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[Beyond Awesome]

The most well-known game reviewer shares his thoughts on Empires. What do you guys think? https://youtube.com/watch?v=hkh-4quO3uc

[GendoIkari]

So how do you pronounce "Villa"? I've been saying it as soft "L" sounds, like in "Vanilla"... but I know that sometimes "LL" is pronounced "Y" like Tom did.

[jsh357]

I will never understand this "there aren't enough Potions/debt cards to make them interesting" criticism, but at least it left him wanting more? The "Dominion jumped the shark" comment is probably a conclusion only a board game enthusiast can come to; from someone who just/primarily plays Dominion it's such a weird perspective.

Pretty fair review otherwise for the most part, I thought. It is a trickier expansion than some, but has a lot of fascinating cards. I also agree that more Debt cards might have been nice, though I think what we have is a good amount too. I prefer when Tom does these solo to when he has his friends spitballing with him.

[GendoIkari]

I thought it was a fair review as a whole. One thing problem Dominion is always going to hit is that it wants to both be good when playing just a single expansion, and also be good when randomly choosing from all sets. If you weren't worried about the former, for example, then you could have a set that was just all Debt cards; that sort of thing.

[Titandrake]

idk, when I heard about split piles I thought Dominion jumped the shark too. A lot of the Gathering cards felt the same way to me because of how complicated the VP dealing process can be - some of the mechanics feel a bit fiddly. When cards don't have one core idea, they turn into a big ball of mechanics you have to explicitly memorize, and it feels like there are more cards like that in this set.

[eHalcyon]

So how do you pronounce "Villa"? I've been saying it as soft "L" sounds, like in "Vanilla"... but I know that sometimes "LL" is pronounced "Y" like Tom did.

I'm pretty sure it should be a regular English "L" sound.  "LL" as a "Y" sound is Spanish, and Villa isn't from Spanish.

I will never understand this "there aren't enough Potions/debt cards to make them interesting" criticism, but at least it left him wanting more?

In the context that Tom said it, I think it's the sentiment that, hey, here's something really cool... but if you play full random, you're rarely going to see it, and that's disappointing.  I think that's fair, but it's also easy to fix -- don't do full random.

But when people say this in general about Potion cards, they're actually saying it negatively and it comes from a lack of skill in the game.  The complaint is that Potion-cost cards are so uncommon in full random that you rarely see more than one on the same board, and in that case Potion isn't worth buying at all so the Potion-cost card is just a dead slot in the kingdom!  This is a really common misconception and tends to get repeated enough (e.g. whenever a player asks, "what expansion should I get next?" on reddit or BGG) that some players just assume it is true and don't bother testing it out themselves.  Alchemy cards are severely underestimated.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't think Dominion has jumped the shark. Empires seem one of the best designed expansions ever. I might be wrong though. Some cards seem complex, but I still feel Adventures was just as complex if not more complex. But, hey, I'm biased as is most people on these forums.

As far as there not being enough Debt cards, we get 12 cards total including Events/Landmarks that make use of Debt. Guilds only gave us 4 cards that gave coin tokens, so I'm not really complaining. I would like to see more split piles though. And, who knows, since Split Piles don't require extra components, we may just end up getting more.

[werothegreat]

"Excellent... for experienced Dominion players."

I actually played the first Empires only set (without the Landmark) with two friends who've played Dominion a few times, though intermittently, and one who had never played before, or even heard the term "deckbuilder" before.  I was nervous at first, but everyone had a lot of fun, and the newbie seemed to pick up on what was going on pretty quickly.

[LastFootnote]

Guilds only gave us 4 cards that gave coin tokens, so I'm not really complaining.

Five! Candlestick Maker, Plaza, Baker, Butcher, and Merchant Guild. There are only 4 overpay cards, though.

[LastFootnote]

I don't really understand how split piles are "fiddly". It's like the simplest mechanic in the expansion. Simpler than Debt and even Durations. Is it somehow fiddly to make sure the stack is ordered correctly?

[werothegreat]

Guilds only gave us 4 cards that gave coin tokens, so I'm not really complaining.

Five! Candlestick Maker, Plaza, Baker, Butcher, and Merchant Guild. There are only 4 overpay cards, though.

I only complain about there only being 3 Looters (and only 2 of them Attacks!) because it means that strategy involving Ruins (like that Sacrifice is a good counter to Cultist/Marauder) becomes less and less relevant as time progresses.  We've got this huge, big-ass pile of basic cards, and they're only put out on the table for 3 cards.

[Kirian]

I don't really understand how split piles are "fiddly". It's like the simplest mechanic in the expansion. Simpler than Debt and even Durations. Is it somehow fiddly to make sure the stack is ordered correctly?

