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Author Topic: Inheritance  (Read 6616 times)

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Davio

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Inheritance
« on: June 17, 2016, 05:47:00 am »
+3

I noticed something during Mic's match with Stef: If you buy an Estate while inheriting Ports, you get an extra Port. Stef said this was correct and I usually trust him on rule issues like this, since he has to check these things for the new online Dominion.

I guess this is because the "when you buy this" is checked after "this" has been bought (as was similarly discussed about when-gain). When you buy it, it becomes yours, so the Estate is yours and Inheritance kicks in, so you get an extra Port (the Estate doesn't know any better, it thinks it's a Port).

Pretty cool.

Now, you can have even more fun, buy an Estate, gain a Port, reveal Trader to get a Silver instead of the Estate.
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Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2016, 12:49:30 pm »
0

(the Estate doesn't know any better, it thinks it's a Port).

Not really, it's an Estate, and it's not seen as a copy of a Port for things that care about that.
It's just the when-buy ability that tells you to gain a Port. (You have to ignore the "another" though.)

AJD

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2016, 02:07:48 pm »
+3

(the Estate doesn't know any better, it thinks it's a Port).

Not really, it's an Estate, and it's not seen as a copy of a Port for things that care about that.
It's just the when-buy ability that tells you to gain a Port. (You have to ignore the "another" though.)

You know, another Port. In addition to the any previous Ports you might have gained, or the one that's set aside over there.
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Erick648

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 08:27:34 pm »
+1

(the Estate doesn't know any better, it thinks it's a Port).

Not really, it's an Estate, and it's not seen as a copy of a Port for things that care about that.
It's just the when-buy ability that tells you to gain a Port. (You have to ignore the "another" though.)

You know, another Port. In addition to the any previous Ports you might have gained, or the one that's set aside over there.
Really, the reason it says "another" is doubtless because if it said, "When you buy this, gain a Port," it would sound redundant ("Of course when I buy it I gain it; that's why I bought it!").  It would be easy enough to figure out that it meant to gain a second Port (both from a strict reading of the rules and because it would be pointless for it to tell you to gain the card you just bought), but "gain another Port" just sounds so much better.
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michaeljb

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2016, 02:52:46 pm »
+1

(the Estate doesn't know any better, it thinks it's a Port).

Not really, it's an Estate, and it's not seen as a copy of a Port for things that care about that.
It's just the when-buy ability that tells you to gain a Port. (You have to ignore the "another" though.)

You know, another Port. In addition to the any previous Ports you might have gained, or the one that's set aside over there.
Really, the reason it says "another" is doubtless because if it said, "When you buy this, gain a Port," it would sound redundant ("Of course when I buy it I gain it; that's why I bought it!").  It would be easy enough to figure out that it meant to gain a second Port (both from a strict reading of the rules and because it would be pointless for it to tell you to gain the card you just bought), but "gain another Port" just sounds so much better.

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Seprix

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2016, 03:08:21 pm »
0

When Inherited, all of your Estates have the abilities and types of the set aside card. The ability of Port is to gain another Port when bought. When Estates are Inherited as Highways, the effect still takes place. When you Inherit Nomad Camp, you topdeck Estates when you buy them. It just seems weird with Port because it gains a Port instead of say, an Estate.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2016, 04:05:47 pm »
+3

When Inherited, all of your Estates have the abilities and types of the set aside card. The ability of Port is to gain another Port when bought. When Estates are Inherited as Highways, the effect still takes place. When you Inherit Nomad Camp, you topdeck Estates when you buy them. It just seems weird with Port because it gains a Port instead of say, an Estate.

That's not why it seems weird.  It seems weird because it's not intuitively obvious that that Estate is yours at the time you gain it.  The situation with Nomad Camp and Port are exactly the same level of weirdness to me.  Highway isn't weird because it is very obviously yours while it is in play.
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Seprix

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2016, 04:06:39 pm »
0

Estates are Estates until they enter your possession, i.e. gains. If there is ever a card that does something before you gain it when you buy it, it would not be affected by Inheritance.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2016, 04:08:23 pm »
+1

Estates are Estates until they enter your possession, i.e. gains. If there is ever a card that does something before you gain it when you buy it, it would not be affected by Inheritance.

Isn't this thread literally saying exactly the opposite?  The Estate is yours when you buy it, which happens before you gain it.  The effect of Port happens on-buy, which is before you gain it.
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Seprix

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2016, 04:09:32 pm »
0

Estates are Estates until they enter your possession, i.e. gains. If there is ever a card that does something before you gain it when you buy it, it would not be affected by Inheritance.

