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Author Topic: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)  (Read 7069 times)

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mith

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+4

Results!
View Finalists
View Cards Submitted

This is the seventh contest for this year's set. This week's challenge: Design a card which would fit well in the Prosperity expansion!

Submission Rules

• Each participant may submit one card per challenge.
• Participation in previous or future challenges is not required to participate in this one.
• Submit your card to me via this forum's messaging system. Submissions made after each week's deadline cannot be accepted.
• Each card you submit must have a name, a cost, a list of types, and the exact wording that should appear on the card.  Also include a brief description of any special design considerations (e.g., Stash having a unique back), but do NOT include any other information, such as strategic commentary or examples about it would play.
• The name you give your card will appear on the ballot. If multiple cards with the same name are submitted, I will differentiate them with letters in a randomly chosen order, e.g. [Card Name] A, [Card Name] B, etc. Cards themselves will likewise be listed in a random order on the ballot.
• I will accept revisions to your contest entries provided they are submitted to me before the deadline.  If you submit a revision to an entry you have previously submitted to me, resubmit your revised card(s) in their entirety.
• Only submit cards that are your own design.
• You may submit cards that have been previously posted here in this forum, including those that have been refined by the community as a whole, provided you can still claim that the central conceit of the card -- and the majority of its final version -- is yours.
• A single card might conceivably qualify for multiple challenges within this series. If your card doesn't win the first challenge you submit it to, you may submit it for any and all future challenges (until it wins), provided the card fits those challenges. This is particularly pertinent for cards that don't win the first of two slots for a large expansion, although depending on which card does win, your card may not qualify for the second challenge.
• Do not disclose your submissions publicly, either in this thread or elsewhere!

Except where specified, you may not submit cards combine certain mechanics from multiple expansions. The idea is that you could simply slot the cards into their respective sets without needing components or rules specific to another set. Specifically:

• Duration cards may only be submitted as candidates for a Seaside or Adventures slot.
• Potion-cost cards may only be submitted as candidates for the Alchemy slot.
• Cards that use VP tokens or cost $7 or more may only be submitted as candidates for a Prosperity or Empires slot.
• Cards that use Coin tokens and cards that use overpay may only be submitted as candidates for the Guilds slot.
• Cards that use Ruins (Looters) and cards that use Spoils may only be submitted as candidates for a Dark Ages slot.
• Traveller cards, Reserve cards, and cards making use of player Tokens may only be submitted as candidates for an Adventures slot.
• Gathering cards, cards that use Debt, and Split piles may only be submitted as candidates for an Empires slot.

Many mechanics are fair game for any submission. The following is an incomplete list.

• Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure hybrid cards.
• Cards that allow you to choose an ability from a list.
• Cards with on-buy, would-gain, on-gain, and on-trash abilities.



Challenge #7: Prosperity

Design a Kingdom card that would fit into the Seaside expansion. Such a card could have one or more of the following qualities:

• Is a Treasure or interacts with Treasures.
• Costs $6 or more.
• Uses Victory Point tokens.
• Provides non-Attack interaction.

The winner from 2014 is:

Quote from: SirPeebles
Indulgence

Worth $2
+1 Buy


When you play this, the player to your left chooses a card in the Supply costing between $3 and $6. When you buy a copy of that card this turn, +2VP.

$5      Treasure

Keep in mind that voters may want something that fills a different niche this time around.

Submissions are due by the end of Wednesday, 2016-06-22.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 12:07:27 pm by mith »
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2016, 03:54:25 pm »
0

The runner-up from 2014 will automatically be included in the preliminary voting. The author of this card is allowed to submit a new card as well. (As is SirPeebles, designer of the winning card.)

Quote from: Schneau
Metropolis
Types: Action
Cost: $7
+1 Card. +2 Actions. Treasure cards other than Copper produce an extra $1 this turn.

Other cards from 2014 may be resubmitted as is, tweaked, or discarded in favor of a new concept.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 11:36:38 am »
0

I will probably be extending the deadline a bit; I was intending to send reminders to past participants that the contest is back up, but I haven't gotten to that yet.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2016, 11:03:24 am »
0

I'll be sending out reminders today, and extended the deadline (probably to Monday?).
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ConMan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2016, 01:53:03 am »
0

For some reason, I'm not coming up with anything interesting. I might just submit a slightly revised version of my previous entry, although even with adjustments I don't expect it to blow anyone's mind that much.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 01:29:29 pm »
0

I'll update either today or tomorrow - I've been dealing with an ear infection, so I'm behind on everything right now.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 04:03:50 pm »
+2

Sorry for the delays. Submissions are now closed. I've got them all in my spreadsheet, just need to review them to make sure I didn't lose a line anywhere.
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 04:44:54 pm »
+6

Quote
Bronze Worker
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+2 Actions

Discard any number of copper. +1 Card and +$1 per Copper discarded.

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

Quote
Desert City
Types: Action
Cost: $5

You may discard an Action card. If you do, +3 Cards, +2 Actions; if you don't, discard a card.
You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, +$3; if you don't, -$2.
You may discard a Victory card. If you do, +2 VP; if you don't, discard a card.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

Quote
Entourage
Types: Treasure – Victory
Cost: $7

Worth $2

When you play this, choose one: +1 VP; or reveal any number of Victory cards from your hand and +$1 per card revealed.

Worth 1VP

Quote
Exchequer
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Gain a treasure costing up to $6 to your hand. You may put your deck in your discard pile.
Each other player may gain a Silver on their deck.

Quote
Grand Canal
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Buys
+$2

All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may trash a Treasure other than a Copper from your hand. If you don't, trash this.

Quote
Heirloom
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

+1 Buy

If this is the first time you've played Heirloom this turn, each time you spend $4 or more with one buy, cards cost $2 less (but not less than $0) for the rest of the turn.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

Quote
Metropolis
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Treasure cards other than Copper produce an extra $1 this turn.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

Quote
Party Time
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

Gain two coppers.
Trash any number of cards from your hand. +1 VP and +$1 per card you trashed; if you trashed more than 2 cards, trash this.

Quote
Piggy Bank
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

When you play this, it's worth $1 per treasure card you have in play (counting this) divided by 2 (rounded up).

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

Quote
Prospector
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Trash a card from your hand.
Choose one: +$2, +1 Buy; or draw up to 5 cards in hand.

Quote
Share
Types: Treasure
Cost: $8*

+1 VP

When you play this, reveal cards from your deck until your reveal a Copper or a Share. Discard the other cards. Play that card.

During your buy phase, this card costs $4.

Quote
Stampede
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+3 Cards
+3 Buys

Gain a Victory card. If you do, each other player may gain any Victory or Action card from the supply.

Quote
Trinket
Types: Treasure
Cost: $6

Worth $1

You may reveal a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to half it's cost in coins (rounded down); otherwise, +$1.

Quote
Trout Stream
Types: Victory
Cost: $6

Worth 4 VP

When you gain this, each player starting with the player to your left, including you, may gain a card of their choice costing less than this.

Quote
Voucher
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

Worth $1

When you play this, you may discard a non-Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP.

Quote
Wealthy Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Card
+2 Actions

If this is the first time you've played Wealthy Village this turn, +$1 and +1 VP.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 11:42:56 pm »
+1

Quote
Bronze Worker
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+2 Actions

Discard any number of copper. +1 Card and +$1 per Copper discarded.

Could be interesting but probably too crazy at $4 and maybe too crazy in general.  Coppersmith might be a good comparison.  This is a village and very roughly replaces an amount of coin with the same amount of cards as compared to Coppersmith.  (If you have a hand of 5 Copper, Coppersmith turns the whole thing into $10, whereas Bronze Worker turns it into $5 and 5 cards.)  If your deck and discard pile are empty, then this is a Coppersmith with +2 actions, and if they're not empty, this will generally be a lot better than that.

So I think it needs to cost at least $5 and/or be just +1 action, or something, not sure exactly what you need to fix this.  I'm not sure if I like it enough to vote for it.

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

I get the idea.  I don't like playing a treasure during your action phase unless you have to do that for the concept to work, which, sort of is the case here, but it's not as necessary as for Storyteller and Black Market (and Crown if we're counting that).  If the other player has enough Collectors that they want to discard something reasonably often, they also have to have a lot of non-Copper junk, because they would probably generally prefer to play Coppers with Collectors.  Actually, with enough treasure density (not enough trashing) maybe discarding Copper isn't bad.  I can't decide how relevant that last option would be.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

I think this idea would actually add something good to the game, which is rare because it's both fairly simple and new.  I like that it's a village, because as a terminal or +1 action draw card, it would just be giving you exactly what it gives your opponents, so you only come out ahead by whatever advantage choosing the numbers gives you, but as a village you know you're at least getting something out of it, and depending on the type of deck you're playing maybe you can find clever ways to take advantage of the extra control you have.  What I'm worried about with this card is that it looks like a ton of AP, and even though it will make for a lot of interesting and meaningful decisions sometimes, I'm guessing it will also lead to a lot of difficult and also not-meaningful decisions other times.

Quote
Desert City
Types: Action
Cost: $5

You may discard an Action card. If you do, +3 Cards, +2 Actions; if you don't, discard a card.
You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, +$3; if you don't, -$2.
You may discard a Victory card. If you do, +2 VP; if you don't, discard a card.

So one thing that I like Dominion cards to do is to have a simple enough effect that I can just have an intuitive idea of what's going to happen when I play it, even if the wording is complicated.  I feel like I can't do that with this card.  (Actually it's a problem that I have with a lot of fan cards in general, and a reason I don't like split piles and travelers.)  I can remember it as "discard cards and get bonuses/penalties based on their types", but that's not something that helps me know when I want to buy it.  When I look at this card it's not obvious how it's going to function in any kind of deck.  It just feels like sort of a wild card with a bunch of random effects that just happen to follow a theme with the type of card they're discarding.

