppose we can't use outpost/mission ourselves right, since that would count as a separate turn?

You can, from the Wiki:
Quote
If you buy a Mission and play an Outpost on the same turn, both extra turn effects try to happen at the same time. If you resolve Mission's first, your Mission turn will start with 3 cards, and you won't get an Outpost turn (and Outpost stays in play until the Clean-up phase of the player to your left). If you resolve Outpost first, you get the normal 3-card Outpost turn, then your Mission turn, giving you three turns in a row.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2016, 08:37:03 pm »
0

I'm currently sitting at 265843082805650 coins. I guess I could use them to overpay for Masterpiece, but there has to be something more advanced.
Also there might be a mistake, but I don't think so. Anyway, time to sleep :)

liopoil was getting 1.5 cards per $1 with Highway+Death Cart+Travelling Fair.

But here's an improvement: 3 cards per $1 via Doctor+Hunting Grounds.
9 cards for $1 provided you have a Watchtower in hand: Play 5 Highways, spend every $ overpaying 1 for Stonemason, gaining 2 Hunting Grounds, and trashing each of them for 3 estates.
11 gains for $1 with watchtower in hand: Play 4 highways, spend every $ overpaying 1 for Stonemason, gain 2 Catacombs, trash them for 2 ferried Hunting grounds, trash these for 6 estates
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2016, 08:38:19 pm »
+1

I'm currently sitting at 265843082805650 coins. I guess I could use them to overpay for Masterpiece, but there has to be something more advanced.
Also there might be a mistake, but I don't think so. Anyway, time to sleep :)

liopoil was getting 1.5 cards per $1 with Highway+Death Cart+Travelling Fair.

But here's an improvement: 3 cards per $1 via Doctor+Hunting Grounds.
9 cards for $1 provided you have a Watchtower in hand: Play 5 Highways, spend every $ overpaying 1 for Stonemason, gaining 2 Hunting Grounds, and trashing each of them for 3 estates.
But you can't use talisman for this, so I think death cart still is best. I'm currently trying to figure out the best way to balance talismen with banks...

EDIT: Actually, just trashing free hunting grounds with watchtower is best, since that works with talisman.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:39:50 pm by liopoil »
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2016, 08:39:49 pm »
0

I'm currently sitting at 265843082805650 coins. I guess I could use them to overpay for Masterpiece, but there has to be something more advanced.
Also there might be a mistake, but I don't think so. Anyway, time to sleep :)

liopoil was getting 1.5 cards per $1 with Highway+Death Cart+Travelling Fair.

But here's an improvement: 3 cards per $1 via Doctor+Hunting Grounds.
9 cards for $1 provided you have a Watchtower in hand: Play 5 Highways, spend every $ overpaying 1 for Stonemason, gaining 2 Hunting Grounds, and trashing each of them for 3 estates.

You'd need Travelling Fair for that though?

And oh, I guess this and overpay tricks won't win once Talisman is factored in?  Seems likely, though I'm not sure because Talisman might drastically reduce the max coin as well.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2016, 08:50:21 pm »
+3

We want to find the point where a talisman play is as valuable as a bank play. Banks are more valuable the more talismen are in play and talismen are more valuable the more coins you have, so there should be a balance point. Suppose coins and buys are interchangeable. Then each bank contributes buys on the order of how many cards are in your hand. So if you have n cards and t talismen, a bank is worth roughly n*t gains. A talisman is worth one gain for every buy, and there is roughly a buy for every coin. So a talisman is worth roughly n*b, where b is the number of banks.

Therefore I think we want about the same number of banks as talismen? And that this is way way better than all banks or all talismen?

EDIT: Yeah. The total value from banks is bnt and the total value from talismen is tnb, so we are getting around 2bnt total gains. Since n is constant and b + t ~ n, we definitely want b ~ t, and this should result in O(n^3) gains.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:54:52 pm by liopoil »
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2016, 09:02:59 pm »
+5

...and this should result in O(n^3) gains.

nope, not sleeping, I'm currently at 26247947549846681740155978489132936614812436891329462040272643457209803707073094981329951743596 coins. So that would mean uh... a lot of gains :)

And that number of atoms in the universe is certainly going out of the window. But a number with more digits than atoms in the universe? not so sure yet.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2016, 09:03:48 pm »
0

note that watchtower+hunting grounds stops us from using inheritance since that would allow inheriting hunting grounds for infinite estate gaining. We can use feodum instead though
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2016, 09:07:34 pm »
+1

...and this should result in O(n^3) gains.

nope, not sleeping, I'm currently at 26247947549846681740155978489132936614812436891329462040272643457209803707073094981329951743596 coins. So that would mean uh... a lot of gains :)

And that number of atoms in the universe is certainly going out of the window. But a number with more digits than atoms in the universe? not so sure yet.
Why are you going for coins rather than gains? Are you not using talismen? Are getting more coins than the number of cards you draw cubed? I haven't bothered to count your number, but it's more than 20, which is around the best-case scenario for me. EDIT: It's 94 digits, so listen up atoms in the universe, you each need to comprise trillions of cards... each.

