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Author Topic: How high can you go  (Read 26809 times)

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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #225 on: June 25, 2016, 02:40:50 pm »
0


Total, that's 14 Swindlers tripled for 42 Silver in hand. (No Watchtower because another Black Market is just loads better.)
5 of the Swindlers can give us new Rocks for 5 extra silvers I think
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #226 on: June 25, 2016, 02:43:17 pm »
+1

Baker effectively gives unbounded coins when you go off.

Edit: it's a drug joke. Dangit.

I legitimately can't believe it took this entire forum like nine posts to figure this out. Nerrrrrrds. :P

I would contend that the kingdom needs Raze, because you can't #420BlazeIt without #420RazeIt.

Nah, there were certainly some who caught on earlier. I'm just surprised that people were so concerned about Teacher. Baker was mentioned late and Alchemist wasn't mentioned at all even though both would be unbounded even in the Black Market. Apothecary too, though that's slightly less obvious.
I don't see it. Unbounded cards and coins are no problem in that kingdom, since you can convert them into gains.
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eHalcyon

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #227 on: June 25, 2016, 03:08:32 pm »
+2

Baker effectively gives unbounded coins when you go off.

Edit: it's a drug joke. Dangit.

I legitimately can't believe it took this entire forum like nine posts to figure this out. Nerrrrrrds. :P

I would contend that the kingdom needs Raze, because you can't #420BlazeIt without #420RazeIt.

Nah, there were certainly some who caught on earlier. I'm just surprised that people were so concerned about Teacher. Baker was mentioned late and Alchemist wasn't mentioned at all even though both would be unbounded even in the Black Market. Apothecary too, though that's slightly less obvious.
I don't see it. Unbounded cards and coins are no problem in that kingdom, since you can convert them into gains.

Oh yeah, that's a fair point.  I retract my criticism!

Anyway, apologies for the distraction.  I contributed (or at least, participated) earlier but it's all beyond me now.  You guys are ridiculous, in the best way possible.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 03:09:46 pm by eHalcyon »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #228 on: June 25, 2016, 09:29:42 pm »
0

Well, stef wins in under 12 hours if I can't add another 38 orders of magnitude. 53 extra starting cards would get me there. Or just one extra trick during the action phase.

EDIT: For anyone who wants to help, here is my current kingdom: Golem, Haunted Woods, Messenger, Crossroads, Council Room, Storeroom, Black Market, Catacombs, Saboteur, Bridge Troll, Horn of Plenty, Ambassador, Moat, Horse Traders, Catapult/Rocks, Bank, Fortune, Watchtower, Masquerade, Band of Misfits, Crossroads, Harem, Shelters, Travelling Fair, Outpost, Mission, Raid, Save, Pathfinding, Training, Inheritance, Doctor in the black market deck

No particular order there. All of the cards mentioned are relevant somehow. I'm afraid this may give stef another leg up here, but well it is possible that he will have to reveal his solution soon too anyway.

EDIT: I forgot to Borrow!!!11!!1! Wow I have been missing out on one coin all this time.

Also, my calculations are very sloppy after the first two black market plays. I'm pretty sure the number of digits is still correct, as well as at least the first two digits of the number, so it's not really relevant.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 09:35:34 pm by liopoil »
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Seprix

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #229 on: June 25, 2016, 09:40:15 pm »
0

Just give up. Embrace the inevitability of your loss.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #230 on: June 26, 2016, 12:10:49 am »
0

Properly done out:
Setup: Play Tactician. Opponent, on a Tactician turn, plays 3 King's Courts and 5 Swindlers. He then plays Tactician and buys Messenger for Rocks and Mission. For the next hand, he plays 3 King's Courts and 4 Swindlers, Outpost, and Tactician, and the third he plays 3 King's Courts and 5 Swindlers, buying Messenger for Rocks. Total, that's 14 Swindlers tripled for 42 Silver in hand. (No Watchtower because another Black Market is just loads better.)

Then, we have a hand of 4 King's Courts and 6 Black Markets. So that's 3^18*3*42 ending Silver, 3^18*3*42/7*3^18*3*42 gains is a paltry 10^20....

Main issue really is X is different, because different cards are being used to reach it. If X was like 760 it would work... but the loss of stuff like Haunted Woods and Council Room might just be too great to bear.

FWIW I think you can do better with this strategy if you add golem (I think it's fine with no actual card draw) if you start with a hand of entirely golems you can play one hitting KC and X (swindler for the opponent, black market for us). Then use KC first on a golem again hitting KC plus 5X and repeat for as many golems as you have in hand. With a 10 card hand (tactician) this leads to (I think) 47 plays of either black market or swindler. Using coin token on golem should help increase the starting coin. Buy token on black market cause why not?

The number of golems can get up to 12 using save and overgrown estate but we still don't get anywhere near as high as stef/liopoil.

Also, buying raid is way better than ball.

One question: how are you trippling with each black market play? Isn't it double since each coin becomes a silver.

:P I meant Raid. It's an event that costs 5, hands out a negative token, and gains you cards that cost less than 4. Like, it's pretty much the same thing.

Also yes, I'm silly, Silver costs 3 and is worth 2. Make that exact same mistake all the time when I play, it gets annoying.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #231 on: June 26, 2016, 01:39:12 am »
0

Well, stef wins in under 12 hours if I can't add another 38 orders of magnitude. 53 extra starting cards would get me there. Or just one extra trick during the action phase.

