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Author Topic: Curse Tokens  (Read 3184 times)

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Nflickner

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Curse Tokens
« on: June 16, 2016, 02:29:55 am »
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I'm sure this has probably been mentioned before, but would curse tokens work?  I'm thinking about making some events or kingdom cards that use them.  I heard that the new VP tokens in Empires are kind of different from the old ones from Prosperity, so I have an idea to paint the old Prosperity ones purple maybe to use as curse tokens :) 

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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2016, 02:51:38 am »
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First you should explain what you mean by Curse tokens. Because it sounds a lot like Embargo tokens.
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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 02:54:13 am »
+7

If you mean tokens that give you -1 VP, why not just hand out a regular +1 VP token to everyone else instead?
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Nflickner

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 09:43:48 am »
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If you mean tokens that give you -1 VP, why not just hand out a regular +1 VP token to everyone else instead?
Yes-- the opposite of VP tokens.  And I also thought about that--that you could just give the opposite in VP tokens.  One of the reasons why they would be different is the flavor--you could make cards that are attacks with these that would be harder to make into attacks if just using VP tokens.

I'm also thinking a Landmark that gave you curse tokens in "reward" for certain actions might have a similar flavor to Defiled Shrine but offer different possibilities.   
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 09:49:18 am by Nflickner »
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Marcory

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2016, 11:03:48 am »
+3

Problem is, most of the things you can do with Curse tokens you can also do with VP tokens.

For example, an Evil Monument that gives you and gives a Curse token to everyone else is not really any different than a normal Monument.

I think that if you're looking for tokens, a better option is to create tokens that add a new strategic space to the game, like the Trade tokens in Last Footnote's Enterprise fan expansion. (Particularly considering that LF has now designed several published Dominion cards, and is credited as "Lead Playtester" for Empires.)
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ConMan

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2016, 09:17:07 pm »
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It's definitely discussed in the sticky thread at the top of this board. The short answer is that while there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the idea, actually finding a balanced use for them is difficult. Although the guide was written well before Empires, so things like Events and Landmarks could change things.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2016, 09:32:27 pm »
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It's definitely discussed in the sticky thread at the top of this board. The short answer is that while there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the idea, actually finding a balanced use for them is difficult. Although the guide was written well before Empires, so things like Events and Landmarks could change things.

Nah, the discussion in that post is more about the use of a VP penalty to balance powerful cards, which usually won't work very well. Curse tokens in a general sense should be fine, but they're just too similar to VP tokens to be of much interest.
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ConMan

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 10:40:02 pm »
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True. It relates a bit to Ritual, though, that specifically uses the "Gain a Curse. If you do, <stuff>" as discussed in that section.

In a way, I like that Curses are a penalty that are both limited and manageable in the presence of suitable trashing. Does having the potential to gain unlimited Curse tokens, that you presumably can't get rid of, do anything interesting to the game that VP tokens and Curse cards don't? It's hard to say, but I agree that it's more interesting to come up with a component that opens up an entirely new design space.
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Marcory

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2016, 11:06:41 pm »
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There's still room for interacting with VP tokens anyway. Right now, we don't have a way to steal VP tokens, multiply a VP token gain (other than by Throning the Action card that gives them in the first place), block someone from gaining VP tokens (but that would have to be worded in a non-political way). or a card that interacts with your VP token mat (i.e., "For each X VP on your VP token mat, gain X bonus). These could all potentially be more interesting than a Curse token.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2016, 11:19:33 pm »
+1

There's still room for interacting with VP tokens anyway. Right now, we don't have a way to steal VP tokens, multiply a VP token gain (other than by Throning the Action card that gives them in the first place), block someone from gaining VP tokens (but that would have to be worded in a non-political way). or a card that interacts with your VP token mat (i.e., "For each X VP on your VP token mat, gain X bonus). These could all potentially be more interesting than a Curse token.

Steal VP tokens is mostly the same as gaining 2 VP tokens. Except with weird player number balancing issues.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2016, 11:46:21 pm »
+1

I agree that it would be hard to come up with a use for curse tokens that wouldn't work just as well using VP tokens.

See also:
Quote
Iconoclast
$4 cost - Action - Attack
+$1
+1
Each other player removes a from their mat. If they have no tokens to remove, they gain a curse.
-
Setup: Each player starts with 1 token per player in the game.
by General Ramos
General Ramos could've introduced curse tokens for this card, but I think it's interesting & good for the card that as long as you have VP tokens, the attack is weak (no junk card), but then if you run out of tokens you could start getting junk cards. If the card tried to use curse tokens instead of curse cards, then it may as well be this:
Quote
Boring 2nd Monument
$4 cost - Action
+$1
+2
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 11:48:29 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2016, 11:58:15 pm »
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True. It relates a bit to Ritual, though, that specifically uses the "Gain a Curse. If you do, <stuff>" as discussed in that section.

Yeah, but that section is more positive about Ritual'-style penalties though.  A one-time penalty is probably a poor way of balancing, but it may work well to have a penalty for each use of a card, so that the penalty is directly tied to the benefit you get out of it.  As an Event, Ritual is like that too.
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Abel_K

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2016, 01:27:42 pm »
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A fan extension already exists with this system (the negative VP are Sins !!) : see Salvation, from W. Baggins  (http://www.geekdo.com/image/804956/salvation-fan-expansion-for-dominion). I began to try this some month ago, and I like it, even if, of course, I can change details !!! and I am far from testing all (not enough time....). But I really find it fine...
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Seprix

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2016, 03:12:40 pm »
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an Evil Monument that gives you and gives a Curse token to everyone else is not really any different than a normal Monument.

Evil Monument is incredibly hilarious.
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Asper

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Re: Curse Tokens
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2016, 04:57:20 pm »
+2

Shameless self-advertisement, but i did the "VP tokens as Curse tokens" over a year ago. It started with a lame card like this



and ultimately lead to this (hopefully) less lame card:

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