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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 16820 times)

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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2016, 06:34:54 pm »
+1

I believe that I can gain 1841274 cards, and the minimum Y has to be higher still. The kingdom isn't optimized at all either. Should I post it? Really worried that I missed a way to get arbitrarily many gains in this kingdom...
Into the second gear! (no that's not a hint ;))

I think I'd have a better chance of winning by posting a different solution, because there are lots of trivial ways to improve mine.
This (minor improvements to go slightly higher) is exactly why I stated you only have to post your solution after the 48 hours. Off course posting it sooner helps in the sense that other people will try to find its flaws.

About 15 years we tried some similar puzzle in the magic universe. We eventually got to numbers with more digits than atoms in the universe. I'm convinced Dominion won't go that high, but so far I'm not surprised by liopoils claim. And back then we also started with a cute day-one with three-digit-solutions.
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schadd

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2016, 06:35:32 pm »
0

oh heck. does it have talisman? if not i think talisman would be pretty good
brb, adding extra digits to my solution.
how wonderfully trivial
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2016, 06:36:44 pm »
0

Oh so if I can post what my X and Y are, and nobody beats that after 48 hours, I can just claim my prize? I will do that, after I increase X a lot with Talisman.

Most of the ideas in my solution are posted in some form or another already.
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2016, 06:37:50 pm »
0

i think you do have to post the kingdom to redeem your prize
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2016, 06:43:41 pm »
0

tactician, bank, haunted woods, crossroads, p/c, travelling fair

(x,y) = (75, 420)
add royal blacksmith, capital, fortune, remove p/c, x becomes exactly 400 (it's like woooooow)

shelters, lmao. (487, 69420)

Add Borrow (adds $1), Banquet, and Cache. Use Banquet to gain Caches buying Travelling Fairs as needed. For every $5 (including $2 for Travelling Fair), you gain 5 cards. This is better than buying only Travelling Fairs (only gets an additional gain for every $2).  X= 975, Y=9999.
Add Masquerade so the other player can give you his Necropolis. Add Crown (since n Crowns then n doubled Banks gives more money than just 2n banks)
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2016, 06:45:08 pm »
0

tactician, bank, haunted woods, crossroads, p/c, travelling fair

(x,y) = (75, 420)
add royal blacksmith, capital, fortune, remove p/c, x becomes exactly 400 (it's like woooooow)

shelters, lmao. (487, 69420)

Add Borrow (adds $1), Banquet, and Cache. Use Banquet to gain Caches buying Travelling Fairs as needed. For every $5 (including $2 for Travelling Fair), you gain 5 cards. This is better than buying only Travelling Fairs (only gets an additional gain for every $2).  X= 975, Y=9999.
Add Masquerade so the other player can give you his Necropolis. Add Crown (since n Crowns then n doubled Banks gives more money than just 2n banks)
crown has that annoying action component that makes it capable of drawing infinite cards with the blacksmith
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2016, 06:46:42 pm »
0

If we had the normal rules about number of events/kingdom piles, my kingdom would fit exactly right now.

tactician, bank, haunted woods, crossroads, p/c, travelling fair

(x,y) = (75, 420)
add royal blacksmith, capital, fortune, remove p/c, x becomes exactly 400 (it's like woooooow)

shelters, lmao. (487, 69420)

Add Borrow (adds $1), Banquet, and Cache. Use Banquet to gain Caches buying Travelling Fairs as needed. For every $5 (including $2 for Travelling Fair), you gain 5 cards. This is better than buying only Travelling Fairs (only gets an additional gain for every $2).  X= 975, Y=9999.
Add Masquerade so the other player can give you his Necropolis. Add Crown (since n Crowns then n doubled Banks gives more money than just 2n banks)
Every time someone posts a good idea like this I have to revise my solution again! Crown doesn't work for me though because of its ability to throne actions too.
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 06:51:14 pm »
+1

You could do something with Bridge Trolls to get extra buys and cost reduction on the trigger turn.

Is it easier to generate tons of coins than tons of buys (probably with Bank and Fortune)?  If so, remember Masterpiece...
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2016, 06:54:20 pm »
0

You can also put tokens on cards involved via events (+1 action will kill things though)
Counterfeiting the last Bank should be better than playing the last 2 banks.
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2016, 06:55:26 pm »
0

Also add Council Room so the opponent can make your hand larger
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 06:58:55 pm »
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Also add Council Room so the opponent can make your hand larger
I'm never going to finish at this rate...