EDIT: For anyone who wants to help, here is my current kingdom: Golem, Haunted Woods, Messenger, Crossroads, Council Room, Storeroom, Black Market, Catacombs, Saboteur, Bridge Troll, Horn of Plenty, Ambassador, Moat, Horse Traders, Catapult/Rocks, Bank, Fortune, Watchtower, Masquerade, Band of Misfits, Crossroads, Harem, Shelters, Travelling Fair, Outpost, Mission, Raid, Save, Pathfinding, Training, Inheritance, Doctor in the black market deck

No particular order there. All of the cards mentioned are relevant somehow. I'm afraid this may give stef another leg up here, but well it is possible that he will have to reveal his solution soon too anyway.

There's an optimal Banks to Silver ratio in the final hand to get the most out of Raid. I think it's like 2/3 Silver, 1/3 Bank, empirically. So if you can end on Storeroom, you can get a bit better.

Figured this out when I was ending on Storeroom, but I just realized you get a 7th Black Market out, so you probably end on it.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to get the last Storeroom out after the 7th Black Market... probably not doable. With 6 Black Markets, I was up to 10^443 though(where all Silver would've been 10^297). But 7 Black Markets is like 10^592, beats it out by a bit.

EDIT asdkfjalsdjas I forgot Fortune 10^628
EDIT 2 10^632. Man, so this is what Stef and Liopoil have been doing for the last 2 days...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 01:55:37 am by ephesos »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #232 on: June 26, 2016, 01:55:10 am »
0

What if the other player has Outpost, and plays a few more council rooms with that extra turn?
We're already having them take three turns with outpost and mission.

Wait... I thought it was impossible to stack those.
Apparently it works if you play outpost and buy mission on the same turn.

Here, have an idea for free, because I'm in a good mood.

In the setup turns of your opponent, start by buying Messenger, handing out Rocks.
Doesn't work in the mission turn, but should gain you two free Silvers in hand.
Good idea! Unrelated, but it shouldn't be possible to gain more than 5 rocks consecutively right, because there will be catapults?

Is it just me, or can other people see that this post somehow has -1 respect?  When I ask it to show the post voters, it says "No one has voted."  If I upvote it, will it have 0 points?

Here's the screenshot:
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Burning Skull

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #233 on: June 26, 2016, 02:24:40 am »
+4

Here's the screenshot:


Stef is trying to sink his dangerous competitior.

singletee

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #234 on: June 26, 2016, 02:25:55 am »
+2

What if the other player has Outpost, and plays a few more council rooms with that extra turn?
We're already having them take three turns with outpost and mission.

Wait... I thought it was impossible to stack those.
Apparently it works if you play outpost and buy mission on the same turn.

Here, have an idea for free, because I'm in a good mood.

In the setup turns of your opponent, start by buying Messenger, handing out Rocks.
Doesn't work in the mission turn, but should gain you two free Silvers in hand.
Good idea! Unrelated, but it shouldn't be possible to gain more than 5 rocks consecutively right, because there will be catapults?

Is it just me, or can other people see that this post somehow has -1 respect?  When I ask it to show the post voters, it says "No one has voted."  If I upvote it, will it have 0 points?

Here's the screenshot:


Oh that was me. I'm not sure how it happened, but my internet was flaking out as I tried to upvote. Somehow it ended up at -1.

ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #235 on: June 26, 2016, 02:38:36 am »
0

A small trick: if there's ever any reason to play Silver from hand(when it could have been something else instead), instead play Loan, trash Rocks, and then play Silver.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #236 on: June 26, 2016, 02:44:20 am »
0

Well I guess I give up too. Hopefully Stef has something interesting for that extra 60 or so orders of magnitude.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #237 on: June 26, 2016, 06:13:28 am »
0

A small trick: if there's ever any reason to play Silver from hand(when it could have been something else instead), instead play Loan, trash Rocks, and then play Silver.
When is there a reason to play silver from hand? I think you have to play the 7th black market. We could try having 7 storerooms instead but I really doubt it could be better.

10^632 is close enough to what I have (10^642) that you are probably doing something I'm not. Before the black market I have 75 treasures in play and 101 treasures or choice. What about you ? I also make 2/5ths of them horn of plenties...

Another helpful trick is to trash catacombs instead of rocks, gaining rocks from the supply, then trashing those rocks with watchtower for double the silver. Oh hey I could use swindler for four silver that way...

I noticed the -1 respect thing too. Anyone feel like upvoting it? :D
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 07:16:05 am by liopoil »
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Watno

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #238 on: June 26, 2016, 09:29:25 am »
0

Another helpful trick is to trash catacombs instead of rocks, gaining rocks from the supply, then trashing those rocks with watchtower for double the silver. Oh hey I could use swindler for four silver that way...
I already mentioned this before, but the problem is that there are Catapults in the Rocks pile (it alternates 5 Rocks, 5 Catapults,...). ButI think we can fix thsi with Ambassador.
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #239 on: June 26, 2016, 09:42:09 am »
0

Another helpful trick is to trash catacombs instead of rocks, gaining rocks from the supply, then trashing those rocks with watchtower for double the silver. Oh hey I could use swindler for four silver that way...
I already mentioned this before, but the problem is that there are Catapults in the Rocks pile (it alternates 5 Rocks, 5 Catapults,...). ButI think we can fix thsi with Ambassador.
Yep, I asked about this already and ambassador (moat is optional) lets us put arbitrarily many rocks on top. Anyway, now stef has to show us a strategy to get at least 10^679 gains.
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #240 on: June 26, 2016, 10:33:15 am »
+19

