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Author Topic: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality  (Read 18547 times)

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brokoli

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2016, 06:40:07 pm »
+1

Just had my first hireling lesson :
Familiar game. Curse split : 8-2 in my favor. I was playing a Bazaar-Margrave engine, with one moneylender and a few storerooms. My opponent just took as much hirelings as he could, a few bazaar and storerooms too.
My engine was very slow (and poorly played as well), he had enough time to have four hirelings at the beginning of each turn, and storeroom was of course absolutely amazing for him. He crushed me.

From my earlier experience I thought hireling was weak because in good engine deck, by the time it gets in play you can just buy a lot of cards and play them each turn, sometimes ending up drawing your deck. But now I realize that in deck with no fast thinning and/or junk, hireling can be very powerful.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2016, 06:41:46 pm »
0

It feels the correct lesson that hireling + sloggish + discard for benedit = good?
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Seprix

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2016, 07:04:21 pm »
0

The power of an extra card in hand is very strong. It is so much more often more powerful than gold.
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Limetime

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2016, 10:42:36 pm »
+2

The power of an extra card in hand is very strong. It is so much more often more powerful than gold.
But then again gold is about as bad as curse.
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Seprix

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2016, 11:02:58 pm »
0

The power of an extra card in hand is very strong. It is so much more often more powerful than gold.
But then again gold is about as bad as curse.

You're in the SCSN cult!?
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Limetime

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2016, 11:10:32 pm »
+1

The power of an extra card in hand is very strong. It is so much more often more powerful than gold.
But then again gold is about as bad as curse.

You're in the SCSN cult!?
It is the truth.
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Chris is me

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2016, 08:52:39 am »
+3

The power of an extra card in hand is very strong. It is so much more often more powerful than gold.
But then again gold is about as bad as curse.

You're in the SCSN cult!?
It is the truth.

I'm at the point where I genuinely think in the majority of cases, Gold is worse than Silver.

I'll defend this point later when I have time (at work?), but for now I wanted to make the sweeping generalization to see how people react.
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Seprix

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2016, 10:35:14 am »
+2

I'm at the point where I genuinely think in the majority of cases, Gold is worse than Silver.

I'll defend this point later when I have time (at work?), but for now I wanted to make the sweeping generalization to see how people react.

I am not going to take your case seriously until you actually present it.
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Chris is me

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2016, 10:49:03 am »
0

I'm at the point where I genuinely think in the majority of cases, Gold is worse than Silver.

I'll defend this point later when I have time (at work?), but for now I wanted to make the sweeping generalization to see how people react.

I am not going to take your case seriously until you actually present it.

The short version:
- There's a lot more ways to gain Silver (low $ hands, Silver gainers, Workshop variants, Delve)
- Silver does not compete at cost with most powerful engine components ($5s) and thus is easier to obtain as part of your payload while building
- Gold only reduces the number of dead cards you have to draw by 33% versus Silver. Assume an all Treasure engine payload for a second - 8 Silvers versus 6 Golds to hit $16 - many boards can tolerate drawing 2 extra cards in exchange for getting your $5s sooner or not using a buy on Golds

Times when this isn't true:
- Many BM variants (discard attack, etc)
- Gold-gainers (duh)
- When you value high cost cards for some reason

But generally, I like Silver more, and prefer to avoid both if I can in an engine.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2016, 10:52:58 am »
+3

I'll defend this point later when I have time (at work?), but for now I wanted to make the sweeping generalization to see how people react.

Well at least you're being upfront about trolling us? I'm not sure that makes you any less of a troll, though.
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Chris is me

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2016, 10:54:22 am »
+1

I'll defend this point later when I have time (at work?), but for now I wanted to make the sweeping generalization to see how people react.

Well at least you're being upfront about trolling us? I'm not sure that makes you any less of a troll, though.

Well I posted some words above to clarify.

I was on my way out the door for work, and I was really curious if the reaction would be more "HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT?" versus "Actually I kind of get that".
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Seprix

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2016, 11:06:26 am »
0

The short version:
- There's a lot more ways to gain Silver (low $ hands, Silver gainers, Workshop variants, Delve)

There are also tons of ways to gain Gold. Soothsayer (ew), Wedding, Windfall, Governor, etc. Empires is the crazy Gold gaining expansion. Anyways, it is easier to gain Silver simply because of its price. It is more economical to obtain 2 Silvers over a Gold ($4 vs $3), but at the price an extra buy and one extra potential dead card in hand.

Quote
- Silver does not compete at cost with most powerful engine components ($5s) and thus is easier to obtain as part of your payload while building

Yes. This is not a consequence of Gold being bad, but a consequence of pricing.

Quote
- Gold only reduces the number of dead cards you have to draw by 33% versus Silver. Assume an all Treasure engine payload for a second - 8 Silvers versus 6 Golds to hit $16 - many boards can tolerate drawing 2 extra cards in exchange for getting your $5s sooner or not using a buy on Golds

Yes, in this one case that is true.

Quote
Times when this isn't true:
- Many BM variants (discard attack, etc)
- Gold-gainers (duh)
- When you value high cost cards for some reason

Those are a lot of times. Also consider this:
-When there is no +buy or gaining

Quote
But generally, I like Silver more, and prefer to avoid both if I can in an engine.

I avoid gaining Silver and Gold unless it is painfully obvious I will not be "gaining cards"/"getting to a price point" any faster with another option. As bad as Gold and Silver can be, they are still potential non-terminal payload.
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singletee

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2016, 11:07:59 am »
+5

I'm at the point where I genuinely think in the majority of cases, Gold is worse than Silver.

I'll defend this point later when I have time (at work?), but for now I wanted to make the sweeping generalization to see how people react.

If you are saying "Silver is a better $3 card than Gold is a $6 card," then I agree. Gold is like the third-worst $6+ card, and worse than about half the $5s.

I'd also agree with "Silver has a bigger impact on the game than Gold."

ConMan

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2016, 07:28:16 pm »
+1

I'd probably also agree with a claim along the lines of "In many kingdoms with alt-VP, you're more likely to skip Gold than Silver".
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tailred

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2016, 09:53:27 pm »
+1

Yes. This is not a consequence of Gold being bad, but a consequence of pricing.

Uh, pricing is a pretty huge part of judging the badness of a card, isn't it? (Adventurer says hi)
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Chris is me

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2016, 10:49:57 pm »
0

Yes. This is not a consequence of Gold being bad, but a consequence of pricing.

Uh, pricing is a pretty huge part of judging the badness of a card, isn't it? (Adventurer says hi)

Literally my whole argument about Gold being worse than Silver is predicated on limited accessibility and scarcity of $5+ buys. Of course the cost matters. You can't say cost isn't part of the strength of a card.
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Seprix

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2016, 09:15:35 pm »
0

Gold is not worse than Silver. Gold is not as useful as Silver, but it is not worse.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2016, 09:17:18 pm »
0

Some might argue that Gold is #StrictlyBetter

eHalcyon

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2016, 09:33:04 pm »
+2

Some might argue that Gold is #StrictlyBetter

#ignoringcosts #thuglife
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Seprix

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2016, 09:35:56 pm »
0

Platinum is clearly worse, it costs $9! Who has time for $9!?
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Awaclus

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Re: Adventures: first impressions vs. reality
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2016, 11:08:20 am »
+6

Platinum is clearly worse, it costs $9! Who has time for $9!?

$9! is a lot of money indeed.
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