Update: It's looking like at least 10 digits here...
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 07:01:08 pm »
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Masterpiece with at least 3 Bridge Trolls in play is 1 card per $1.  This is comparable to Banquet+Cache+Travelling Fair, which doesn't have the Bridge Troll requirement but might not get full use of every $1.

Is Crossroads+Haunted Woods more valuable than bringing King's Court into the mix?  KC should be fine as long as you have no draw cards (other than Tactician).

Also add Council Room so the opponent can make your hand larger
I'm never going to finish at this rate...

Update: It's looking like at least 10 digits here...

Are you sure you don't have a way to get unbounded gains in there? o.O
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 07:03:31 pm »
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Masterpiece with at least 3 Bridge Trolls in play is 1 card per $1.  This is comparable to Banquet+Cache+Travelling Fair, which doesn't have the Bridge Troll requirement but might not get full use of every $1.

Is Crossroads+Haunted Woods more valuable than bringing King's Court into the mix?  KC should be fine as long as you have no draw cards (other than Tactician).

Also add Council Room so the opponent can make your hand larger
I'm never going to finish at this rate...

Update: It's looking like at least 10 digits here...

Are you sure you don't have a way to get unbounded gains in there? o.O
Okay, it's clue time. The actions are bounded, but I can draw a large finite number of cards with those few actions.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 07:05:10 pm »
0

Add save for another card in your hand
You can gain 6 cards for $5 by using Ball to gain ferried Caches.
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 07:07:47 pm »
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Okay, it's clue time. The actions are bounded, but I can draw a large finite number of cards with those few actions.

Hm, current thought is Crossroads + Inheritance.




On my own ideas -- just realized that Talisman is going to be better than Haggler, since it doesn't limit the number of Bridge Trolls you can have and allows you to get 6 cards per buy (double Cache).
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 07:09:09 pm »
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Add save for another card in your hand
You can gain 6 cards for $5 by using Ball to gain ferried Caches.

Ferry only works on actions.
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 07:09:24 pm »
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Okay, so I thought I had a good thing going here, but then someone had to point out that the Crown/Bank thing doesn't work with any drawing cards :(  I only got to 673230, so liopoil is way ahead anyway.

Per that, I am going to post the thing I was using that I don't see here yet.

You should be able to add Highway to make Cache free since it shouldn't be able to increase hand size.  This gives you 3 gains for each Cache buy, which costs $2 via Travelling Fair.  With Banquet, you only gain 5 cards for $5 (Banquet + $2 for the buy).  Of course, Talisman doesn't work with Banquet, so maybe liopoil is already on this track or something better.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 07:19:01 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 07:10:50 pm »
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I think the largest finite amount of action you can get (provided there is draw) is 6: Tactician, Crossroads, 2 Necropolis
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 07:12:49 pm »
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Is Crossroads+Haunted Woods more valuable than bringing King's Court into the mix?  KC should be fine as long as you have no draw cards (other than Tactician).

I can get to 548 cards in hand with Crossroads/Haunted Woods, and that was without the 2nd player's Necropolis, so I think I would get to like 1088(more than this because of an extra Haunted Woods on the setup turn...) so probably King's Court is out.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 07:14:18 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 07:16:56 pm »
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Oh, the opponent should probably play Swamp Hags on his turn, not Council Rooms. He can play 4 Swamp Hags, if we want the acting player to have 6 actions, so that would add 4 gains for every buy.
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2016, 07:17:34 pm »
0

I just realized that Black Market is the key to this puzzle, because you can gain a single copy of every card that isn't in the Supply.

You have to use the basic victory cards and treasures, but apart from that you can use any kingdom size you like with any number of events and/or landmarks. In case you want to use piles that aren't all the same card (like ruins, or Catapult/Rocks, or knights, or...) use the regular rules to generate a pile, then use multiple copies of the entire pile.
This applies to all the piles, even the ones that usually have a unique feel like prizes or black market cards.

You can gain arbitrarily many of each, there are multiple copies of the Black Market pile.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2016, 07:19:28 pm »
+1

Okay, so I thought I had a good thing going here, but then someone had to point out that the Crown/Bank thing doesn't work with any drawing cards :(  I only got to 673230, so liopoil is way ahead.

Per that, I am going to post the thing I was using that I don't see here yet.

You should be able to add Highway to make Cache free since it shouldn't be able to increase hand size.  This gives you 3 gains for each Cache buy, which costs $2 via Travelling Fair.  With Banquet, you only gain 5 cards for $5 (Banquet + $2 for the buy).  Of course, Talisman doesn't work with Banquet, so maybe liopoil is already on this track or something better.
I am currently using highway with death cart/travelling fair for three gains per 2 coins, but that is not the main part of the solution.