Ok, there we go. I'm presenting my solution to gain 1144984654515892827802567314832769041691676863703131934603190188997614567578185624581386001307608095799276860334911251291698220220124267149219119259379847134047965330424563783312811937771607123581116388968371135803349729156312659169172550861545293360578603315678770088698740345651496923537838329278268646846918631291238187081449787678296076025654416968734506964357922542056120438195935493686733002703535684515870737600547923211804992822638054047480607618340221073896765506754445939988036352567644956492571362257210164493681791996415538665998509593878443259663136974182438382670373276114935342739800093147793641723534331508332889243431764867853726235461445918410783841767574478283420722697738019398918273507776666078694781664920 silvers on a single turn, and I'll write big numbers like that as 1.14E727 from here on.

First of all, I should say that the forum caught up with all but one of my tricks, and I caught up with most things liopoil included. (I don't quite get the catacombs but I figured they didn't help much - I might not have everything else optimized and I'm sure people will find bigger numbers if they keep looking). We exchanged some ideas left & right, provided some clues, there you go.

For those of you unaware of the plan to reach 630-ish digits, I'll present that as well. After all, I'm supposed to give a full solution.

We put Pathfinding, Seaway and Training on Band of Misfits (use ferry).
We put Inheritance on Horse Traders.
We use some Ambassador/Moat-ing to get 6 Rocks on top of the Catapult/Rocks pile, then use masq to trash that Amb+Moat.


Turn T-3 by opponent:
 play crossroads, play 3x councilroom
Turn T-2 by us:
 8x golem, play all, finding 2x Necro, crossroads, 13 * Haunted Woods. Buy save (set aside estate).
 at the end of this turn you reshuffle and redraw both your necros. Everything else you draw is inherited Estate.
Turn T-1A (Regular) by opponent:
 golem into masq + crossroads (give estate, get necropolis)
 golem into masq + storeroom (give estate, get necropolis, discard both necropolis)
 golem into necro + necro
 golem into outpost + councilroom
 4x golem into councilroom + councilroom
 opponent buys Messenger (getting us rocks, drawing Silver) and Mission.
Turn T-1B (Outpost) by opponent
 golem into councilroom + crossroads
 golem into necro + necro
 6x golem into councilroom + councilroom
Turn T-1C (Mission) by opponent
 golem into councilroom + crossroads
 golem into councilroom + councilroom
 golem into councilroom + swindler
 golem into masquerade + masquerade (Sending Necro, getting Silver)

-> Our hand was 2x Necro, 4x Estate at the start of T-1A.
   Our Necro's were replaces by estates.
   We got 26 more Estates from Councilrooms.
   We got 4 Silvers in hand (2 from Messengers on Rocks, 2 from a Swindler replacing Rocks with Rocks)
   We set aside all 32 Estates on the Swindler play.
   The last two masquerades replaced 2 Silvers with 2 Necro's

-> At the start of our turn we have 2 necropolis and 2 silver.
   We return the 32 Esatetes and draw 31 Harems with them and a Golem
   We also draw 13*3 = 39 Harems from the Haunted Woods.

This part of the 1E638 and the 1E727 plan are identical. Now it's time for the payload turn, and on this turn we get to play 13 actions with golems. The idea is very much the same as on Turn T-1B(outpost): We play 8 golems: the first finds a Crossroads, the 4th and the 6th find a Necropolis.

In the 1E638 plan we use those 13 "payload slots" on alternating Black martket and Storeroom. There are some details to keep in mind:
1) on the first black market play, we add a Fortune. Doubling the money early is better than doubling it later.
2) we can't just find those Necropolises with our Golem, because they will be in our discard and our drawpile is huge. However, the drawpile is mostly rocks, and we simply skip over all the actions with the last storeroom before the golem that needs to find necro. Skipping over ~100 cards is no problem when our handsize is already having 100 digits.

Here is the output from my computer program alternating Black Markets and Storerooms:
Code: [Select]
13 duration haunted woods increases Harems by 39 to total of 39
returning horse traders to hand increases EstateHorseTraders by 32 to total of 32
returning horse traders draws increases Harems by 31 to total of 70
from opponent messengers into rocks increases SilversInHand by 2 to total of 2

Playing a Golem
Playing a Crossroads
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
drawing a bank for each harem increases Banks by 70 to total of 71
drawing a bank for each horse traders increases Banks by 32 to total of 103
requiring 1 golems decreases Banks by 1 to total of 102
requiring 1 fortune decreases Banks by 1 to total of 101
crossroads draws it increases Fortunes by 1 to total of 1

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 102
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
playing all Harems increases TreasuresInPlay by 70 to total of 70
playing all Harems increases Coins by 140 to total of 144
playing all reset Harems to 0
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 2 to total of 72
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 4 to total of 148
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 102 of my 102 banks
Average bank is worth half of 247
playing 102 banks increases Coins by 12597 to total of 12745
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 102 to total of 174
played banks decreases Banks by 102 to total of 0
Playing fortune increases Coins by a factor of 2 to total of 25490
just played it reset Fortunes to 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 25489 to total of 25489
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Golem
Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
discarding all to storeroom reset EstateHorseTraders to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 25520 to total of 25521