Isn't this thread literally saying exactly the opposite?  The Estate is yours when you buy it, which happens before you gain it.  The effect of Port happens on-buy, which is before you gain it.

Oh, right. That is true.
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2016, 04:14:14 pm »
+4

That's not why it seems weird.  It seems weird because it's not intuitively obvious that that Estate is yours at the time you gain it.  The situation with Nomad Camp and Port are exactly the same level of weirdness to me.  Highway isn't weird because it is very obviously yours while it is in play.
I felt that people would find when-buy working with Inheritance to be more intuitive than it not working.
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Petrovic

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2016, 09:16:24 am »
+1

When I played on MF last night I inherited Fortress. Whenever Swindler hit my Inherited Fortress it stayed in the trash instead of going to my hand. Is this a mistake by MF or is this the correct interpretationof the rules? Seems like I have seen some discussion somewhere about when an inherited Estate is trashed but I can't remember the conclusion.
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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 09:22:56 am »
0

When I played on MF last night I inherited Fortress. Whenever Swindler hit my Inherited Fortress it stayed in the trash instead of going to my hand. Is this a mistake by MF or is this the correct interpretationof the rules? Seems like I have seen some discussion somewhere about when an inherited Estate is trashed but I can't remember the conclusion.

Mistake. Go yell at MF.
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 09:23:27 am »
0

When I played on MF last night I inherited Fortress. Whenever Swindler hit my Inherited Fortress it stayed in the trash instead of going to my hand. Is this a mistake by MF or is this the correct interpretationof the rules? Seems like I have seen some discussion somewhere about when an inherited Estate is trashed but I can't remember the conclusion.
You trashed a Fortress, so it returns to your hand, even though briefly it's not a Fortress, and I think the rulebook does not include Fortress's ability on its list of what constitutes "yours" (though it does become yours again).
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Petrovic

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 09:40:58 am »
0

Thanks for the prompt replies. I will find the game log and file a bug report with MF tonight. Along with the game last week where my Summoned Nomad Camps kept getting put on top of my deck instead of being set aside to be called at the start of my turn.
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Davio

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 03:54:56 am »
0

That's not why it seems weird.  It seems weird because it's not intuitively obvious that that Estate is yours at the time you gain it.  The situation with Nomad Camp and Port are exactly the same level of weirdness to me.  Highway isn't weird because it is very obviously yours while it is in play.
Well, as I learned, the triggers for when-gain and when-buy actually happen (immediately) after gaining and buying, not during.

So Port's "when you buy this" is checked after you bought the Estate-Port.
At that time, the Estate-Port is yours (you bought it), so you gain "another" Port.
The "another" isn't strict enough to make this fail. You try to do as much as you can, so you grab a Port, it's just not "another" Port.
You could be very strict about your interpretation and rule you can't gain "another" thing, if you didn't gain the first "thing", but I think Donald's right about calling it this way.

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pedroluchini

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 04:17:22 am »
+8

You could be very strict about your interpretation and rule you can't gain "another" thing, if you didn't gain the first "thing", but I think Donald's right about calling it this way.

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 08:15:18 am »
+1

You could be very strict about your interpretation and rule you can't gain "another" thing, if you didn't gain the first "thing", but I think Donald's right about calling it this way.

Mad Hatter: Would you like a little more tea?
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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2016, 09:54:13 am »
0

Am I wrong about the following? I can buy Noble Brigand, have the on-buy clause take place, then reveal Trader to gain Silver rather than Noble Brigand. This is a rare edge case that's totally strategically useful, so I hope it's right.

If so, it seems counterintuitive that Inherited cards gain on-buy abilities. If I inherit NB, can I buy an Estate, attack, and then reveal Trader to gain a silver instead? There is something bizarre about an estate being mine, even though when I tried to gain it I gained something else instead.
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2016, 10:03:48 am »
+6

Am I wrong about the following? I can buy Noble Brigand, have the on-buy clause take place, then reveal Trader to gain Silver rather than Noble Brigand. This is a rare edge case that's totally strategically useful, so I hope it's right.
Good news, it is.

If so, it seems counterintuitive that Inherited cards gain on-buy abilities. If I inherit NB, can I buy an Estate, attack, and then reveal Trader to gain a silver instead? There is something bizarre about an estate being mine, even though when I tried to gain it I gained something else instead.
Bad news, I cannot always get everything to be intuitive, especially if I make cards like Trader and Inheritance.
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