What I like about it is the -$2 as a penalty.  I think that's sort of an interesting penalty for a card that can (but won't always) generate virtual coin.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

Pretty cool idea.  I think Dominion needs more cards that pump treasures into your deck because they push engines away from three pile endings (which I think are less fun).  This is a really simple and unique way of doing that.  I'm guessing it will be very strong but not totally insane.

Quote
Entourage
Types: Treasure – Victory
Cost: $7

Worth $2

When you play this, choose one: +1 VP; or reveal any number of Victory cards from your hand and +$1 per card revealed.

Worth 1VP

I'm not a fan of non-terminal +.  The choices seem unrelated.

Quote
Exchequer
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Gain a treasure costing up to $6 to your hand. You may put your deck in your discard pile.
Each other player may gain a Silver on their deck.

I don't think the effect is strong enough to warrant the drawback.  I feel like there's a comparison to be made to Governor, but I guess this is different enough that it's not really close to being strictly worse or anything.  Maybe Explorer is a better comparison.  This always hits and has a Chancellor effect, but the drawback seems huge in games where you would want this.  I guess it's best when the opponent is going for an engine and you're not.  Really it's pretty similar to Dividends but I like Dividends a lot better for some reason.

Quote
Grand Canal
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Buys
+$2

All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may trash a Treasure other than a Copper from your hand. If you don't, trash this.

Like a super Bridge that burns through your treasures.  I guess once you play it it makes it easy to buy more fuel.  Really it's just a huge payload card.  I'm not sure it really covers any territory that Bridge doesn't, it's just a much bigger and more expensive version of it, which I guess that's fine, that's what Expand and King's Court are anyway.

Quote
Heirloom
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

+1 Buy

If this is the first time you've played Heirloom this turn, each time you spend $4 or more with one buy, cards cost $2 less (but not less than $0) for the rest of the turn.

This is a unique mechanic...I guess it's harder to get the cost reduction the more times you get it.  In a Province game you can get it three times and then you can't spend $4 anymore.  But you need a lot of money to do that.  I don't like the "first time" clause, but I guess it needs it to prevent it from just being a crazy non-terminal Bridge.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

This is really similar to Bronze Worker, I think I like this version better.  At least it feels more balanced.  I think it compares favorably with Bank still when the draw and discard piles are empty?  And cards are generally a little better than coin, so it should still be really good otherwise.  I'm not sure how that comparison works actually, because Investors can't count themselves.

Quote
Metropolis
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Treasure cards other than Copper produce an extra $1 this turn.

This one was from the first contest...seems okay.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

I think I remember seeing this one before too.  I think I like it.

Quote
Party Time
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

Gain two coppers.
Trash any number of cards from your hand. +1 VP and +$1 per card you trashed; if you trashed more than 2 cards, trash this.

I sort of like the general mechanic, gaining you junk, letting you trash, and then rewarding you based on how much you trashed.  I'm not sure I like that it becomes a one-shot if it makes progress though, I think that might feel bad.  That makes it a really interesting effect though.  And if you can draw a lot you can explode by trashing everything, except if you could draw that stuff you might not like to trash it, but you get tons of stuff for it.  Okay I think I like this card a lot.

Quote
Piggy Bank
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

When you play this, it's worth $1 per treasure card you have in play (counting this) divided by 2 (rounded up).

This is just a weaker cheaper Bank, but with a +buy.  I guess +buy is a big deal for Bank, but I think Bank already covers that space.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

I actually really like this card, and I'm not sure why.  It's a really simple effect that hasn't been done yet.  Sometimes you won't want all that stuff.  I think it might be good to take off the $6 option, four cards is nuts.  But if Gold is the only $6 I think it balances things out a bit and doesn't contribute to pile-out problems much.

Quote
Prospector
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Trash a card from your hand.
Choose one: +$2, +1 Buy; or draw up to 5 cards in hand.

I'm not sure why this is a Prosperity card.  I don't really find it that compelling either.

Quote
Share
Types: Treasure
Cost: $8*

+1 VP

When you play this, reveal cards from your deck until your reveal a Copper or a Share. Discard the other cards. Play that card.

During your buy phase, this card costs $4.

Again, I don't really like non-terminal VP, and this seems like it's just begging for endless games.  Otherwise it seems like a weird Venture...I just realized this doesn't give .  So it's just overall and then a bunch of maybe.

Quote
Stampede
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+3 Cards
+3 Buys

Gain a Victory card. If you do, each other player may gain any Victory or Action card from the supply.

I don't think I like this...usually you'll just gain a Province, and then your opponent will gain a Province or something else.  So you have to really want that draw (or maybe those buys) in order to actually want this in your deck.  I don't think you'll pay $7 for it very often.  I also don't like how it depletes victory cards so fast.

Quote
Trinket
Types: Treasure
Cost: $6

Worth $1

You may reveal a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to half it's cost in coins (rounded down); otherwise, +$1.

I think I like this except that it might be swingy trying to connect it with a Province.  I don't think it's nearly as bad as Tournament there because you still get a lot for connecting it with other big cards.

Quote
Trout Stream
Types: Victory
Cost: $6

Worth 4 VP

When you gain this, each player starting with the player to your left, including you, may gain a card of their choice costing less than this.

At first I thought I really liked this, but I'm not sure why and I'm not sure if it will be interesting in practice.  It's reminiscent of Messenger, but letting everyone choose seems like a wash, so I'm not sure what it really adds to the game.

Quote
Voucher
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

Worth $1

When you play this, you may discard a non-Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP.

I think the idea could work better if it was more expensive and gave you a bigger bonus for the discarding (like maybe +1 VP, +$1).  As is it feels too "small" for Prosperity.

Quote
Wealthy Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Card
+2 Actions

If this is the first time you've played Wealthy Village this turn, +$1 and +1 VP.

This seems like a nice way to make non-terminal VP work better.  Otherwise it seems sort of plain.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2016, 02:44:40 am »
+1

Collector has been done before as a 5$ that allows you to play 2 Treasure cards. I like that version better.

Consortium is a neat idea but far too expensive.

Desert City seems like a mixture between Bazar and Inn. Probably a bit narrow as it incentivizes to not trash copper and to green early. Not a classical engine-village.

Dividends is a tad too strong for my taste. I can imagine a situation, e.g. in a Chapel game, in which you'd rather want this than Platinum if you hit 9.

Entourage is very similar to Plunder yet prodives an interesting choice between economy or immediate VPs.

Investor is interesting as it disincentivizes trashing Coppers.

Metropolis is another non engine-village.

I don't get Party Time. Without other trashers this only hurts and even with them I'd rather have a Monument than this.

I don't get Stampede. +3 Card +3 Buys is not worth 7$ and the other stuff is just a Province or Colony for everybody. So the only point of the card is pile-control: buy it if you are ahead to rush to the ending.

Trinket is a great idea. Incentivzes early greening and, paradoxically, to buy too many terminals (you can always reveal that unplayed terminal 4$ to quasi-convert it into a Silver).

Wealthy Village suffers from the issue that all "the first time you play this"-villages suffer: you always want some of them even if you don't need a village. A Bazar with a VP on top is after all a decent 6$ and if I don't need the village it is still a Peddler with a VP on top and that's a good 5$.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2016, 01:03:02 pm »
0

Bronze Worker: I think this is just too much better than Coppersmith. With one Copper in hand, Coppersmith is an Abandoned Mine, whereas this card is a Village. With two Coppers, Coppersmith is a terminal Silver and this card is a Lost City.

Collector: I don't know why, but this card just doesn't sit with me too well.

Consortium: So the only thing you gain is 2 Actions. I suppose it could be interesting, but it's super overpriced. You can't build an engine with a $7 Village, and if other Villages are available, what's compelling about this?

Desert City: Seems overpowered honestly. The benefits for discarding the Action and Treasure are super strong, and if you drew your deck, you can draw the Action card back, then use that Action card to draw the Treasure you discarded and the Victory card/random card you discarded.

Dividends: The treasure going into your hand is pointless, you can't play it.

Entourage: Seems weak? But if you make it cheaper then a golden deck gets a lot easier?

Grand Canal: I guess it fits with the Prosperity theme, but I wouldn't feel compelled to buy this too often I don't think. I can't see myself often working it into a deck.

Heirloom: Either this is worded badly or it's too early in the morning. But, whaaaat?

Investor: I guess I like it. Pretty simple, but fine.

Metropolis: This is worth $7 if you have 2 or more Treasures other than Copper, right? So I guess it seems well balanced.

Minister: $6 for this? I don't know man. Maybe?

Party Time: I've seen this card quite a bit, so you'll have to excuse personal biases. I think it might be a bit better with a 3 card trashing limit? I still like it though.

Piggy Bank: Bank is already in Prosperity. Also, too much math (not really, but all the things in parenthesis make me sad).

Proliferate: Dude, this is crazy! But good crazy, you know? I'd vote for this. It might be better as a promo card but that's rad.

Prospector: Eh?

Share: Who loves easy to construct Golden decks? I do!

Stampede: Every time you play this you have to gain a Province/Colony or else your opponent will. So it just ends the game too quickly and makes it too one minded.

Trinket: I like it!

Trout Stream: See Prospector. I like the name though.

Voucher: Seems not so good.

Wealthy Village: I'm a bit underwhelmed.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2016, 04:10:50 pm »
0

Dividends: The treasure going into your hand is pointless, you can't play it.

