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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)  (Read 7070 times)

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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2016, 07:00:01 pm »
+1

A few extra bucks is really good though?? I'm just curious about it because the consensus in comments so far is that it's too strong, but you're saying it's weak instead.  It's an interesting perspective that I'm not fully understanding because of how quickly you're putting it down.

Well, Baron is a lot of bucks early... But you may be right that i'm underestimating it. Maybe i'm even totally wrong. Huh, let's see... At the start, it's really, really good, like a better Lab. On the other hand, Baron also is a lot better than Harvest or Wine Merchant at the start, too. So, is Baron better or worse than this card later on? Better than several weak $5s if it hits vs Necropolis/Village/Lost City/... I guess the maximum effect is a lot better, especially as the coins you get are added to your payload. So, i understand the point, and it seems my first perception was wrong.

Fortress is a village (always useful) and is untrashable (needs trasher to be useful).  Tunnel is VP (always useful) and has a discard reaction (needs discarder to be useful).  Collector is a handsize-reducer with built-in draw-to-X (always useful) and it lets other players discard a card (needs draw-to-X, Tunnel, Minion, maybe some other things to be useful).

So if you're focusing on the niche part only, Collector has an advantage over both Fortress and Tunnel in that the board automatically contains something that works with it.  If you're going to complain about the niche-ness of Collector's thing, I think you should be even more miffed about Fortress and Tunnel.  Or are you saying that the main part of it isn't impactful enough on its own?  It sounds useful to me.
It's not about usefulness, just about the fact that the card has an effect that tells other players to buy the card (most of the time). If two players have the card, they are helping each other, so you need to go for it yourself to not fall behind with these guys who are pushing each other forward. I guess that's something i don't like. It just feels like it tries to shove itself into my face, shouting "They got me, get me too!". It's a bit like the reverse of Bishop or Vault - both are worse if you used another player's effect, which actively pushes players into different directions. This does the opposite and pulls the players in a mirror. Like Alice.
And, well, it feels a bit obvious in it's approach to make the player interaction relevant.

As the other player, you know the upper number and whether the Consortium player drew.  If they did not draw, you can be reasonably sure that the draw will be followed by "discard down to 3" so you can weigh your options accordingly.  Choosing to follow is trickier because you expose yourself to the discard, but it still shouldn't sting that much because it's bounded.  Best 3 of 8 cards is a pretty good deal compared to your starting 5.  I don't think it's really a "screw yourself over" kind of decision.

Well, i'm not sure that best 3 of 8 is really better than random 5 of 8. How good need those 3 to be? It just feels like it could be very frustrating.

eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2016, 08:57:32 pm »
0

Bronze Worker -- I think it's also a lot easier to line up with Copper than with Estate.

Collector -- OK, that's fair.  I guess my rebuttal would be, is it a big enough "push" to be of concern?  Could this even be a Prosperity-ish non-attack interaction?  City is similar in that, if 2+ other players are pursuing it, you have a much bigger incentive to join in the game as well or be left behind.

Consortium -- Well, you know your random 5 from the start, so you have to decide whether the benefit of +3 cards is worth the risk of potentially discarding down to 3 after.  I can see frustration, but I also see player engagement in the back-and-forth "dialogue".  I guess this is more interaction that most Dominion cards provide -- the Consortium player makes a choice, others respond, then the Consortium responds once more.  Cards like Bishop and Vault create only a single point of interaction, and maybe you prefer that.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2016, 11:05:46 pm »
0

Could this even be a Prosperity-ish non-attack interaction?
Yes, of course it is. I'm just not convinced it makes the game more interesting. And the "multiplayer-mandatoryness" is in fact something i dislike about City.

Cards like Bishop and Vault create only a single point of interaction, and maybe you prefer that.
It would say the card creates a lot to guess about, with very little chance to know what's the right decision (luck, lack of knowledge what others will do), and several people (in order) have to make choices. Do i draw, how much, do you draw, do i discard, to what, what do you discard...

eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2016, 12:31:45 pm »
0

Could this even be a Prosperity-ish non-attack interaction?
Yes, of course it is. I'm just not convinced it makes the game more interesting. And the "multiplayer-mandatoryness" is in fact something i dislike about City.

Cards like Bishop and Vault create only a single point of interaction, and maybe you prefer that.
It would say the card creates a lot to guess about, with very little chance to know what's the right decision (luck, lack of knowledge what others will do), and several people (in order) have to make choices. Do i draw, how much, do you draw, do i discard, to what, what do you discard...