I assume he meant "fiddly" in terms of strategy.  Like, am I going to have to buy all the top cards by myself?  If I do, will my opponent(s) snatch up the better cards underneath?  If they let me take the five top cards, will it screw them over, and so we'll all be fighting over those cards?  Does a 2/3 split matter as much as, say, a 6-4 Curse or Minion split?

The Gathering cards have similar strategy issues.  I see this as a good thing, but some people might not, I guess?

[Accatitippi]

What happened to the part where you see all the components falling down on the table? 

[Davio]

I actually quite liked his review.

[Fragasnap]

I don't really understand how split piles are "fiddly". It's like the simplest mechanic in the expansion. Simpler than Debt and even Durations. Is it somehow fiddly to make sure the stack is ordered correctly?

I would guess that because a split pile contains multiple different cards, players have to move the cards from the top of the split pile to read the other card in the pile. Most players are not able to immediately assimilate card information like we Dominion enthusiasts, so many more passive players will likely find themselves constantly reaching into a split pile to read what a covered card does.

[Roadrunner7671]

"Dominion jumped the shark" 

I had this thought yesterday. I don't think it has, but I do think it's possible.

[Accatitippi]

"Dominion jumped the shark" 

I had this thought yesterday. I don't think it has, but I do think it's possible.

I think a more useful question would be: does this expansion have the quality we've grown to expect from Dominion, and does it add enough different stuff to give interesting new experiences?

Answered that, each of us can individually decide when we're tired of Dominion.

[Roadrunner7671]

"Dominion jumped the shark" 

I had this thought yesterday. I don't think it has, but I do think it's possible.

I think a more useful question would be: does this expansion have the quality we've grown to expect from Dominion, and does it add enough different stuff to give interesting new experiences?

Answered that, each of us can individually decide when we're tired of Dominion.

I'm by no means tired of Dominion. I know Donald isn't in it for the money, and I think until that happens, Dominion won't jump the shark. Maybe when we see a card that you throw at the table...

[DG]

How geeky is it to review a review of a board game?

[Burning Skull]

How geeky is it to review a review of a board game?

We should review that post.

[werothegreat]

How geeky is it to review a review of a board game?

We should review that post.

Smoky, with a hint of nutmeg.

[SuperHans]

The phrase "jumped the shark" simply makes no sense in this context. It makes sense applied to TV shows and maybe books or other similar serial mediums, but expansions for a board game? Not following the analogy here.

Each expansion has always brought a new concept to the game. This is nothing unique to Empires. Duration cards. Mats. Potions. VP tokens. Colonies. On buy effects. Non-suppy cards. Ruins. Shepters. Coin tokens. Overpay. Reserve cards. Traveler cards. Events. And the list goes on.

Empires adds split piles, debt, and landmarks. That has finally crossed the line and is too gimmicky or fiddly? This is such a bizarre criticism for a game that just released its tenth expansion. The fact that the game continues to push the boundaries of the game and find new ways to keep the game fresh and balanced is remarkable for a game that has released 10 expansions.

With that said, having played a few games in person, split piles and debt are very easy to implement. Much easier than I expected. Landmarks can require more tracking, but is that a bad thing? If it is, don't play with them every game (or at all). If you're playing online, well the system will do most of the heavy lifting for you.

[allanfieldhouse]

The phrase "jumped the shark" simply makes no sense in this context.

It totally makes sense to ask the question in this context. Most of your post consists of examples of why Dominion HASN'T jumped the shark.

If Donald ever runs out of good ideas but continues to release sets, then people would agree that the game had jumped the shark. Luckily, he seems to be filled with good ideas and willing to stop publishing when he runs out.

[SuperHans]

The phrase "jumped the shark" simply makes no sense in this context.

If Donald ever runs out of good ideas but continues to release sets, then people would agree that the game had jumped the shark.

Running out of ideas, or a mere decline in quality, is not "jumping the shark."

However, the phrase has been stretched far beyond its original meaning over time, so I'll let it go. Obviously I understand what Tom was driving at and I disagree with his reasoning.

[Witherweaver]

I don't really understand how split piles are "fiddly". It's like the simplest mechanic in the expansion. Simpler than Debt and even Durations. Is it somehow fiddly to make sure the stack is ordered correctly?

I assume he meant "fiddly" in terms of strategy.  Like, am I going to have to buy all the top cards by myself?  If I do, will my opponent(s) snatch up the better cards underneath?  If they let me take the five top cards, will it screw them over, and so we'll all be fighting over those cards?  Does a 2/3 split matter as much as, say, a 6-4 Curse or Minion split?

The Gathering cards have similar strategy issues.  I see this as a good thing, but some people might not, I guess?

Man, a simple mechanic that gives rise to complex strategy or difficult decisions is exactly what makes a well designed game/sport/activity/whatever, I think.