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 25522
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 25522 of my 25522 banks
Average bank is worth half of 25871
playing 25522 banks increases Coins by 330139831 to total of 330139835
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 25522 to total of 25696
played banks decreases Banks by 25522 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 330139834 to total of 330139834
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Golem
Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 330139833 to total of 330139834

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 330139835
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 330139835 of my 330139835 banks
Average bank is worth half of 330191228
playing 330139835 banks increases Coins by 5.44E17 to total of 5.44E17
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 330139835 to total of 330165531
played banks decreases Banks by 330139835 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 5.44E17 to total of 5.44E17
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Golem
Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 5.44E17 to total of 5.44E17

Playing a Necropolis

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 5.44E17
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 5.44E17 of my 5.44E17 banks
Average bank is worth half of 5.44E17
playing 5.44E17 banks increases Coins by 1.44E34 to total of 1.44E34
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 5.44E17 to total of 5.44E17
played banks decreases Banks by 5.44E17 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 1.44E34 to total of 1.44E34
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 1.44E34 to total of 1.44E34

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1.44E34
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 1.44E34 of my 1.44E34 banks
Average bank is worth half of 1.44E34
playing 1.44E34 banks increases Coins by 1.11E67 to total of 1.11E67
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 1.44E34 to total of 1.44E34
played banks decreases Banks by 1.44E34 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 1.11E67 to total of 1.11E67
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Necropolis

Playing a Golem
Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 1.11E67 to total of 1.11E67

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1.11E67
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 1.11E67 of my 1.11E67 banks
Average bank is worth half of 1.11E67
playing 1.11E67 banks increases Coins by 6.00E132 to total of 6.00E132
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 1.11E67 to total of 1.11E67
played banks decreases Banks by 1.11E67 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 6.00E132 to total of 6.00E132
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Golem
Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 6.00E132 to total of 6.00E132

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 6.00E132
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 6.00E132 of my 6.00E132 banks
Average bank is worth half of 6.00E132
playing 6.00E132 banks increases Coins by 1.88E264 to total of 1.88E264
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 6.00E132 to total of 6.00E132
played banks decreases Banks by 6.00E132 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 1.88E264 to total of 1.88E264
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0


ran out of actions
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 1.88E264 to total of 1.88E264
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 3.77E264 to total of 3.77E264
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 0 of my 0 banks
Average bank is worth half of 3.77E264
Use travelling fair to get 5.22E263 buys
Raid is worth 9.77E526 silvers
Raid is worth 9792714001821727000070107334949971686771078749904813765885453908814580748804177525075179323487691615697973940873964165126139583785005470784439416206017754876198357521361240030641781258784600843630065615714511786325079708202071648458563198365972098015067392607921171333887579103558357285950169478882391212601296212552569126941055145110203744766705831134004787763014441730857259485433594481004383783931943030045532447473863185796087824311361295287040597787912773676267522052313043003362484230907158938492930844176496787623104284 silvers

As you can see I get to 6.00E132 banks, resulting in 9.77E526 gains. Somehow lio got up to 1E150 banks with what should be the same plan, so maybe he has a few more tricks up his sleeve. However, now let's finally get to the improvements for the last 100 digits.

The whole clue of that trick is that it's better to not play all your banks. This might sound strange at first, but let's have a look at what happens on the last black market play.
Suppose of those 6.00E132 banks I play "only" 4.00E132 and keep the other 2.00E132 in my wallet. Now of course I can overpay for the doctor less, so I draw 8.22E263 Silvers instead of the 1.88E264 Silvers I would have drawn had I played all of my banks. But now I go to my buy phase, and after playing those 8.22E263 Silvers I still have the 2.00E132 banks I saved up and now they make much more money!

Using this idea on the last buyphase I get to 1.99E657 gains. Ephesos was using the same idea but got to 1E638, I don't know whats up with that.

But the real beauty is that we can use this trick multiple times throughout our solution. Instead of going
BlackMarket -> Storeroom-> Black Market -> Storeroom-> Black Market -> Storeroom
we will be using
BlackMarket(2/3) -> Black Market (all) -> Storeroom-> Black Market (2/3) -> Black Market(all) -> Storeroom.

This means the average black market play is a bit worse than it was in the original plan, but we do manage to get in 9 Black Market plays instead of just 7. Enough to make up for another 80-ish digits.

after doing a bit of fiddling with the numbers this now is my plan:
Code: [Select]
    Card[][] plan = {
            {new Crossroads(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(1)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new BlackMarket(Mode.MAJORITY)},
    };

It results in these numbers:
Code: [Select]
13 duration haunted woods increases Harems by 39 to total of 39
returning horse traders to hand increases EstateHorseTraders by 32 to total of 32
returning horse traders draws increases Harems by 31 to total of 70
from opponent messengers into rocks increases SilversInHand by 2 to total of 2

Playing a Golem
Playing a Crossroads
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
drawing a bank for each harem increases Banks by 70 to total of 71
drawing a bank for each horse traders increases Banks by 32 to total of 103
requiring 1 golems decreases Banks by 1 to total of 102
requiring 1 fortune decreases Banks by 1 to total of 101
crossroads draws it increases Fortunes by 1 to total of 1

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 102
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
playing all Harems increases TreasuresInPlay by 70 to total of 70
playing all Harems increases Coins by 140 to total of 144
playing all reset Harems to 0
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 2 to total of 72
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 4 to total of 148
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 102 of my 102 banks
Average bank is worth half of 247
playing 102 banks increases Coins by 12597 to total of 12745
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 102 to total of 174
played banks decreases Banks by 102 to total of 0
Playing fortune increases Coins by a factor of 2 to total of 25490
just played it reset Fortunes to 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 25489 to total of 25489
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Golem
Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
We draw 2 extra banks because we discard 2 necropolis
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
discarding all to storeroom reset EstateHorseTraders to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 25522 to total of 25523