This isn't true.  You gain it when you play the Dividends, which is before you buy anything.  Since you haven't bought stuff yet, you can keep playing treasures (and spending coin tokens), including the one you just gained.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2016, 04:11:57 pm »
+1

Dividends: The treasure going into your hand is pointless, you can't play it.

This isn't true.  You gain it when you play the Dividends, which is before you buy anything.  Since you haven't bought stuff yet, you can keep playing treasures (and spending coin tokens), including the one you just gained.

Think Ill Gotten Gains.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2016, 10:23:05 pm »
+1

Wealthy Village is ridiculously overtuned. My personal fave was dividends as a simple but strong $7
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2016, 10:27:51 pm »
0

Wealthy Village is ridiculously overtuned. My personal fave was dividends as a simple but strong $7

Overtuned? I have never seen that word before. What does that mean?
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2016, 11:10:37 pm »
0

Wealthy Village is ridiculously overtuned. My personal fave was dividends as a simple but strong $7

Overtuned? I have never seen that word before. What does that mean?

Eh it's being given too much to compensate for its weakness [multiple copies = expensive village]. It should be toned down, or cost 5
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2016, 09:28:22 am »
0

Bronzeworker - Usually a card is better than a coin, so if this were terminal it might be better than coppersmith.  And it's non-terminal, a village even.  I'll note that we already have a non-terminal coppersmith: it's Bank, and it costs 7.

Collector - Oh, so it's like a cheaper lab, where the first one each turn is a cantrip.  And it requires treasures like Stables.

Consortium - This can't actually be worth 7, can it?  I suppose I'd draw up to 8, assess how many of the cards are keepers, and discard down to that.

Desert City - Could probably be simplified to something like, "Discard 3 cards.  If you discarded at least one Action, etc.".  I would say this is extremely powerful.  Without discarding an Action, you discard 3 cards for $3 and 2 VP, which is so so good.  If you discard an Action, even better.

Dividends - Gold flooding is not that exciting to me.  This one strikes me as slightly OP, maybe it should be $0 on play.

Entourage - I like it.  It looks like it's trying to be self-synergizing, but at $7 you won't get many of them together.

Exchequer - Seems like a solid card, like a combination of Explorer, Chancellor, and Sea Hag ;)

Grand Canal - LOL, it's the bridge that's intentionally abusive, and I'm not sure whether that's good or bad.

Heirloom - Aside from the confusing wording, it's kind of a confusing non-terminal once-per-turn Bridge?  I'm confused about what to do with this.  Sure, it's probably good when you're drawing your deck.

Investor - As noted above, we already have a non-terminal coppersmith, and it costs $7.

Metropolis - A super bazaar that requires support.  Seems good.

Minister - This compares unfavorably to Altar.  What's up with all the Bridge effects?  Bridge was in Intrigue.

Party Time - Looks fun to play with, although slightly OP.  If you draw it with trash, it's a super Distant Lands.

Piggy Bank - What's up with all the Bank variants?  Bank is one of the least exciting alt-Treasures.  How about Royal Seal, Venture, Loan, Talisman, Quarry, Contraband, those were cool.

Proliferate - The Treasure Trove of actions, this is probably highly set dependent.  I think I would appreciate a smaller version, but I guess that's Prosperity for you.

Prospector - With a lot of village support, could be a good draw-to-X card?  Seems difficult though.  By itself, it draws comparisons to Salvager & Masquerade.

Share - In games with this, ignore everything else, win the split, and then sit back for rest of game?

Stampede - Wow, if you thought Salt The Earth sped up games, this one does it twice as fast.  I think nobody will actually buy this card, since it's not very good, but its mere presence might discourage building.

Trinket - I'm not excited by alt treasures that do nothing but have variable value.  Trinket vs Gold does not seem like a very interesting choice. 

Trout Stream - Seems like this would accelerate Duchy dancing, not sure it's good otherwise.

Voucher - Some commenter said above that this wants to be bigger; I agree.  But if you make it bigger, now it's Plunder, so...

Wealthy Village - I'd open this.  And then buy more until I'm playing one on most turns.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2016, 03:46:15 pm »
0

I want to make it clear that some Treasure cards don't have to be more expensive. Talisman and Quarry aren't big and spendy. It's not a requirement to have something cost $10000000. I don't hold that against any of the cheap cards.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2016, 04:07:41 pm »
0

I want to make it clear that some Treasure cards don't have to be more expensive. Talisman and Quarry aren't big and spendy. It's not a requirement to have something cost $10000000. I don't hold that against any of the cheap cards.
I agree.  I like Voucher how it is.

And while I'm posting in this thread, I'll say Collector and Investor and probably my two other favorites here.
It's weird that we had two submissions that are so similar with Bronze worker and Investor. I like the idea, so I'm voting for them even though they probably need to be weakened a little, especially Bronze Worker.

Also, while I'm posting: @trivialknot, Do you really find Loan, Royal Seal, and Talisman to be more exciting than Bank?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 04:11:28 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2016, 04:43:17 pm »
+1

My favorite card is Trinket. It is so much better than Fool's Gold. Simply line a Trinket up with another Trinket/Gold/Bank/Platinum/Harem/Province to get a massive amount of money.

I also like the idea of Share. Sure, it is almost impossible to gain them without buying them, but once bought, they can be expanded to Colonies. The victory point gaing effect is similar to Plunder's, but it this one requires Copper trashing to be really useful. Drawing multiple Shares in one hand may be a problem, especially in games where Colonies are available and you can't afford to buy them. I also like the interesting interaction with Swindler who can make whole decks unusable by swindling Shares into Colonies or vice versa.

Dividends is also quite nice. Like Share and Ill Gotten Gains it has a good synergy with Bank. It would also fit into Garden decks very well.

Overall there are many interesting cards and I love the Treasure cards at most.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 04:45:27 pm by King Leon »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2016, 05:41:48 pm »
0

Also, while I'm posting: @trivialknot, Do you really find Loan, Royal Seal, and Talisman to be more exciting than Bank?
Yes.  Variable payoff isn't that interesting.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 01:57:14 am »
+1

One of these is mine!  After I wrote this, I read the comments made so far and adjusted my own comments here.

Quote
Bronze Worker
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+2 Actions

Discard any number of copper. +1 Card and +$1 per Copper discarded.

I like this a lot.  The concept is really simple but also very novel; we've got Cellar and Secret Chamber for cards and coin respectively, and Storehouse which does both one after the other.  This one does both at the same time, but only for Copper.  It feels classic.

I don't think it needs to be a village, which adds some unneeded power.  I'm also worried that it could potentially be overpowering by immediately redrawing discarded Copper.  scott_pilgrim makes a good comparison to Coppersmith, and I agree with his suggested changes (at least $5 and/or just +1 action), maybe even make it terminal.  But I like it enough that I will probably vote for it.  I disagree with trivialknot's comparison to Bank (Bank is a lot better than "non-terminal Coppersmith" since it affects more than just Copper).

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

The name is uninspiring but I like the effect.  Being able to put Treasures into play in the action phase is still cool, and the option for opponents is fun in that it's usually bad but can be good if they have a Collector of their own.  If this wins, I hope the designer takes rename suggestions.

trivialknot's comparison to Lab is nice.  I'll add that it can get better with other ways to lower your hand size (like opponents' Collectors) and gets worse with cards that increase it.  I like cheaper versions of existing cards that are overall more difficult to use.  Still, I think putting Treasures into play is an important part of the concept, especially for the Prosperity theme.  The obvious combo here is Quarry, though Royal Seal is alright as well.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

I like it.  At first, this seems too expensive for what it does, since everything but the +2 actions is also shared with every other player.  After thinking it over though, I think $7 may actually be an appropriate cost because you can really get some big advantages as the one who chooses when to play it and what numbers to use.  My biggest concern is the potentially high AP, but I think it may not be so bad since a lot of it is probably covered by just discarding junk.  I suppose the $7 cost helps to mitigate how often that comes up though.

It looks like a lot of other people are really concerned about the price and not looking much past that.  You can improve the benefit to yourself relative to others by reducing your hand size before playing it, and Consortium itself helps with that by being a disappearing village (which lets you play non-drawing terminals).  You could maybe draw up to 5 and give others no advantage at all, or you could combo with discard attacks to effectively apply the full discard penalty only to other players.  Even without that, you can discard only what you don't need anyway, while other players have no choice there.  If it is overpriced, that could simply be reduced later, so the high cost doesn't bother me much for the contest.

Quote
Desert City
Types: Action
Cost: $5

You may discard an Action card. If you do, +3 Cards, +2 Actions; if you don't, discard a card.
You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, +$3; if you don't, -$2.
You may discard a Victory card. If you do, +2 VP; if you don't, discard a card.

After 3 that I like, this is a bit of a dud for me.  I like the basic concept: for each basic card type, discard one for a bonus or suffer a penalty.  But inconsistent bonuses of both actions and coins makes tracking more difficult than other individual cards.  I find the penalties unappealing asymmetric, with two simply making you discard and the Treasure one giving -$2 instead (which comes with rules questions that should be answered on the card as with Poor House, though this card's text will be crowded enough as it is).  I wonder if the bonuses here were chosen with reference to Sacrifice, though 3 sequential discards should play out a lot differently than a single trash.

I'm also wondering if the penalties are even necessary here.  If you don't have an action to discard, it already hurts that you're not getting the huge vanilla bonuses from that.  Being forced to discard an additional card just makes the other two checks harder to pass.  Likewise for the Victory card penalty, which is harsher than it looks because if it hits, it means you're much less likely to have junk in hand and you're discarding something good.

It seems like several others think this card is too powerful, but I agree more with tristan that it's rather narrow.  I also agree with scott_pilgrim about how it seems like a "wild card with a bunch of random effects", though I'm still against the -$2 penalty.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

The name is misspelled.