Is Crossroads+Haunted Woods more valuable than bringing King's Court into the mix?  KC should be fine as long as you have no draw cards (other than Tactician).

I can get to 548 cards in hand with Crossroads/Haunted Woods, and that was without the 2nd player's Necropolis, so I think I would get to like 1088(more than this because of an extra Haunted Woods on the setup turn...) so probably King's Court is out.
Hmm is it possible to use necropolis on the setup turn? I guess it is as long as you shuffle right afterwards.

I think the largest finite amount of action you can get (provided there is draw) is 6: Tactician, Crossroads, 2 Necropolis
This is what I have too, and with two necros on the setup turn the maximum hand size before playing any cards is 29, yes?

Oh, the opponent should probably play Swamp Hags on his turn, not Council Rooms. He can play 4 Swamp Hags, if we want the acting player to have 6 actions, so that would add 4 gains for every buy.
Actually believe it or not I believe the starting hand size is more important
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 07:23:00 pm by liopoil »
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2016, 07:25:28 pm »
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Is Crossroads+Haunted Woods more valuable than bringing King's Court into the mix?  KC should be fine as long as you have no draw cards (other than Tactician).

I can get to 548 cards in hand with Crossroads/Haunted Woods, and that was without the 2nd player's Necropolis, so I think I would get to like 1088(more than this because of an extra Haunted Woods on the setup turn...) so probably King's Court is out.

Whaaaaat.  What's the general idea behind that combo?  I am drawing a blank...
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2016, 07:29:06 pm »
0


I think the largest finite amount of action you can get (provided there is draw) is 6: Tactician, Crossroads, 2 Necropolis
This is what I have too, and with two necros on the setup turn the maximum hand size before playing any cards is 29, yes?
I think it's 33 (5 normal, 5 tactician, 18 from 6 haunted woods, 4 from opponent's Council Rooms, 1 from Save)
Quote
Oh, the opponent should probably play Swamp Hags on his turn, not Council Rooms. He can play 4 Swamp Hags, if we want the acting player to have 6 actions, so that would add 4 gains for every buy.
Actually believe it or not I believe the starting hand size is more important
Yeah, I jsut figured that out as well
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Deadlock39

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2016, 07:30:46 pm »
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Okay, so I thought I had a good thing going here, but then someone had to point out that the Crown/Bank thing doesn't work with any drawing cards :(  I only got to 673230, so liopoil is way ahead.

Per that, I am going to post the thing I was using that I don't see here yet.

You should be able to add Highway to make Cache free since it shouldn't be able to increase hand size.  This gives you 3 gains for each Cache buy, which costs $2 via Travelling Fair.  With Banquet, you only gain 5 cards for $5 (Banquet + $2 for the buy).  Of course, Talisman doesn't work with Banquet, so maybe liopoil is already on this track or something better.
I am currently using highway with death cart/travelling fair for three gains per 2 coins, but that is not the main part of the solution.

Cool, hadn't thought of Death Cart and another option

Is Crossroads+Haunted Woods more valuable than bringing King's Court into the mix?  KC should be fine as long as you have no draw cards (other than Tactician).

I can get to 548 cards in hand with Crossroads/Haunted Woods, and that was without the 2nd player's Necropolis, so I think I would get to like 1088(more than this because of an extra Haunted Woods on the setup turn...) so probably King's Court is out.
Hmm is it possible to use necropolis on the setup turn? I guess it is as long as you scheme the necropolis.

I don't see why not.  Your setup turn is the last cards before you shuffle, then you shuffle and have everything you need in whatever order on the payload turn.

I think the largest finite amount of action you can get (provided there is draw) is 6: Tactician, Crossroads, 2 Necropolis
This is what I have too, and with two necros on the setup turn the maximum hand size before playing any cards is 29, yes?

Oh, the opponent should probably play Swamp Hags on his turn, not Council Rooms. He can play 4 Swamp Hags, if we want the acting player to have 6 actions, so that would add 4 gains for every buy.
Actually believe it or not I believe the starting hand size is more important

Are you sure? 4 extra gains more than doubles your total.  I guess payload does not grow linearly with handsize, so I could see that being true.

29 sounds correct to me. 5 Haunted Woods + Tactician + 4 Opponent Council Rooms.

I come up with a max handsize of 1728, but there may be restrictions from the payload that make that setup non-viable.

Edit: Save I guess... adds one to the start so a bit bigger.
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