Fair enough for both, though I think the Consortium isn't so much guesswork and luck as it is tactical choice.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2016, 05:55:04 pm »
+3

Preliminary Results:

Collector - 13
Consortium - 11
Divdends - 11
Proliferate - 11
Investor - 10
Minister - 10

Metropolis - 9
Trout Stream - 9
Bronze Worker - 8
Trinket - 8
Voucher - 8
Exchequer - 7
Party Time - 7
Prospector - 7
Wealthy Village - 7
Entourage - 6
Grand Canal - 6
Heirloom - 6
Share - 2
Desert City - 1
Piggy Bank - 1
Stampede - 0
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2016, 05:55:57 pm »
0

Note that there are six finalists, due to a tie for fifth in the preliminary round.

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

Submit your votes to me via this forum's messaging system. To vote, give each card a score from 0 to 10. (It is recommended, but not required, that you give at least one card a 0 and at least one card a 10, to maximize your voting input.) The winner will be the card with the highest sum. Feel free to discuss the cards (but not your scores) in this thread.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2016, 06:08:37 pm »
0

Preliminary Results:

Collector - 13
Consortium - 11
Divdends - 11
Proliferate - 11
Investor - 10
Minister - 10

Metropolis - 9
Trout Stream - 9
Bronze Worker - 8
Trinket - 8
Voucher - 8
Exchequer - 7
Party Time - 7
Prospector - 7
Wealthy Village - 7
Entourage - 6
Grand Canal - 6
Heirloom - 6
Share - 2
Desert City - 1
Piggy Bank - 1
Stampede - 0
Dangit, trinket was 2 votes off. I guess for my first ever entry I didn't do too bad.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2016, 06:10:12 pm »
0

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2016, 06:31:52 pm »
+1

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
It's unique, it's cool, and it's not really finnicky and broken.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2016, 06:40:34 pm »
0

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
It's unique, it's cool, and it's not really finnicky and broken.

I think the super fast pile depletion might be broken.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2016, 06:41:18 pm »
0

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
It's unique, it's cool, and it's not really finnicky and broken.

I think the super fast pile depletion might be broken.

That's sort of my feeling too.
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math

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2016, 08:10:17 pm »
0

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

I really like this card.  I tend to like draw-to-X cards in general, and this one seems to be balanced and interesting.  Letting the opponent discard opens up interesting interactions, especially if you play multiples, but it isn't good enough for your opponent to make it underpowered.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

I'm not a fan of this card; it seems a bit too expensive for what it does, and I think it would bring a bit too much AP with not enough benefit to make it worth it.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

I agree with those who say this seems a bit powerful.  Also, we already had a Treasure as the winner of the last contest, and I'd like to see something different.  I like the card idea, though.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

I like this card.  It seems pretty balanced and useful in general.  It compares well (but not too well) with Bank if you've drawn your deck, and it's like a Bank plus Cellar if you haven't, but the fact that it can only discard Treasures keeps it from being overpowered.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

This seems interesting, but I still think it's a bit weak.  You need to play 4 in a turn to gain Provinces, and if you use it for engine parts your opponents get a bonus that stacks very well for them.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

This seems okay, but I don't really like how quickly it empties multiple piles, and I don't like having to gain unwanted cards with my good ones either.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 08:17:37 pm by math »
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Seprix

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2016, 08:20:15 pm »
0

Time to look at these cards. I already submitted my vote to Mith, and I think only two cards here deserve the win. The others are okay to pretty not cool.

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

I like this one for sure. This should win.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

I didn't like this one, then I liked it. Now I don't like it. It's too wonky.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

This is really good. I do like this one. If Collector doesn't win, this could instead.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

This is way too good for $5.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

I don't really think I like this one. Yes, you get to gain a $5 for free with each play, but I just am not high on this one. I mean, it's okay. It just feels safe.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

This is too wonky and with crazy piling. There's no real theme to this other than gain all the cards.
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2016, 09:49:45 pm »
+3

I'm not sure how much Proliferate really empties piles:

-It costs $7 so you only get it mid-game.
-Every time you play it, you make your deck 4 cards bigger, so you see proliferate less often
-You can get at most one card from each pile.
-Usually that $6 card is a gold, there are lots of $5s to choose from, and the $3s and $4s that you want a lot of are the ones that are already in danger of piling.