So this is usually just "+$4, gain a Gold", right?  Occasionally more exciting with some alt Treasures.  I think this is OK, but it doesn't really grab me.

Quote
Entourage
Types: Treasure – Victory
Cost: $7

Worth $2

When you play this, choose one: +1 VP; or reveal any number of Victory cards from your hand and +$1 per card revealed.

Worth 1VP

This sounds OK.  I think I would like it more if it wasn't a Victory card itself.  Self-synergy is cool and all, but it sounds strong enough to me without counting itself.  The +VP option is just icing on the cake.

Non-terminal +VP is a bit of a concern, and the similarity to Plunder lowers my interest in it.

Quote
Exchequer
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Gain a treasure costing up to $6 to your hand. You may put your deck in your discard pile.
Each other player may gain a Silver on their deck.

Gold-gaining still isn't that interesting to me, and it's far less interesting since Explorer already exists.

Quote
Grand Canal
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Buys
+$2

All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may trash a Treasure other than a Copper from your hand. If you don't, trash this.

Bigger Bridge.  The treasure requirement makes it a lot tougher to use this repeatedly, not because you have to buy more Treasure but because you have to draw it.  That said, I think the big issue is that you don't need to use it repeatedly.  KC+Grand Canal gives you +$6, +6 Buys and reduces all card costs by $6.  Provinces only cost $2, so you can buy 3 Provinces and then at least 3 other cards.  That's a lot for just two cards in hand.  It doesn't even matter if you have to trash Grand Canal because you can pretty easily buy replacements at that point -- they only cost $1!  And if you managed to play just one more after KC-GC, that's a 3-card Province pile drive.  That's just too dominant IMO.

Quote
Heirloom
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

+1 Buy

If this is the first time you've played Heirloom this turn, each time you spend $4 or more with one buy, cards cost $2 less (but not less than $0) for the rest of the turn.

The wording is a little wonky, but I understand the point is to prevent it from stacking.  I like how tricky it should be to use this effectively.  It doesn't provide coins itself, so it's tougher to hit the $4 Buy threshold.  It also gets tougher to trigger it repeatedly because there will be fewer cards that meet that threshold each time!  I actually wonder if this is too weak; it would probably be fine with +2 Buys or even +3 Buys.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

Oh, hey.  This is Bronze Worker that costs more and isn't a village, but isn't restricted to Copper.  I like the first two differences, but I think the Copper restriction is more interesting. 

The Bank comparison is a lot more valid here than with Bronze Worker.  For that reason, I think I'll be more likely to vote for Bronze Worker than this.  I also think the changes I'd like to see with Bronze Worker (higher cost and/or vanilla bonus changes) would be minor compared to the changes I'd like to see here (the Copper restriction).

Quote
Metropolis
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Treasure cards other than Copper produce an extra $1 this turn.

Another card that wants to be compared to Bank... it gains a significant bonus in that it draws a card, but a significant detriment in that it doesn't count Copper.  The village aspect probably doesn't matter much since that conflicts with the Treasure focus, but it does make it easy to fit this card into any deck.

I'd forgotten that this was from the previous contest.  Looking at my first impressions back then, I was a lot more worried about the power, but then I was focused more on the Coppersmith comparison than the Bank comparison, which I see is more apt now.  So I think the card is balanced more than I did before, but also less interesting.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

A cost-reducer and gainer in one.  At $6, the VP penalty seems unnecessary.  Otherwise, I think this is solid.

Quote
Party Time
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

Gain two coppers.
Trash any number of cards from your hand. +1 VP and +$1 per card you trashed; if you trashed more than 2 cards, trash this.

Seems kind of terrible, actually.  The Copper-gaining penalty and the self-trashing penalty are both harsh on their own, and the bonus for trashing is really minor.  I don't think there are any minor changes that can fix this.

Interesting that most others think this is good or even OP... uh, I guess the idea is to accept it as a one-shot and use it on big hands?  Hmm, OK, I can see that being OK.  I'll have to think about this one some more.

Quote
Piggy Bank
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

When you play this, it's worth $1 per treasure card you have in play (counting this) divided by 2 (rounded up).

Half-Bank just isn't interesting, especially as a representative of the set that contains actual Bank.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

I think the pile depletion is too intense with this card.  The dream is that you'd use this to build funky engines where you have to adapt to cards you didn't want but was forced to gain anyway, but I think most games with this are just going to end up as 3-pile endings.  I think it'll be anti-fun in a similar way to Rebuild.

Quote
Prospector
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Trash a card from your hand.
Choose one: +$2, +1 Buy; or draw up to 5 cards in hand.

I don't see any Prosperity themes in this one.

Quote
Share
Types: Treasure
Cost: $8*

+1 VP

When you play this, reveal cards from your deck until your reveal a Copper or a Share. Discard the other cards. Play that card.

During your buy phase, this card costs $4.

Too strong if there's any decent Copper trashing, probably even if the Copper trashing is poor so long as it's available.  You can mass these and play them all every turn with extreme consistency in the same way as a Venture stack can play itself, except this one doesn't mind any Treasure except for Copper and it just gains you VP instead of giving you money and pushing you towards a game end condition.  +VP cards should always consider the possibility of making unending games, and it seems like this card isn't just ignoring that problem but actively trying to make it happen.

Quote
Stampede
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+3 Cards
+3 Buys

Gain a Victory card. If you do, each other player may gain any Victory or Action card from the supply.

The gain isn't even optional, so this is just... empty the Colonies/Provinces immediately?  Just... why?

Quote
Trinket
Types: Treasure
Cost: $6

Worth $1

You may reveal a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to half it's cost in coins (rounded down); otherwise, +$1.

Would be better without the "otherwise, +$1".  You'll rarely want to use that option anyway so it's just unnecessary extra complexity.  Hm, I'm not really a fan.  It seems like an automatic purchase over Gold and I don't see it having much of an impact on the decisions I'd make in the game.

Quote
Trout Stream
Types: Victory
Cost: $6

Worth 4 VP

When you gain this, each player starting with the player to your left, including you, may gain a card of their choice costing less than this.

I like the on-gain effect on a high cost card.  I don't like that it's a VP card.  The on-gain is most interesting for the early game, in that it accelerates all strategies.  It's symmetric and each player gets their own choice so it's a wash overall, but still interesting to me.  However, by putting the effect on a Victory card, it's much more likely that everybody will just choose Duchy, which is much less fun.

Quote
Voucher
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

Worth $1

When you play this, you may discard a non-Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP.

I think this is OK, but not super interesting.  I don't think I'd actually buy this unless there were junkers in the kingdom though, as the opportunity cost to buy it and also throw away useful cards is high, especially since Voucher itself is barely anything more than a VP generator.  I think this would be better as a $5 Silver+ or making a more expensive Gold+.

To be clear, I'm not saying I want Voucher to be bigger because it's Prosperity, but because I think it's just too weak as it is.

Quote
Wealthy Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Card
+2 Actions

If this is the first time you've played Wealthy Village this turn, +$1 and +1 VP.

Seems fine, but kind of boring?  tristan makes a good point that you can just buy one and have it be a cheaper super-Bazaar.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 06:36:01 am »
0

I may have been too harsh on Bronze Worker and Investor.  Drawing new cards is different enough from Bank--it's a bit like a cellar with payoff.  Bank also has that extra $1 from counting itself.  Like eHalcyon, I like the cost and vanilla effect of Investor better, but I also like the copper restriction of Bronze Worker.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 06:55:47 am »
0

You would want the +1 for trinket if you have no cards in hand or they all cost less than two.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 07:20:44 am »
0

Quote
Bronze Worker
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+2 Actions

Discard any number of copper. +1 Card and +$1 per Copper discarded.

How strong is this as an opening? I mean, on T3, you have this with 4 coppers, you can play it, get +$4 and +4 cards, so at least one more copper. And whatever $3 you bought when you opened. I do like that it looses strenght when you have a real good (trashing) enginge going on. I'll probably vote for it, and I can't think of a way to improve the card, but man, is this a strong opener. (It also cycles, which is also a very good bonus.)

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

I am a bit confused by the purpose of this card. So you decrease handsize to put a treasure in play, but why would anyone else (except in menagerie kind of cases) discard a card? That's more a Cornucopia theme, though. I mean, it's a niche card, but maybe a bit too niche for me.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

Man, that's a fun card. Great (non-attack) interaction too.

Quote
Desert City
Types: Action
Cost: $5

You may discard an Action card. If you do, +3 Cards, +2 Actions; if you don't, discard a card.
You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, +$3; if you don't, -$2.
You may discard a Victory card. If you do, +2 VP; if you don't, discard a card.
Like others have said, a bit too random and too much you need to remember, I think. And +3 Cards, +2 actions seems insane.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

+a gold (usually) and +$4. It's definitely prosperity themed, but I am not feeling it, I guess. There is nothing wrong per se with the card (balanced, not something that's already been done, etc.) but it's a bit underwhelming. I also don't like the automatic buy in big money.

Quote
Entourage
Types: Treasure – Victory
Cost: $7

Worth $2

When you play this, choose one: +1 VP; or reveal any number of Victory cards from your hand and +$1 per card revealed.

Worth 1VP

A bit too random for my taste. I do like that it incentivizes early greaning and that greens get turned into a resource. So I might still vote for it. Took me a few seconds to understand the card, but when i did, it's fun.

Quote
Exchequer
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Gain a treasure costing up to $6 to your hand. You may put your deck in your discard pile.
Each other player may gain a Silver on their deck.

Gain a gold, cycle your deck and everyone may gain a silver.