A number with more digits than atoms in the universe would require a tetration sort of operation, which I have not seen in dominion.

note that watchtower+hunting grounds stops us from using inheritance since that would allow inheriting hunting grounds for infinite estate gaining. We can use feodum instead though
What was inheritance for?

Unrelated: I think that we don't want a giant counterfeit chain for the banks? Because even though the early banks would get a boost from more counterfeits in play, the later banks would suffer from trashed banks and counterfeits.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:12:56 pm by liopoil »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2016, 09:29:48 pm »
+1

Okay, I finally finished calculating it all. I can get 9109511287936000000 gains total, and that's without too much optimization. Optimizing and starting with 40+ cards in hand rather than 29 should add a couple digits. Right now it is 18 (almost 19) digits long. Clearly Stef has found something I haven't.

EDIT: going back to the maximum starting handsize, could we call guide at the start of our turn, since we have at most one card in our hand (after setting aside horse traders)?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:45:59 pm by liopoil »
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2016, 10:00:23 pm »
0

Are you using Cellar to swap Horse Traders out for Victory cards? I'm still not sure how you are getting so many more cards than the process Watno posted.

Nevermind, Watno posted that when he first mentioned it.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:02:28 pm by Deadlock39 »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2016, 10:07:03 pm »
0

Are you using Cellar to swap Horse Traders out for Victory cards? I'm still not sure how you are getting so many more cards than the process Watno posted.

Nevermind, Watno posted that when he first mentioned it.
I'm actually still using just a 29 card starting hand. Using a 40+ card starting hand would probably just about double my gains.

Right now I'm trying to think about if there is something I can inherit that is better than harem. It needs to be non-terminal but also can't draw cards.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2016, 10:16:58 pm »
+16

Well, I'm not even winning anymore, so maybe if I reveal my solution we can work together to beat stef. The key card is... SCOUT! That's right, Roadrunner. Here you go:

Kingdom: Haunted Woods, Tactician, Counterfeit, Bank, Fortune, Talisman, Highway, Watchtower, Hunting Grounds, Crossroads, Scout, Harem, Masquerade, Council Room, Shelters, Traveling Fair

Start the turn before with a tactician in play. Play Crossroads, 2 Necros, 5 Haunted Woods, and Tactician. Shuffle. Have your opponent’s necropolis via masquerade. Opponent has Tactician in play, plays crossroads and four council rooms, we draw four. Our real turn:

Start with 29 in hand. Play 6 highways.

Play 28 scouts, drawing 112 victory cards.
Play crossroads, drawing 111 scouts and a crossroads
Play 111 scouts, drawing 444 victory cards
Play crossroads, drawing 555 scouts and a crossroads
Play 555 scouts, drawing 2220 victory cards
Play crossroads, drawing 2775 scouts and a crossroads
Play 2775 scouts, drawing 11100 victory cards
Play crossroads, drawing 13874 scouts, a necropolis, and a crossroads
Play 13874 scouts, drawing 55496 victory cards and play necropolis
Play crossroads, drawing 69370 scouts, a necropolis, and a crossroads
Play 69370 scouts, drawing 277488 victory cards, and play necropolis
Play crossroads, drawing 346859 scouts and a crossroads
Play 346859 scouts, drawing 1387436 victory cards
Play crossroads, drawing 1734296 treasure cards

Now it's the buy phase with 3468592 cards in hand, split evenly between victories and treasures. Luckily, all of the victory cards are Harem, so play them all for 3468592 coins.

Now play 999999 Talismen for as many coins.
Now play 734295 banks. We started with 2734295 treasures in play, so we get coins from banks equal to 734295*2734295 + 734295*734294/2 = 2277373353390.
We have  2277377821981 total coins. I still have two cards left in hand though, and they are fortune and watchtower. I double my coins with fortune. Then I buy 2277377821981 travelling fairs. I also have an original buy, a buy from fortune, and a buy from tactician for 2277377821984 total buys. Hunting Grounds are free, so get a ton of them, and trash each with watchtower for 3 estates. Four cards are gained each time and a million copies are gained each time, for a total of 9109511287936000000 gains.

Scout allows me to roughly quintuple my hand size with each crossroads instead of double. It only works because scout is only capable of drawing cards that don't draw more cards, which is what bounds it. The ideas to improve that I have right now are:

- Make opponent play urchin and use outpost/mission to get a larger starting hand. This currently can't even get to 50 cards in hand and so wouldn't make a huge difference.
-Adjust the talisman/bank numbers to be more optimal, probably should be playing some counterfeits too

That might get it over 10^20, but certainly not over 10^25, and we need to be closer to 10^100 to beat stef.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:23:12 pm by liopoil »
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2016, 11:44:09 pm »
0

In case you want to use piles that aren't all the same card (like ruins, or Catapult/Rocks, or knights, or...) use the regular rules to generate a pile, then use multiple copies of the entire pile.
This applies to all the piles, even the ones that usually have a unique feel like prizes or black market cards.