I suspect that Proliferate empties piles about as much as other gainers, or cursers for that matter.  And probably less than Stonemason.  Besides which, rushes are fun.

Of course, this all depends on Proliferate's power level, which I'm having difficulty assessing.  If Proliferate is strong, I could imagine everyone going for it and using it to gain Duchies.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2016, 10:11:25 pm »
+1

Some boards, you end up getting Scouts for the $4 cost on Proliferate. Anyway, I don't agree that it empties piles too quickly. I'm pretty sure stonemason is better at that.

Also, Minister should cost $5, maybe even $4.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2016, 10:20:22 pm »
+1

Some boards, you end up getting Scouts for the $4 cost on Proliferate. Anyway, I don't agree that it empties piles too quickly. I'm pretty sure stonemason is better at that.

Also, Minister should cost $5, maybe even $4.
Man, I love Proliferate!
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2016, 10:21:50 pm »
0

I'm not saying Proliferate is too strong, so the fact that it sometims gains Scouts isn't really relevant.  But it gains cards 4x faster than most other gainers.  Only gaining one card from each pile doesn't matter because we're talking about 3-pile endings, so Proliferate is covering all three at once.  $6 is usually Gold so it's less likely to empty, but the $3s, $4s and $5s will be going down fast.  If they are already in danger of piling, then Proliferate just turns it up to 11.  Stonemason is mostly good at emptying its own pile but Proliferate is taking down three others.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2016, 10:48:44 pm »
0

I don't like having to gain unwanted cards with my good ones either.

I think this is one of the coolest things about the card.  It makes you play with cards you might not normally get and you have to figure out how to make use of them.

Also I agree that people are a lot more concerned about the piling issue than they should be.  Like I definitely don't think it's worse than Stonemason there.

What I love about Proliferate is that it's so simple, makes use of only very basic mechanics, but accomplishes something that hasn't been done yet.  It will play out in a totally different way from almost any other existing card.  And it's super Prosperity, because it's just a huge gainer, like how King's Court is a huge throne room and Forge is a huge trasher and Expand is a huge remodeler.

I'm not saying Proliferate is too strong, so the fact that it sometims gains Scouts isn't really relevant.  But it gains cards 4x faster than most other gainers.  Only gaining one card from each pile doesn't matter because we're talking about 3-pile endings, so Proliferate is covering all three at once.  $6 is usually Gold so it's less likely to empty, but the $3s, $4s and $5s will be going down fast.  If they are already in danger of piling, then Proliferate just turns it up to 11.  Stonemason is mostly good at emptying its own pile but Proliferate is taking down three others.

Proliferate's price makes a huge difference.  It gains four cards at a time, whereas Stonemason gains only two, plus its on-buy.  But you probably don't get more than one Proliferate, whereas you often get several Stonemasons without even trying.  Plus Stonemason pushes you to get lots of cards even when you're not thrilled about playing Stonemason or having it in your deck.  And it's piling issues are bigger because it gives you a lot of control over when it happens.  Anyone can empty piles whenever they want because Stonemason gains so much stuff even with its on-buy.  Proliferate only gains stuff on play, and since your deck is now huge, you don't really know when you're going to be able to do it, so you might not be able to threaten piles when you want to.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2016, 12:05:21 am »
0

I don't like having to gain unwanted cards with my good ones either.

I think this is one of the coolest things about the card.  It makes you play with cards you might not normally get and you have to figure out how to make use of them.

Also I agree that people are a lot more concerned about the piling issue than they should be.  Like I definitely don't think it's worse than Stonemason there.

What I love about Proliferate is that it's so simple, makes use of only very basic mechanics, but accomplishes something that hasn't been done yet.  It will play out in a totally different way from almost any other existing card.  And it's super Prosperity, because it's just a huge gainer, like how King's Court is a huge throne room and Forge is a huge trasher and Expand is a huge remodeler.

I'm not saying Proliferate is too strong, so the fact that it sometims gains Scouts isn't really relevant.  But it gains cards 4x faster than most other gainers.  Only gaining one card from each pile doesn't matter because we're talking about 3-pile endings, so Proliferate is covering all three at once.  $6 is usually Gold so it's less likely to empty, but the $3s, $4s and $5s will be going down fast.  If they are already in danger of piling, then Proliferate just turns it up to 11.  Stonemason is mostly good at emptying its own pile but Proliferate is taking down three others.