Quote
Grand Canal
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Buys
+$2

All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may trash a Treasure other than a Copper from your hand. If you don't, trash this.

I think a big improvement would be if it said 'When this is in play: All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0'. That way, you avoid throne room and king's court shenanigans. So I'll vote for it, under that condition. I think this solves one of the criticisms raised above, without destroying the card's central idea. (Cfr. eHalcyon's comments.)

Quote
Heirloom
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

+1 Buy

If this is the first time you've played Heirloom this turn, each time you spend $4 or more with one buy, cards cost $2 less (but not less than $0) for the rest of the turn.

I like cards with restrictions such as 'first time you played' (but other people don't seem to like it.) I think you would achieve the same effect with the words: 'If there is at least one Heirloom in play, each time you spend $4 or more with one buy,...' except when you use procession, I think. But I like the concept, and I like the trickiness of using it effectively.

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Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

Meh. I think I like bronze worker more.

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Metropolis
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Treasure cards other than Copper produce an extra $1 this turn.

What a village! I am on the fence on this one.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

I have seen it. It basically says: 'You may gain a $5 card, if you do, loose 1 vp'. I think that's a fair card. (It has some other effects for during your buy phase and all, but that's the main one.) Given that it gains $5 cards, a price of $6 is appropriate. The relevant card to compare it too, I think, is Altar. This works slightly different, but in a good way, I think.

I also would add the 'When this is in play clause', again, to avoid weird King's court shenanigans that we want to avoid (or that I want to avoid) on cost reducers.
 

Quote
Party Time
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

Gain two coppers.
Trash any number of cards from your hand. +1 VP and +$1 per card you trashed; if you trashed more than 2 cards, trash this.

Like RoadRunner said, this probably would work better when you can trash up to 3 (instead of 2) before trashing it. Now it's not really a trasher (= a net-reducer of your deck), unless you trash it yourself. When you can trash up to 3 it's a net-trasher of maximum 1 card, if you have that much junk in your hand. And for a price of $5, it could be a net trasher of 1. (Also, you gain the two coppers regardless, so even if you just trash one card. But given the nice bonus of 1 vp and $1, you probably would want to trash at least two, even if that means sacrificing a silver, I think.)

I think a good comparison is forge, with the difference that forge is a net-trasher, and this (as designed) isn't. But with the modifier, I think it should work. So I am voting for on that condition.


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Piggy Bank
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5

+1 Buy

When you play this, it's worth $1 per treasure card you have in play (counting this) divided by 2 (rounded up).

It's cute, but just too similar.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

I think this card needs a 'When this is in the game, you need one additional empty kingdom pile for end game conditions' or something to that effect, otherwise this will decrease the game length insane. But with that modifier, I think it might be interesting

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Prospector
Types: Action
Cost: $5

Trash a card from your hand.
Choose one: +$2, +1 Buy; or draw up to 5 cards in hand.

Slightly too random for me.

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Share
Types: Treasure
Cost: $8*

+1 VP

When you play this, reveal cards from your deck until your reveal a Copper or a Share. Discard the other cards. Play that card.

During your buy phase, this card costs $4.

Well, when there is copper trashing, this card seems like a race to buy share's, although it doesn't actually give you money, so it seems like it might lead towards infinity games (which is not that great.) Maybe it should be more expensive and have some kind of clause? +1VP if you buy a card, for example.

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Stampede
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+3 Cards
+3 Buys

Gain a Victory card. If you do, each other player may gain any Victory or Action card from the supply.

This is just insane. I am very puzzled about what the designed of this card was thining. Any kind of victory card is basically 'gain a province', right? I mean, what else. And then everyone else get's to gain one too? Whut? It needs some kind of limitations, at least.


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Trinket
Types: Treasure
Cost: $6

Worth $1

You may reveal a card from your hand. If you do, +$ equal to half it's cost in coins (rounded down); otherwise, +$1.

Was this an effort to be the second tournament-explorer? I don't think like the 'otherwise: +$1', which feels like a consolidation prize. But besides that, I guess it works.  If you want the power of the trinket, make sure you have cards left.

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Trout Stream
Types: Victory
Cost: $6

Worth 4 VP

When you gain this, each player starting with the player to your left, including you, may gain a card of their choice costing less than this.

I like it. Interesting interacting, large amount of VP, and everyone else can gain a $5 card. Cool enough.

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Voucher
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3

Worth $1

When you play this, you may discard a non-Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP.

I am not sure. So if you discard a copper or action card (or curses), you gain one vp. In slogs, this is almost a must buy, right? But will it ever lead to an ending game condition in slogs? Wouldn't those last ages with this card?

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Wealthy Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Card
+2 Actions

If this is the first time you've played Wealthy Village this turn, +$1 and +1 VP.

Again, I like cards that diminish in power the longer you play with it. But this is almost an automatic buy over any other village. I think it might even cost $5, even if only the first one you play is useful.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2016, 11:16:51 am »
0

@Adrian on Collector: Discarding an Estate would help their own Collector, and there are edge cases where they might want to discard a card (Library, Tunnel, Watchtower, Jack of All Trades, they have two terminals and only want one to miss the shuffle)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2016, 11:20:08 am »
0

@Adrian on Collector: Discarding an Estate would help their own Collector, and there are edge cases where they might want to discard a card (Library, Tunnel, Watchtower, Jack of All Trades, they have two terminals and only want one to miss the shuffle)

Yup, but still a bit edgy. I'd be ok with it, if the rest of the card was more interesting, but I don't think it is atm.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2016, 01:37:57 pm »
0

You would want the +1 for trinket if you have no cards in hand or they all cost less than two.

Yeah, but that'll be an edge case. You don't even have an Estate or Silver to reveal? It's a backup prize that isn't necessary for the card to do its thing. It would be like if Smithy gave +$1 whenever it doesn't draw a full 3 cards. Yes, that makes it more powerful, but it's needless extra complexity on the card.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2016, 01:46:43 pm »
0

I understand now that collector is actually a very nice disguised peddler, what a great idea, actually.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2016, 03:21:24 pm »
0

I think Proliferate emptying piles is a concern and might make it need something else (like the extra pile clause is a nice idea), but I think it won't be as bad as people are saying, because it always has to take from differently priced piles.  You could play it 10 times and three pile if you take the same cards every time, but that's not that fast.  Obviously it gets easier with help from the other player and yourself, but I think it might actually be okay as it is.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2016, 03:48:55 pm »
0

I think Proliferate emptying piles is a concern and might make it need something else (like the extra pile clause is a nice idea), but I think it won't be as bad as people are saying, because it always has to take from differently priced piles.  You could play it 10 times and three pile if you take the same cards every time, but that's not that fast.  Obviously it gets easier with help from the other player and yourself, but I think it might actually be okay as it is.

Well, it's no just proliferate, of course, that empties piles, right? You also have regular buys and all that. And, of course, a second player.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2016, 07:06:52 pm »
0

I should've waited longer to vote. I'd kinda like to change my vote after reading more of the discussion.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.
I think I've changed my opinion on this one. I like it more now since the draw & discard for other players is optional for them, but if they choose to draw, they also must discard. And if you have a discard attack, you can draw up to 8 without discarding, and then play your discard attack to make everyone else discard. It's potentially very powerful, so I don't think it's overpriced.

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Wealthy Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Card
+2 Actions

If this is the first time you've played Wealthy Village this turn, +$1 and +1 VP.
I think an easy fix for this would be "If this if the second time you've played wealthy village this turn..."

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2016, 04:35:38 am »
+2

I should've waited longer to vote. I'd kinda like to change my vote after reading more of the discussion.

You can click "Remove Vote" underneath the results and vote again.
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pst

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2016, 04:40:47 pm »
0

Evidently I voted for something a long time ago, and now I get spam about it again and again.
Will it stop if I find my vote and remove it?
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2016, 04:47:13 pm »
+2

It'll stop if you just message Mith 'hey, I am not really interested in participating in this. Could you remove me from the mailing list? Thanks in advance!'
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mith

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2016, 06:01:30 pm »
0

^That. I've removed you.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2016, 07:15:44 am »
+2

It's no secret Minister is by me, so i'll point this one out to some of you who think it's too weak: They stack. Most importantly, your second Minister can gain another one, and the fourth a Province. The cost reduction isn't something to sneeze at, either. And the penalty is there because it played very, very strong - not because i wanted the penalty. I mean, it's fine if you dislike the card for any reason at all, but from my playtesting experience it's really not weak.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2016, 08:03:38 am »
0

I knew Minister stacked, although it's hard to believe that it's strong when it requires the support of an engine that can play multiple $6 terminal stop cards.  At that point, lots of cards are strong.  Five gold will nearly get you about as many points as five Ministers, but for some reason people think it's ridiculous to build an engine with gold as payoff.  Ah, but if you've playtested it, I believe you.

I also like to think about how cards would play without an engine.  What if there isn't draw?  What if splitters are missing?  What if there's no buy/gain? What if there's strong junking and/or weak trashing? etc.  These are the situations where I was thinking Minister seemed weak in comparison to Altar.  But I suppose sometimes you want that $5 gainer.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2016, 08:53:32 am »
+1

I knew Minister stacked, although it's hard to believe that it's strong when it requires the support of an engine that can play multiple $6 terminal stop cards.  At that point, lots of cards are strong.  Five gold will nearly get you about as many points as five Ministers, but for some reason people think it's ridiculous to build an engine with gold as payoff.  Ah, but if you've playtested it, I believe you.

I also like to think about how cards would play without an engine.  What if there isn't draw?  What if splitters are missing?  What if there's no buy/gain? What if there's strong junking and/or weak trashing? etc.  These are the situations where I was thinking Minister seemed weak in comparison to Altar.  But I suppose sometimes you want that $5 gainer.