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 25524
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 16998 of my 25524 banks
Average bank is worth half of 17347
playing 16998 banks increases Coins by 147432153 to total of 147432157
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 16998 to total of 17172
played banks decreases Banks by 16998 to total of 8526
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 147432156 to total of 147432156
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 8527
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 3
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 147432156 to total of 147449328
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 294864312 to total of 294864315
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 8527 of my 8527 banks
Average bank is worth half of 294907184
playing 8527 banks increases Coins by 1.22E13 to total of 1.22E13
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 8527 to total of 147457855
played banks decreases Banks by 8527 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 1.22E13 to total of 1.22E13
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
We draw 100 less banks because we need to skip over some actions
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 1.22E13 to total of 1.22E13

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1.22E13
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 8.33E12 of my 1.22E13 banks
Average bank is worth half of 8.33E12
playing 8.33E12 banks increases Coins by 3.55E24 to total of 3.55E24
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 8.33E12 to total of 8.33E12
played banks decreases Banks by 8.33E12 to total of 4.22E12
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 3.55E24 to total of 3.55E24
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Necropolis

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 4.22E12
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 3
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 3.55E24 to total of 3.55E24
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 7.00E24 to total of 7.00E24
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 4.22E12 of my 4.22E12 banks
Average bank is worth half of 7.00E24
playing 4.22E12 banks increases Coins by 1.44E36 to total of 1.44E36
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 4.22E12 to total of 3.55E24
played banks decreases Banks by 4.22E12 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 1.44E36 to total of 1.44E36
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 1.44E36 to total of 1.44E36

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1.44E36
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 9.88E35 of my 1.44E36 banks
Average bank is worth half of 9.88E35
playing 9.88E35 banks increases Coins by 4.88E70 to total of 4.88E70
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 9.88E35 to total of 9.88E35
played banks decreases Banks by 9.88E35 to total of 4.99E35
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 4.88E70 to total of 4.88E70
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a Necropolis

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 4.99E35
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 3
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 4.88E70 to total of 4.88E70
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 9.66E70 to total of 9.66E70
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 4.99E35 of my 4.99E35 banks
Average bank is worth half of 9.66E70
playing 4.99E35 banks increases Coins by 2.33E105 to total of 2.33E105
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 4.99E35 to total of 4.88E70
played banks decreases Banks by 4.99E35 to total of 0
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 2.33E105 to total of 2.33E105
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a StoreRoom
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 1
discarded all to storeroom reset SilversInHand to 0
drawing with storeroom increases Banks by 2.33E105 to total of 2.33E105

Playing a Golem
Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 2
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 2.33E105
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 4
I'm playing 1.55E105 of my 2.33E105 banks
Average bank is worth half of 1.55E105
playing 1.55E105 banks increases Coins by 1.22E209 to total of 1.22E209
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 1.55E105 to total of 1.55E105
played banks decreases Banks by 1.55E105 to total of 7.99E104
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 1.22E209 to total of 1.22E209
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0

Playing a BlackMarket
training increases Coins by 1 to total of 1
pathfinding increases Banks by 1 to total of 7.99E104
playing black market increases Coins by 2 to total of 3
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 1.22E209 to total of 1.22E209
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 2.44E209 to total of 2.44E209
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 6.88E104 of my 7.99E104 banks
Average bank is worth half of 2.44E209
playing 6.88E104 banks increases Coins by 8.55E312 to total of 8.55E312
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 6.88E104 to total of 1.22E209
played banks decreases Banks by 6.88E104 to total of 1.11E104
Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks increases SilversInHand by 8.55E312 to total of 8.55E312
used all money on doctor reset Coins to 0


ran out of actions
playing all SilversInHand increases TreasuresInPlay by 8.55E312 to total of 8.55E312
playing all SilversInHand increases Coins by 1.77E313 to total of 1.77E313
playing all reset SilversInHand to 0
I'm playing 1.11E104 of my 1.11E104 banks
Average bank is worth half of 1.77E313
playing 1.11E104 banks increases Coins by 9.44E415 to total of 9.44E415
playing banks increases TreasuresInPlay by 1.11E104 to total of 8.55E312
played banks decreases Banks by 1.11E104 to total of 0
Use travelling fair to get 1.33E415 buys
Raid is worth 1.11E727 silvers
Raid is worth 1144984654515892827802567314832769041691676863703131934603190188997614567578185624581386001307608095799276860334911251291698220220124267149219119259379847134047965330424563783312811937771607123581116388968371135803349729156312659169172550861545293360578603315678770088698740345651496923537838329278268646846918631291238187081449787678296076025654416968734506964357922542056120438195935493686733002703535684515870737600547923211804992822638054047480607618340221073896765506754445939988036352567644956492571362257210164493681791996415538665998509593878443259663136974182438382670373276114935342739800093147793641723534331508332889243431764867853726235461445918410783841767574478283420722697738019398918273507776666078694781664920 silvers

And for those of you who like to play around with my program, here is the source:
Code: [Select]
package dominion.main;

import java.math.BigInteger;

public class Main {

    public static final BigInteger MINUS_ONE = BigInteger.valueOf(-1);
    public static final BigInteger TWO = BigInteger.valueOf(2);

    enum Mode {TWO_THIRD, ALL, MAJORITY}

    /*
    Setting it up

We put Pathfinding, Seaway and Training on Band of Misfits (use ferry).
We put Inheritance on Horse Traders.
We use some Ambassador/Moat-ing to get 6 Rocks on top of the Catapult/Rocks pile, then use masq to trash that Amb+Moat.