Proliferate's price makes a huge difference.  It gains four cards at a time, whereas Stonemason gains only two, plus its on-buy.  But you probably don't get more than one Proliferate, whereas you often get several Stonemasons without even trying.  Plus Stonemason pushes you to get lots of cards even when you're not thrilled about playing Stonemason or having it in your deck.  And it's piling issues are bigger because it gives you a lot of control over when it happens.  Anyone can empty piles whenever they want because Stonemason gains so much stuff even with its on-buy.  Proliferate only gains stuff on play, and since your deck is now huge, you don't really know when you're going to be able to do it, so you might not be able to threaten piles when you want to.

I guess it needs testing, but I'm still convinced that Proliferate's piling is far less healthy for the game than Stonemason, though I'm having trouble articulating while.  Part of it may be tied to Engineer's Secret History blurb.  You guys are suggesting that the pile-emptying is incidental, which is a thing that was removed from Engineer because it was incidental.  Proliferate is like that, but with 4 piles instead of 1.  However, I think that it's dangerous in the other way, where it's very easy to deliberately empty 3 piles.  Either way is bad and I don't think Proliferate can hit the good but narrow middle ground with the Prosperity-sized numbers it uses.

Also, while you say that we're making too big a deal about the piling, I'll say that you guys are making too big a deal about the price.  $7 isn't as prohibitive as you guys make it sound.  You can hit $7 fairly early!  And bloating your deck with 4 cards isn't really an issue when you'll be gaining cantrips and draw cards for the engine that Proliferate is very quickly accelerating.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2016, 12:13:55 am »
0

Proliferate is not a good idea. I don't see why this is a debate.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2016, 12:16:16 am »
+1

Proliferate is not a good idea. I don't see why this is a debate.
This entire debate should stop and everyone should go playtest it.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2016, 04:40:27 am »
+3

I don't have someone to playtest it with, but we can pick a few random kingdoms and guess how well Proliferate works in them:

Quote
Patrician/Emporium, Tunnel, Urchin, Conspirator, Feast, Cultist, Jester, Minion, Fairgrounds, King's Court, Windfall, Donate, Platinum/Colonies
What a crazy kingdom! There's a Donate/Windfall thing going on.  And Proliferate makes it even crazier.  Forget colonies, just get KC and Proliferate.  Gain Tunnels, Duchies, and Fairgrounds all in one go.

Quote
Courtyard, Catapult/Rocks, Chancellor, Armory, Magpie, Apprentice, Mint, Rebuild, Trading Post, Adventurer
Ah, Rebuild is probably too fast for Proliferate to matter.  Otherwise, there is some synergy with Apprentice and Catapult!

Quote
Herbalist, Patrician/Emporium, Ratcatcher, Sage, Ghost Ship, Harem, Possession, Bank, Overlord, Blacksmith, Tower, Platinum/Colonies
There's no $4 card to gain, and you probably don't want too many Ghost Ships when there are no villages.  But Sage could help with Emporium, and Harem gives the option of gaining 5 VP per play, possibly more with Tower.  Could be decent.

Quote
Hamlet, Stonemason, Masquerade, Messenger, Navigator, Treasure Map, Bandit Camp, Duke, Journeyman, Merchant Guild
There's a draw engine going on, but somewhat weak.  Proliferate won't help build it since it forces you to pick up stop cards.  But it gains lots of payoff cards, and could help with a Duke strategy.

Overall conclusion: Proliferate is probably pretty strong.
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schadd

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2016, 08:59:30 pm »
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i gave proliferate a 10 and i didn't even think about fairgrounds. what am i even doing here
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2016, 10:03:16 pm »
+1

They've been discussed a lot already, but my favourites are Collector and Consortium.  I think Dividends is kind of boring.  Investor is too similar to Bank for my taste (I preferred Bronze Worker with its Copper restriction).  I think Minister is alright, and I think Proliferate will be broken.

i gave proliferate a 10 and i didn't even think about fairgrounds. what am i even doing here

It's not too late to take it back. :P
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2016, 10:15:17 pm »
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I have a hard time choosing between Collector, Investor, and Minister as my favorite. I mentioned I like Consortium more than I used to, but still not enough to be one of my favorites. I agree Dividends seems kinda boring.
I don't understand how Proliferate got to be a finalist.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 10:18:32 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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