Well, Minister helps building that engine, so if you go for it without trying to build an engine, i assume you won't get that much out of it. I didn't play 5K games with it, only a few, so my opinion might not be final, either. Everyone should vote for what they like, either way, i just wanted to say that my experience to date didn't match the apparent consensus that it was weak.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2016, 10:09:49 am »
0

Minister seems also great in slogs. Gain Dutchies easily.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2016, 01:39:30 pm »
0

It's no secret Minister is by me, so i'll point this one out to some of you who think it's too weak: They stack. Most importantly, your second Minister can gain another one, and the fourth a Province. The cost reduction isn't something to sneeze at, either. And the penalty is there because it played very, very strong - not because i wanted the penalty. I mean, it's fine if you dislike the card for any reason at all, but from my playtesting experience it's really not weak.

I can believe it's strong, but I'm not convinced that a VP penalty is a good fix.

I and probably others don't keep on top of the big fan expansion threads, so I didn't know it was yours. Even though that's public knowledge, it's probably better not to announce it.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2016, 06:38:33 pm »
0

It's no secret Minister is by me, so i'll point this one out to some of you who think it's too weak: They stack. Most importantly, your second Minister can gain another one, and the fourth a Province. The cost reduction isn't something to sneeze at, either. And the penalty is there because it played very, very strong - not because i wanted the penalty. I mean, it's fine if you dislike the card for any reason at all, but from my playtesting experience it's really not weak.

I can believe it's strong, but I'm not convinced that a VP penalty is a good fix.

I and probably others don't keep on top of the big fan expansion threads, so I didn't know it was yours. Even though that's public knowledge, it's probably better not to announce it.

I understand. My perception was that this would be frequented by the same people who frequent the other fan card threads, so i thought it was public knowledge. I mean, it's available information at the very least. I also think i would have felt a bit dishonest to defend my own card and leaving people think i was just some random guy who supports it. I will refrain from announcing such things (and possibly comment on my own cards at all) in future rounds.

eHalcyon

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2016, 10:29:51 pm »
0

I understand. My perception was that this would be frequented by the same people who frequent the other fan card threads, so i thought it was public knowledge. I mean, it's available information at the very least. I also think i would have felt a bit dishonest to defend my own card and leaving people think i was just some random guy who supports it. I will refrain from announcing such things (and possibly comment on my own cards at all) in future rounds.

I don't know how others feel about it, but I'm totally cool with you defending your card (semi-)anonymously, especially if you're also commenting on other entries as well.
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tristan

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2016, 05:07:47 am »
0

I knew Minister stacked, although it's hard to believe that it's strong when it requires the support of an engine that can play multiple $6 terminal stop cards.  At that point, lots of cards are strong.
Sure but if there is a Village in the Kingdom and half-way decent 5$ cards Minister seems like an obvious choice in order to first get 5s and then with a second or third Minister and village support 6s/Gold.
Just compare it with Altar. Altar can be a good card even in a moderately thinned deck for the simple reason that it gains 5s.
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Asper

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2016, 09:04:14 am »
+1

Oh man, so i should comment on other cards, too?

Quote
Bronze Worker
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Actions
Discard any number of copper. +1 Card and +$1 per Copper discarded.
This feels like it would be okay for $2, like Cellar. It keeps you the coins of your Coppers at the beginning (but can't discard the Estates nor really uses the action) while giving you an additional action later (without being actually good at sifting at that point). It would be nice, but costing $2 and caring about Copper is a bit un-Prosperity in my book.


Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action
You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.
I don't really like the interaction, because it's useful only if you also go for the card. The concept of playing a Treasure and drawing after that is nice, though. I have seen it before on a card by Co0kieL0rd, so it's probably not as unexpected. Still neat and Prosperity-ish.


Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7
+2 Actions
Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.
So, you harm yourself that way? Huh, i'm not sure how appropriate the cost is. I wonder whether this is tested. Either way, it's an attack that lacks the attack type, and i really can't say i like that. People always appear to think an attack is less of an attack when it hurts itself, but it only makes it a bad attack. Sorry.


Quote
Desert City
Types: Action
Cost: $5
You may discard an Action card. If you do, +3 Cards, +2 Actions; if you don't, discard a card.
You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, +$3; if you don't, -$2.
You may discard a Victory card. If you do, +2 VP; if you don't, discard a card.
This could be soooo much easier if you make the second option discarding too and reformat a bit:
Discard a card. If it is an Action: +3 Cards, +2 Actions
Discard a card. If it is a Treasure: +$3
Discard a card. If it is a Victory: +2VP
Either way, it has too much going on AND gives you VP without doing anything to progress the game. In fact, it allows you to re-draw that same card the same turn and discard it again for VP. It's not even "monument"-ally weak without the VP option. No fun.


Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7
Worth $1
When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.
So incredibly strong... It's almost Platinum AND gains Golds. Sure, you don't always want Gold - but that's partly because Gold has an opportunity cost - something this card practically removes. Very Prosperity-ish, though.


Quote
Entourage
Types: Treasure – Victory
Cost: $7
Worth $2
When you play this, choose one: +1 VP; or reveal any number of Victory cards from your hand and +$1 per card revealed.

Worth 1VP
Too much like Plunder in my opinion. Sorry.
Fun fact: "Plunder" in german means "useless stuff".


Quote
Exchequer
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a treasure costing up to $6 to your hand. You may put your deck in your discard pile.
Each other player may gain a Silver on their deck.
Not bad. It has friendly interaction and money, so it's very Prosperity-ish. I'm not sure it's that exciting, though - everything on it has always been there.


Quote
Grand Canal
Types: Action
Cost: $7
+2 Buys
+$2
All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may trash a Treasure other than a Copper from your hand. If you don't, trash this.
This feels a bit wonky. As if it could have worked just fine as a $7-Bridge reducing prices by $2, and someone wanted it too have more going on.


Quote
Heirloom
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3
+1 Buy
If this is the first time you've played Heirloom this turn, each time you spend $4 or more with one buy, cards cost $2 less (but not less than $0) for the rest of the turn.
I like the idea, but not a great fan of the execution. For example, i wouldn't limit it to one Heirloom per turn, and talk about the card's cost instead of what you spend. Overpay isn't relevant enough for a wording to go that distance. I can't really think of a way to fix it up, but if there's a simpler wording, i think it's a cute idea.


Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action
Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.
This suffers from me having seen two "remove coins for draw"-cards before... If i try to be fair, i think it's okay, but probably a bit weak. I mean, it's like a more restrictive Cellar that gives an additional bonus. On the other hand, Vault is an improved Secret Chamber for $5 and had to be nerfed. I guess this is fine if you can repeatedly discard your money for more cash, as it will make your engine capable of running with little treasure cards - what sucks is if you draw this without other Treasures, as this makes it a stop card. I'd be in favour of making this able to discard other cards or costing less.

Quote
Metropolis
Types: Action
Cost: $7
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Treasure cards other than Copper produce an extra $1 this turn.
I get why you'd exclude Copper here, as getting 4 Coppers in hand early is really easy - especially if you can use some terminal draw with this. The name is also cute. I'm not sure the parts really interact that well, but i guess what you can do is go for Silver and terminal draw, hope to hit $7 as early as possible, and then buy Provinces. I'd have to try it out, though.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6
All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.
So this is combines two concepts that are even better in combination and makes up for it with friendly interaction. Also it costs $6, gains expensive stuff and uses VP, (very Prosperity-ish) and cleanly implements the self-Curse concept. I admit it looks a bit "I dunno"-ish, but King's Court doesn't look as strong as it is on first glimpse, either - right? My experience is that it's fun to play and not actually weak.

Other cards later, probably.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2016, 11:05:52 am »
0

Oh man, so i should comment on other cards, too?

Quote
Bronze Worker
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Actions
Discard any number of copper. +1 Card and +$1 per Copper discarded.
This feels like it would be okay for $2, like Cellar. It keeps you the coins of your Coppers at the beginning (but can't discard the Estates nor really uses the action) while giving you an additional action later (without being actually good at sifting at that point). It would be nice, but costing $2 and caring about Copper is a bit un-Prosperity in my book.


Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action
You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.
I don't really like the interaction, because it's useful only if you also go for the card. The concept of playing a Treasure and drawing after that is nice, though. I have seen it before on a card by Co0kieL0rd, so it's probably not as unexpected. Still neat and Prosperity-ish.


Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7
+2 Actions
Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.
So, you harm yourself that way? Huh, i'm not sure how appropriate the cost is. I wonder whether this is tested. Either way, it's an attack that lacks the attack type, and i really can't say i like that. People always appear to think an attack is less of an attack when it hurts itself, but it only makes it a bad attack. Sorry.

I'm curious why you think Bronze Worker should cost less. In any case, a Prosperity theme is "cares about Treasure", which includes Copper. See Counting House.

Collector's interaction has other benefits too, even though they're niche.  It just guarantees that it can be useful on a given board, which is more than can be said for stuff like Fortress and Tunnel.

Consortium isn't an attack because it's entirely optional. It's as much an attack as Vault. In my earlier comments, I considered possible reasons why it should cost so much.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2016, 11:11:52 am »
0

If nobody draws cards with consortium, I get to go all the way to 8 cards, easy peasy. That's pretty cool ΰnd I get two actions? Booyah.

And if other people do, well, that's ok. I'll just say the number that allows me too keep my action cards, and maybe a gold or so. But those coppers and estates and maybe curses; I'll discard, and hope he'll have to discard something useful too.