Turn T-3 by opponent:
 play crossroads, play 3x councilroom
Turn T-2 by us:
 8x golem, play all, finding 2x Necro, crossroads, 13 * Haunted Woods. Buy save (set aside estate).
 at the end of this turn you reshuffle and redraw both your necros. Everything else you draw is inherited Estate.
Turn T-1A (Regular) by opponent:
 golem into masq + crossroads (give estate, get necropolis)
 golem into masq + storeroom (give estate, get necropolis, discard both necropolis)
 golem into necro + necro
 golem into outpost + councilroom
 4x golem into councilroom + councilroom
 opponent buys Messenger (getting us rocks, drawing Silver) and Mission.
Turn T-1B (Outpost) by opponent
 golem into councilroom + crossroads
 golem into necro + necro
 6x golem into councilroom + councilroom
Turn T-1C (Mission) by opponent
 golem into councilroom + crossroads
 golem into councilroom + councilroom
 golem into councilroom + swindler
 golem into masquerade + masquerade (Sending Necro, getting Silver)

-> Our hand was 2x Necro, 4x Estate at the start of T-1A.
   Our Necro's were replaces by estates.
   We got 26 more Estates from Councilrooms.
   We got 4 Silvers in hand (2 from Messengers, 2 from a Swindler replacing Rocks with Rocks)
   We set aside all 32 Estates on the Swindler play.
   The last two masquerades replaced 2 Silvers with 2 Necro's

-> At the start of our turn we have 2 necropolis and 2 silver.
   We return the 32 Esatetes and draw 31 Harems with them and a Golem
   We also draw 13*3 = 39 Harems from the Haunted Woods.
     */

    public static void main(String[] args) {
        new Main().start();
    }

    Variable coins = new Variable("Coins");
    Variable horseTraders = new Variable("EstateHorseTraders");
    Variable harems = new Variable("Harems");
    Variable banks = new Variable("Banks");
    Variable treasuresInPlay = new Variable("TreasuresInPlay");
    Variable silvers = new Variable("SilversInHand", 0);
    Variable fortunes = new Variable("Fortunes", 0);
    Variable talisman = new Variable("TalismanInHand");
    Variable talismanInPlay = new Variable("TalismanInPlay");

    /*
    Card[][] plan = {
            {new Crossroads(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(1)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new BlackMarket(Mode.MAJORITY)},
    };*/


    Card[][] plan = {
            {new Crossroads(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(1)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD), new BlackMarket(Mode.MAJORITY)},
    };

    Card[][] planB = {
            {new Crossroads(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new Necropolis()},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new StoreRoom(2)},
            {new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL), new Necropolis()},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.ALL)},
            {new StoreRoom(1), new BlackMarket(Mode.TWO_THIRD)},
    };


    private void start() {
        harems.add(13 * 3, "13 duration haunted woods");
        horseTraders.add(32, "returning horse traders to hand");
        harems.add(31, "returning horse traders draws");
        silvers.add(2, "from opponent messengers into rocks");

        System.out.println();
        for (Card[] golemPlan : plan) {
            System.out.println ("Playing a Golem");
            for (Card card : golemPlan) {
                card.describeExecute();
            }
        }

        System.out.println("\nran out of actions");
        BigInteger silversInPlay = silvers.getValue();
        playTwoCoinTreasures(silvers);
        playBanks(banks.getValue());
        BigInteger buys = coins.getValue().divide(BigInteger.valueOf(7));
        System.out.println("Use travelling fair to get " + toE(buys) + " buys");
        BigInteger raid = buys.multiply(silversInPlay);
        System.out.println("Raid is worth " + toE(raid) + " silvers");
        System.out.println("Raid is worth " + raid + " silvers");
    }


    private void playTwoCoinTreasures(Variable variable) {
        if (variable.greaterThan(0)) {
            treasuresInPlay.add(variable.getValue(), "playing all " + variable.getName());
            coins.add(variable.getValue().multiply(TWO), "playing all " + variable.getName());
            variable.reset("playing all");
        }
    }

    private void playBanks(BigInteger playedNumber) {
        System.out.println("I'm playing " + toE(playedNumber) + " of my " + toE(banks.getValue()) + " banks");
        BigInteger doubleAverageBank = treasuresInPlay.getValue().multiply(TWO).add(playedNumber.add(BigInteger.ONE));
        System.out.println("Average bank is worth half of " + toE(doubleAverageBank));
        coins.add(playedNumber.multiply(doubleAverageBank).divide(TWO), "playing " + toE(playedNumber) + " banks");
        treasuresInPlay.add(playedNumber, "playing banks");
        banks.subtract(playedNumber, "played banks");
    }


    public abstract class Card {

        void describeExecute() {
            System.out.println("Playing a " + getClass().getSimpleName());
            bandOfMisfitsPlay();
            System.out.println();
        }

        void bandOfMisfitsPlay() {
            coins.add(BigInteger.ONE, "training");
            banks.add(BigInteger.ONE, "pathfinding");
            execute();
        }

        abstract void execute();
    }

    public class Crossroads extends Card {

        private final int golems;

        public Crossroads(int golems) {
            this.golems = golems;
        }

        @Override
        void execute() {
            banks.add(harems.getValue(), "drawing a bank for each harem");
            banks.add(horseTraders.getValue(), "drawing a bank for each horse traders");
            banks.subtract(golems, "requiring " + golems + " golems");
            banks.subtract(1, "requiring 1 fortune");
            fortunes.add(1, "crossroads draws it");
        }
    }

    public class Necropolis extends Card {
        @Override
        void execute() {
        }