So essentially, given long enough, I can set up a turn with an arbitrarily large kingdom(i.e. arbitrarily many different named cards), so long as my solution doesn't rely on the cards I'm playing being in the Supply?

i.e. I play Black Market, buying Scout
(I play Black Market many times over many turns)
I play Black Market, buying Scout...

So no point in even limiting kingdom to 10, just say Kingdom: Black Market and 9 other irrelevant cards, Black Market deck: Haunted Woods, Tactician, .....

That said, take Liopoil's solution, add in Horse Traders and Cellar, and start the turn with twice as many cards. Factor of two isn't much when we're dealing with orders of magnitude, but any little bit helps.

EDIT: And if we're on the topic of tiny irrelevant savings, add Save to the kingdom to get that one extra starting card.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 11:51:10 pm by ephesos »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2016, 11:47:50 pm »
0

In case you want to use piles that aren't all the same card (like ruins, or Catapult/Rocks, or knights, or...) use the regular rules to generate a pile, then use multiple copies of the entire pile.
This applies to all the piles, even the ones that usually have a unique feel like prizes or black market cards.

So essentially, given long enough, I can set up a turn with an arbitrarily large kingdom(i.e. arbitrarily many different named cards), so long as my solution doesn't rely on the cards I'm playing being in the Supply?

i.e. I play Black Market, buying Scout
(I play Black Market many times over many turns)
I play Black Market, buying Scout...

So no point in even limiting kingdom to 10, just say Kingdom: Black Market and 9 other irrelevant cards, Black Market deck: Haunted Woods, Tactician, .....

That said, take Liopoil's solution, add in Horse Traders and Cellar, and start the turn with twice as many cards. Factor of two isn't much when we're dealing with orders of magnitude, but any little bit helps.
It already isn't limited to 10. And it actually probably ends up being more like a full order of magnitude extra to do that, but I don't feel like recalculating it so I'll wait until there's some other new innovation.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2016, 12:00:32 am »
0

So no point in even limiting kingdom to 10, just say Kingdom: Black Market and 9 other irrelevant cards, Black Market deck: Haunted Woods, Tactician, .....
It already isn't limited to 10.
Hmmm, wow, I really need to learn to read the whole problem....

Anyway, might still be sometimes useful to have cards outside the Supply e.g. if you want to Inherit something specific, but can't Inherit something else because it would hit infinity. Still can't do it with Hunting Grounds, though, cause you have to actually buy those.
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schadd

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2016, 12:01:14 am »
0

new challenge: how low can you go


kingdom: catacombs, trade route


x:0 y:-1
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2016, 12:26:36 am »
0

Is there a reason you can't Seaway Scout?  And Training?

Oh, Highway. Duh.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 12:29:30 am by eHalcyon »
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2016, 12:42:27 am »
+1

Is there a reason you can't Seaway Scout?  And Training?

Oh, Highway. Duh.

But perhaps ephesos is onto something... if Highway is in the Black Market, can we have Seaway, and get a ton more buys? 

Of course after typing that I realize, the number of times Scout is played is many orders of magnitude smaller than number of buys you end up with, so it can't really make an impact.

eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2016, 12:55:16 am »
0

Is there a reason you can't Seaway Scout?  And Training?

Oh, Highway. Duh.

But perhaps ephesos is onto something... if Highway is in the Black Market, can we have Seaway, and get a ton more buys? 

Of course after typing that I realize, the number of times Scout is played is many orders of magnitude smaller than number of buys you end up with, so it can't really make an impact.

I'm unclear on the rules for Black Market.  Does the Black Market contain infinite cards, or is it truly limited?  If it's limited, you could get your starting hand size much larger with singleton draw cards and start with way more actions with singleton villages.
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2016, 01:15:37 am »
0

use the regular rules to generate a pile, then use multiple copies of the entire pile.
This applies to all the piles, even the ones that usually have a unique feel like prizes or black market cards.

So you can pick what is in the black market, but those cards repeat infinitely.

eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2016, 02:03:03 am »
0

use the regular rules to generate a pile, then use multiple copies of the entire pile.
This applies to all the piles, even the ones that usually have a unique feel like prizes or black market cards.

So you can pick what is in the black market, but those cards repeat infinitely.

Oops, somehow I missed that it mentioned Black Market by name.

Hm, there must be a way to take advantage of this.  Maybe a trick with Inheritance could work, so that all those drawn Victory cards would be something better than Harem.  It would mean that Hunting Grounds and Scout would both have to be in the Black Market...

Edit: Hm, maybe there really isn't anything better, since Harem boosts all the Banks.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 02:29:59 am by eHalcyon »
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2016, 04:32:07 am »
+1

Play 69370 scouts, drawing 277488 victory cards

This is incorrect, isn't it?

69370*4 = 277480
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2016, 06:02:58 am »
0

Scout stops us from using Cellar and Inheritance, since we'd get arbitrary hand sizes then.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2016, 06:04:12 am »
0

We can use inheritance if Scout is in the BM though
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2016, 06:59:06 am »
0

Is there a reason you can't Seaway Scout?  And Training?

Oh, Highway. Duh.

But couldn't you just replace Highway with Quarry?
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