I totally get why consortium costs $7.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 11:13:14 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2016, 11:47:28 am »
+1

I'm curious why you think Bronze Worker should cost less. In any case, a Prosperity theme is "cares about Treasure", which includes Copper. See Counting House.
I explained that. It's like a Cellar that gives a few additional bucks at the beginning and likely becomes a Necropolis later. That doesn't seem worth $4 to me at all. And if it costs $2, as i think it should, well, all Prosperity cards cost $3 at least. I guess i always thought of Counting House as a bit anti-thematic (Copper doesn't exactly feel "spendy"), but of course that's debatable. Either way, it seems really not good enough at any point to warrant $4 in my opinion. The most relevant case i can think of would be an engine that discards and redraws the same Coppers multiple times, but i honestly am not a fan of "this is good when you drew your deck" designs. Also, when you play it only after drawing your deck, the second action goes to waste yet again.


Collector's interaction has other benefits too, even though they're niche.  It just guarantees that it can be useful on a given board, which is more than can be said for stuff like Fortress and Tunnel.
Fortress is a Village. It's useful on practically every board. Tunnel is worth disproportionally many points compared to Estate and will at the least influence the endgame. That's still not much, but discarding still is a very common mechanic even then.
I mean, i know cards that interact with Collector exist, but the chance that one of them appears with it is next to none. So it's little enough to say what i said, namely that you (in 90% of the cases) will have to go for that same card to get something from it. It feels a bit too... wanted?


Consortium isn't an attack because it's entirely optional. It's as much an attack as Vault. In my earlier comments, I considered possible reasons why it should cost so much.
Huh, right... Consortium only has you discard if you drew... Okay. So, do i go first here to give other players a hint whether they too want to draw? I guess i do. It still feels a bit like a trap you set up for other players. Do i draw when another player plays this so he can't just keep his cards? Don't i risk too much doing that? Should i wait a second for Thomas to draw cards and hope he loses most of his hand while denying Greg the full 8 cards? But what if Greg doesn't discard at all? I'm not sure i like the "screw yourself over because of trying to deny somebody something"-guessing game here, either.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2016, 12:34:48 pm »
+1

I'm curious why you think Bronze Worker should cost less. In any case, a Prosperity theme is "cares about Treasure", which includes Copper. See Counting House.
I explained that. It's like a Cellar that gives a few additional bucks at the beginning and likely becomes a Necropolis later. That doesn't seem worth $4 to me at all. And if it costs $2, as i think it should, well, all Prosperity cards cost $3 at least. I guess i always thought of Counting House as a bit anti-thematic (Copper doesn't exactly feel "spendy"), but of course that's debatable. Either way, it seems really not good enough at any point to warrant $4 in my opinion. The most relevant case i can think of would be an engine that discards and redraws the same Coppers multiple times, but i honestly am not a fan of "this is good when you drew your deck" designs. Also, when you play it only after drawing your deck, the second action goes to waste yet again.

A few extra bucks is really good though?? I'm just curious about it because the consensus in comments so far is that it's too strong, but you're saying it's weak instead.  It's an interesting perspective that I'm not fully understanding because of how quickly you're putting it down.

When you play it after drawing your deck, how are +actions wasted?  You could still have terminals to play.

Collector's interaction has other benefits too, even though they're niche.  It just guarantees that it can be useful on a given board, which is more than can be said for stuff like Fortress and Tunnel.
Fortress is a Village. It's useful on practically every board. Tunnel is worth disproportionally many points compared to Estate and will at the least influence the endgame. That's still not much, but discarding still is a very common mechanic even then.
I mean, i know cards that interact with Collector exist, but the chance that one of them appears with it is next to none. So it's little enough to say what i said, namely that you (in 90% of the cases) will have to go for that same card to get something from it. It feels a bit too... wanted?

Fortress is a village (always useful) and is untrashable (needs trasher to be useful).  Tunnel is VP (always useful) and has a discard reaction (needs discarder to be useful).  Collector is a handsize-reducer with built-in draw-to-X (always useful) and it lets other players discard a card (needs draw-to-X, Tunnel, Minion, maybe some other things to be useful).

So if you're focusing on the niche part only, Collector has an advantage over both Fortress and Tunnel in that the board automatically contains something that works with it.  If you're going to complain about the niche-ness of Collector's thing, I think you should be even more miffed about Fortress and Tunnel.  Or are you saying that the main part of it isn't impactful enough on its own?  It sounds useful to me.

Consortium isn't an attack because it's entirely optional. It's as much an attack as Vault. In my earlier comments, I considered possible reasons why it should cost so much.
Huh, right... Consortium only has you discard if you drew... Okay. So, do i go first here to give other players a hint whether they too want to draw? I guess i do. It still feels a bit like a trap you set up for other players. Do i draw when another player plays this so he can't just keep his cards? Don't i risk too much doing that? Should i wait a second for Thomas to draw cards and hope he loses most of his hand while denying Greg the full 8 cards? But what if Greg doesn't discard at all? I'm not sure i like the "screw yourself over because of trying to deny somebody something"-guessing game here, either.

I think the official rule is that you start with the current player and go left for simultaneous things like this.  So the Consortium player picks a number and then chooses to draw.  Then every other player gets the same choice.  When it goes all the way around, the Consortium player picks a number and then everybody who drew discards. 

As the other player, you know the upper number and whether the Consortium player drew.  If they did not draw, you can be reasonably sure that the draw will be followed by "discard down to 3" so you can weigh your options accordingly.  Choosing to follow is trickier because you expose yourself to the discard, but it still shouldn't sting that much because it's bounded.  Best 3 of 8 cards is a pretty good deal compared to your starting 5.  I don't think it's really a "screw yourself over" kind of decision.

I guess it's subjective, but I personally think this kind of deep "mind games" kind of non-attack interaction would be fun.

Edit: By the way, in case it wasn't clear, I really appreciate this kind of back-and-forth discussion; I think it's really helpful.  It was more common in past design contests and I've missed it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 12:48:25 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2016, 02:01:22 pm »
+1

I'm curious why you think Bronze Worker should cost less. In any case, a Prosperity theme is "cares about Treasure", which includes Copper. See Counting House.
I explained that. It's like a Cellar that gives a few additional bucks at the beginning and likely becomes a Necropolis later. That doesn't seem worth $4 to me at all. And if it costs $2, as i think it should, well, all Prosperity cards cost $3 at least. I guess i always thought of Counting House as a bit anti-thematic (Copper doesn't exactly feel "spendy"), but of course that's debatable. Either way, it seems really not good enough at any point to warrant $4 in my opinion. The most relevant case i can think of would be an engine that discards and redraws the same Coppers multiple times, but i honestly am not a fan of "this is good when you drew your deck" designs. Also, when you play it only after drawing your deck, the second action goes to waste yet again.
A cellar that gives a few additional bucks is so good though.  A gold is a copper that gives a few additional bucks.  Bronze Worker only turns into a Necropolis if you don't draw a single copper with it, and if your thinning is that good you can just trash Bronze Worker.  And besides, the presence of Bronze worker should make you consider not thinning out your copper in the first place, since you're just sifting through it anyway.

Collector's interaction has other benefits too, even though they're niche.  It just guarantees that it can be useful on a given board, which is more than can be said for stuff like Fortress and Tunnel.
Fortress is a Village. It's useful on practically every board. Tunnel is worth disproportionally many points compared to Estate and will at the least influence the endgame. That's still not much, but discarding still is a very common mechanic even then.
I mean, i know cards that interact with Collector exist, but the chance that one of them appears with it is next to none. So it's little enough to say what i said, namely that you (in 90% of the cases) will have to go for that same card to get something from it. It feels a bit too... wanted?

Fortress is a village (always useful) and is untrashable (needs trasher to be useful).  Tunnel is VP (always useful) and has a discard reaction (needs discarder to be useful).  Collector is a handsize-reducer with built-in draw-to-X (always useful) and it lets other players discard a card (needs draw-to-X, Tunnel, Minion, maybe some other things to be useful).

So if you're focusing on the niche part only, Collector has an advantage over both Fortress and Tunnel in that the board automatically contains something that works with it.  If you're going to complain about the niche-ness of Collector's thing, I think you should be even more miffed about Fortress and Tunnel.  Or are you saying that the main part of it isn't impactful enough on its own?  It sounds useful to me.
I think the main effect of the interaction on Collector is to make it more worthwhile to contest it.  If your opponent has a stack of Collectors, you can buy a few to help you sift.  It's like the reaction part of Fool's Gold, which grants a consolation prize to the person who lost the split 2/8.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2016, 07:00:01 pm »
+1

A few extra bucks is really good though?? I'm just curious about it because the consensus in comments so far is that it's too strong, but you're saying it's weak instead.  It's an interesting perspective that I'm not fully understanding because of how quickly you're putting it down.

Well, Baron is a lot of bucks early... But you may be right that i'm underestimating it. Maybe i'm even totally wrong. Huh, let's see... At the start, it's really, really good, like a better Lab. On the other hand, Baron also is a lot better than Harvest or Wine Merchant at the start, too. So, is Baron better or worse than this card later on? Better than several weak $5s if it hits vs Necropolis/Village/Lost City/... I guess the maximum effect is a lot better, especially as the coins you get are added to your payload. So, i understand the point, and it seems my first perception was wrong.

Fortress is a village (always useful) and is untrashable (needs trasher to be useful).  Tunnel is VP (always useful) and has a discard reaction (needs discarder to be useful).  Collector is a handsize-reducer with built-in draw-to-X (always useful) and it lets other players discard a card (needs draw-to-X, Tunnel, Minion, maybe some other things to be useful).