        @Override
        void bandOfMisfitsPlay() {
        }
    }

    public class BlackMarket extends Card {

        private final Mode mode;

        public BlackMarket(Mode mode) {
            this.mode = mode;
        }

        @Override
        void execute() {
            coins.add(TWO, "playing black market");
            playTwoCoinTreasures(harems);
            playTwoCoinTreasures(silvers);
            talismanInPlay.add(talisman.getValue(), "play all talisman");
            treasuresInPlay.add(talisman.getValue(), "played all talisman");
            talisman.reset("just played all");
            BigInteger playedBanks = banks.getValue();
            if (mode == Mode.TWO_THIRD) {
                playedBanks = playedBanks.multiply(BigInteger.valueOf(666)).divide(BigInteger.valueOf(1000));
            } else if (mode == Mode.MAJORITY) {
                playedBanks = playedBanks.multiply(BigInteger.valueOf(86)).divide(BigInteger.valueOf(100));
            }
            playBanks(playedBanks);
            if (fortunes.equalTo(1)) {
                coins.multiply(TWO, "Playing fortune");
                fortunes.reset("just played it");
            }
            silvers.add(coins.getValue().subtract(BigInteger.ONE), "Overpaying Doctor, trashing Rocks");
            coins.reset("used all money on doctor");
        }
    }

    int storeroomCounter = 0;

    public class StoreRoom extends Card {

        private final int golems;
        private final int storeroomCount;

        public StoreRoom(int golems) {
            this.golems = golems;
            this.storeroomCount = ++storeroomCounter;
        }

        @Override
        void execute() {
            BigInteger banksDraw = silvers.getValue().add(horseTraders.getValue().subtract(BigInteger.valueOf(golems)));
            if (storeroomCount == 1) {
                banksDraw = banksDraw.add(TWO);
                System.out.println("We draw 2 extra banks because we discard 2 necropolis");
            } else if (storeroomCount == 2) {
                System.out.println("We draw 100 less banks because we need to skip over some actions");
                banksDraw = banksDraw.subtract(BigInteger.valueOf(100));
            }
            silvers.reset("discarded all to storeroom");
            horseTraders.reset("discarding all to storeroom");
            banks.add(banksDraw, "drawing with storeroom");
        }
    }

    public static String toE(BigInteger value) {
        if (value.compareTo(BigInteger.valueOf(1000000000)) < 0) return value.toString();
        return String.format("%s.%s%sE%d", value.toString().charAt(0), value.toString().charAt(1), value.toString().charAt(1), value.toString().length());
    }


}


package dominion.main;

import java.math.BigInteger;
import static dominion.main.Main.toE;

public class Variable {

    private BigInteger value;
    private String name;

    public Variable(String name, BigInteger value) {
        this.value = value;
        this.name = name;
    }

    public Variable(String name, int value) {
        this(name, BigInteger.valueOf(value));
    }


    public Variable(String name) {
        this(name, BigInteger.ZERO);
    }


    public void add(BigInteger addition, String reason) {
        if (!addition.equals(BigInteger.ZERO)) {
            value = value.add(addition);
            System.out.printf("%s increases %s by %s to total of %s\n", reason, name, toE(addition), toE(value));
        }
    }

    public void add(int addition, String reason) {
        add(BigInteger.valueOf(addition), reason);
    }

    public void subtract(BigInteger subtraction, String reason) {
        if (!subtraction.equals(BigInteger.ZERO)) {
            value = value.subtract(subtraction);
            System.out.printf("%s decreases %s by %s to total of %s\n", reason, name, toE(subtraction), toE(value));
        }
    }

    public void subtract(int subtraction, String reason) {
        subtract(BigInteger.valueOf(subtraction), reason);
    }

    public void multiply(BigInteger multiplication, String reason) {
        value = value.multiply(multiplication);
        System.out.printf("%s increases %s by a factor of %s to total of %s\n", reason, name, multiplication, toE(value));
    }


    public void reset(String reason) {
        if (!value.equals(BigInteger.ZERO)) {
            value = BigInteger.ZERO;
            System.out.println(reason + " reset " + name + " to 0");
        }
    }

    public void multiply(int multiplication, String reason) {
        multiply(BigInteger.valueOf(multiplication), reason);
    }

    public boolean greaterThan(int someValue) {
        return value.compareTo(BigInteger.valueOf(someValue)) > 0;
    }

    public boolean equalTo(int someValue) {
        return value.equals(BigInteger.valueOf(someValue));
    }

    public BigInteger getValue() {
        return value;
    }

    public String getName() {
        return name;
    }
}
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-Stef-

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #241 on: June 26, 2016, 01:06:36 pm »
0

I don't know if people are still looking now, but last night I thought of some things for "the other strategy", with KC-Golem-Black Market

1. It's hard to play both tactician and buy Save. That was now part of the plan but doesn't really work.
2. Your setup turn can be improved a lot by doing KC-Golem into 3x {tactician, draw silver}. You get to play 3 tacticians that way.
3. In fact, if you start with KC-KC-Golem into tact, and trash overgrown estate during setup, you can activate 6 tacticians.

-> that means starting hand goes up to 35 from just 12. I don't really have a good feel for the consequences though. I think it's still not enough to beat the 1E727 unless something else shows up.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #242 on: June 26, 2016, 01:18:25 pm »
+1

Didn't quite have the exact same trick, but I figured that having a bunch of Banks on the last play was good, though you still needed Silver. Couldn't figure out how to get them without ending on Storeroom though.

Another trick I was using was HoP for Rocks instead of Silver. I had Loan for a bit, but Gain+trash is double. So you get triple the Treasure and double the Silver.

Saving the Banks between plays is really cool. I wonder if there's a way to just go all Black Markets, or like cut down to one Storeroom every 3 or stuff like that. Did some math to get out the optimal ratio; I'm sure there's a way to do the same for an arbitrary sequence of Black Market/Storeroom, but it probably requires Mathematica.
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ephesos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #243 on: June 26, 2016, 01:33:54 pm »
0

I don't know if people are still looking now, but last night I thought of some things for "the other strategy", with KC-Golem-Black Market

1. It's hard to play both tactician and buy Save. That was now part of the plan but doesn't really work.
2. Your setup turn can be improved a lot by doing KC-Golem into 3x {tactician, draw silver}. You get to play 3 tacticians that way.
3. In fact, if you start with KC-KC-Golem into tact, and trash overgrown estate during setup, you can activate 6 tacticians.

-> that means starting hand goes up to 35 from just 12. I don't really have a good feel for the consequences though. I think it's still not enough to beat the 1E727 unless something else shows up.

Gonna recompute it anyway, but I don't think it's the sort of drastic change needed.

Start with 56 Silver and 35 Golems
35 times: Golem into KC into Golem....
So that's 103 Golem plays playing 206 actions: 34 KC plays and 172 Black Market plays

Each Black Market doubles the money, so it's around 56*2*2^172=10^53 ending Silver for 10^105 gains. Still not that close. Wish you could Watchtower or Catacombs for double gains, but that's infinite of course.
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Chaos

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #244 on: June 26, 2016, 01:49:30 pm »
0

I don't know if people are still looking now, but last night I thought of some things for "the other strategy", with KC-Golem-Black Market

1. It's hard to play both tactician and buy Save. That was now part of the plan but doesn't really work.
2. Your setup turn can be improved a lot by doing KC-Golem into 3x {tactician, draw silver}. You get to play 3 tacticians that way.
3. In fact, if you start with KC-KC-Golem into tact, and trash overgrown estate during setup, you can activate 6 tacticians.

-> that means starting hand goes up to 35 from just 12. I don't really have a good feel for the consequences though. I think it's still not enough to beat the 1E727 unless something else shows up.
Unfortunately I think this leads to an unbounded solution:

1. Tactician
2. 10 golems into king's court golem chain and play alternating tacticians and black markets (or any way to gain cards in hand)
3. keep repeating to put ever more tacticians in play leading to an arbitrarily large hand size (over the course of many turns)

This works because tactician never discards golems. You can get the golems all in play before resolving a tactician by always resolving the king's courts first.

So basically the KC golem plan is useless.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 01:58:30 pm by Chaos »
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liopoil

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #245 on: June 26, 2016, 02:05:42 pm »
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That's pretty slick! I don't have anything like that program; just a spreadsheet and a text file.

I have a feeling that isn't totally optimized though, and there are a couple of tricks you aren't using. I'll see what I get when I adapt to the new play-order. The catacombs add a multiple of about 2^31 (~2x10^9) I believe, but I'll need to check that. You should also use horns of plenty.

For your deck cycling you discard some action cards for coins with storeroom? That works, but I liked my way better, oh well.

Why is the 2/3-1/3 ratio optimal? HoPs also make it more complicated.

Also @ephesos, what's wrong with watchtower/catacombs?
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #246 on: June 26, 2016, 02:41:31 pm »
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...So basically the KC golem plan is useless....
hmm afraid you're right.

I have a feeling that isn't totally optimized though, and there are a couple of tricks you aren't using. I'll see what I get when I adapt to the new play-order. The catacombs add a multiple of about 2^31 (~2x10^9) I believe, but I'll need to check that. You should also use horns of plenty.

Ahhhhh.... catacombs. I was thinking about opponents swindler hitting it and didn't understand why it helped at all. But now I just figured out my own doctors can be trashing catacombs all the time as well... actually that matters a lot more than what you just said. Now at a full 100 extra digits for 2.99E838 gains.

I still don't get what the horn of plenty is doing.
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #247 on: June 26, 2016, 03:15:01 pm »
+1

I still don't get what the horn of plenty is doing.
They give you 2 silver in hand for a total of 3 treasures played per HoP while resolving black market I think.
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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #248 on: June 26, 2016, 03:16:24 pm »
0

Also @ephesos, what's wrong with watchtower/catacombs?
He's using KC as well.
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florrat

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Re: How high can you go
« Reply #249 on: June 26, 2016, 04:20:53 pm »
0

Just read this thread now. These are some very impressive solutions! I enjoyed the incremental improvements in this thread.

@Stef: is there a reason the opponent doesn't buy Messenger on every turn the Outpost turn?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 04:24:01 pm by florrat »
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