So if you're focusing on the niche part only, Collector has an advantage over both Fortress and Tunnel in that the board automatically contains something that works with it.  If you're going to complain about the niche-ness of Collector's thing, I think you should be even more miffed about Fortress and Tunnel.  Or are you saying that the main part of it isn't impactful enough on its own?  It sounds useful to me.
It's not about usefulness, just about the fact that the card has an effect that tells other players to buy the card (most of the time). If two players have the card, they are helping each other, so you need to go for it yourself to not fall behind with these guys who are pushing each other forward. I guess that's something i don't like. It just feels like it tries to shove itself into my face, shouting "They got me, get me too!". It's a bit like the reverse of Bishop or Vault - both are worse if you used another player's effect, which actively pushes players into different directions. This does the opposite and pulls the players in a mirror. Like Alice.
And, well, it feels a bit obvious in it's approach to make the player interaction relevant.

As the other player, you know the upper number and whether the Consortium player drew.  If they did not draw, you can be reasonably sure that the draw will be followed by "discard down to 3" so you can weigh your options accordingly.  Choosing to follow is trickier because you expose yourself to the discard, but it still shouldn't sting that much because it's bounded.  Best 3 of 8 cards is a pretty good deal compared to your starting 5.  I don't think it's really a "screw yourself over" kind of decision.

Well, i'm not sure that best 3 of 8 is really better than random 5 of 8. How good need those 3 to be? It just feels like it could be very frustrating.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2016, 08:57:32 pm »
0

Bronze Worker -- I think it's also a lot easier to line up with Copper than with Estate.

Collector -- OK, that's fair.  I guess my rebuttal would be, is it a big enough "push" to be of concern?  Could this even be a Prosperity-ish non-attack interaction?  City is similar in that, if 2+ other players are pursuing it, you have a much bigger incentive to join in the game as well or be left behind.

Consortium -- Well, you know your random 5 from the start, so you have to decide whether the benefit of +3 cards is worth the risk of potentially discarding down to 3 after.  I can see frustration, but I also see player engagement in the back-and-forth "dialogue".  I guess this is more interaction that most Dominion cards provide -- the Consortium player makes a choice, others respond, then the Consortium responds once more.  Cards like Bishop and Vault create only a single point of interaction, and maybe you prefer that.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2016, 11:05:46 pm »
0

Could this even be a Prosperity-ish non-attack interaction?
Yes, of course it is. I'm just not convinced it makes the game more interesting. And the "multiplayer-mandatoryness" is in fact something i dislike about City.

Cards like Bishop and Vault create only a single point of interaction, and maybe you prefer that.
It would say the card creates a lot to guess about, with very little chance to know what's the right decision (luck, lack of knowledge what others will do), and several people (in order) have to make choices. Do i draw, how much, do you draw, do i discard, to what, what do you discard...

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2016, 12:31:45 pm »
0

Could this even be a Prosperity-ish non-attack interaction?
Yes, of course it is. I'm just not convinced it makes the game more interesting. And the "multiplayer-mandatoryness" is in fact something i dislike about City.

Cards like Bishop and Vault create only a single point of interaction, and maybe you prefer that.
It would say the card creates a lot to guess about, with very little chance to know what's the right decision (luck, lack of knowledge what others will do), and several people (in order) have to make choices. Do i draw, how much, do you draw, do i discard, to what, what do you discard...

Fair enough for both, though I think the Consortium isn't so much guesswork and luck as it is tactical choice.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2016, 05:55:04 pm »
+3

Preliminary Results:

Collector - 13
Consortium - 11
Divdends - 11
Proliferate - 11
Investor - 10
Minister - 10

Metropolis - 9
Trout Stream - 9
Bronze Worker - 8
Trinket - 8
Voucher - 8
Exchequer - 7
Party Time - 7
Prospector - 7
Wealthy Village - 7
Entourage - 6
Grand Canal - 6
Heirloom - 6
Share - 2
Desert City - 1
Piggy Bank - 1
Stampede - 0
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2016, 05:55:57 pm »
0

Note that there are six finalists, due to a tie for fifth in the preliminary round.

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

Submit your votes to me via this forum's messaging system. To vote, give each card a score from 0 to 10. (It is recommended, but not required, that you give at least one card a 0 and at least one card a 10, to maximize your voting input.) The winner will be the card with the highest sum. Feel free to discuss the cards (but not your scores) in this thread.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2016, 06:08:37 pm »
0

Preliminary Results:

Collector - 13
Consortium - 11
Divdends - 11
Proliferate - 11
Investor - 10
Minister - 10

Metropolis - 9
Trout Stream - 9
Bronze Worker - 8
Trinket - 8
Voucher - 8
Exchequer - 7
Party Time - 7
Prospector - 7
Wealthy Village - 7
Entourage - 6
Grand Canal - 6
Heirloom - 6
Share - 2
Desert City - 1
Piggy Bank - 1
Stampede - 0
Dangit, trinket was 2 votes off. I guess for my first ever entry I didn't do too bad.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2016, 06:10:12 pm »
0

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2016, 06:31:52 pm »
+1

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
It's unique, it's cool, and it's not really finnicky and broken.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2016, 06:40:34 pm »
0

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
It's unique, it's cool, and it's not really finnicky and broken.

I think the super fast pile depletion might be broken.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2016, 06:41:18 pm »
0

Man, can people who voted for Proliferate explain their vote? I am genuinely puzzled by this card's popularity.
It's unique, it's cool, and it's not really finnicky and broken.

I think the super fast pile depletion might be broken.

That's sort of my feeling too.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2016, 08:10:17 pm »
0

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

I really like this card.  I tend to like draw-to-X cards in general, and this one seems to be balanced and interesting.  Letting the opponent discard opens up interesting interactions, especially if you play multiples, but it isn't good enough for your opponent to make it underpowered.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

I'm not a fan of this card; it seems a bit too expensive for what it does, and I think it would bring a bit too much AP with not enough benefit to make it worth it.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

I agree with those who say this seems a bit powerful.  Also, we already had a Treasure as the winner of the last contest, and I'd like to see something different.  I like the card idea, though.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

I like this card.  It seems pretty balanced and useful in general.  It compares well (but not too well) with Bank if you've drawn your deck, and it's like a Bank plus Cellar if you haven't, but the fact that it can only discard Treasures keeps it from being overpowered.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

This seems interesting, but I still think it's a bit weak.  You need to play 4 in a turn to gain Provinces, and if you use it for engine parts your opponents get a bonus that stacks very well for them.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

This seems okay, but I don't really like how quickly it empties multiple piles, and I don't like having to gain unwanted cards with my good ones either.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 08:17:37 pm by math »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2016, 08:20:15 pm »
0

Time to look at these cards. I already submitted my vote to Mith, and I think only two cards here deserve the win. The others are okay to pretty not cool.

Quote
Collector
Types: Action
Cost: $4

+1 Action

You may play a Treasure card from your hand.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
Each other player may discard a card.

I like this one for sure. This should win.

Quote
Consortium
Types: Action
Cost: $7

+2 Actions

Choose a number up to 8.  Each player may draw until they have that many cards in hand.  Choose a number down to 3.  Each player who drew discards down to that many cards in hand.

I didn't like this one, then I liked it. Now I don't like it. It's too wonky.

Quote
Divdends
Types: Treasure
Cost: $7

Worth $1

When you play this, gain a Treasure costing less than it, putting it into your hand.

This is really good. I do like this one. If Collector doesn't win, this could instead.

Quote
Investor
Types: Action
Cost: $5

+1 Action

Discard any number of Treasure cards. For each card discarded, +1 Card and +$1.

This is way too good for $5.

Quote
Minister
Types: Action
Cost: $6

All cards cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.
You may gain a card costing up to $4. If you do, each other player gets +1 VP.

I don't really think I like this one. Yes, you get to gain a $5 for free with each play, but I just am not high on this one. I mean, it's okay. It just feels safe.

Quote
Proliferate
Types: Action
Cost: $7

Gain a card costing $3, a card costing $4, a card costing $5 and a card costing $6.

Clarification: Cards are gained one at a time in the order given. If there are no $4 cards, you still gain the other three cards.

This is too wonky and with crazy piling. There's no real theme to this other than gain all the cards.
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2016, 09:49:45 pm »
+3

I'm not sure how much Proliferate really empties piles:

-It costs $7 so you only get it mid-game.
-Every time you play it, you make your deck 4 cards bigger, so you see proliferate less often
-You can get at most one card from each pile.
-Usually that $6 card is a gold, there are lots of $5s to choose from, and the $3s and $4s that you want a lot of are the ones that are already in danger of piling.

I suspect that Proliferate empties piles about as much as other gainers, or cursers for that matter.  And probably less than Stonemason.  Besides which, rushes are fun.

Of course, this all depends on Proliferate's power level, which I'm having difficulty assessing.  If Proliferate is strong, I could imagine everyone going for it and using it to gain Duchies.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2016, 10:11:25 pm »
+1

Some boards, you end up getting Scouts for the $4 cost on Proliferate. Anyway, I don't agree that it empties piles too quickly. I'm pretty sure stonemason is better at that.

Also, Minister should cost $5, maybe even $4.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2016, 10:20:22 pm »
+1

Some boards, you end up getting Scouts for the $4 cost on Proliferate. Anyway, I don't agree that it empties piles too quickly. I'm pretty sure stonemason is better at that.

Also, Minister should cost $5, maybe even $4.
Man, I love Proliferate!
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2016, 10:21:50 pm »
0

I'm not saying Proliferate is too strong, so the fact that it sometims gains Scouts isn't really relevant.  But it gains cards 4x faster than most other gainers.  Only gaining one card from each pile doesn't matter because we're talking about 3-pile endings, so Proliferate is covering all three at once.  $6 is usually Gold so it's less likely to empty, but the $3s, $4s and $5s will be going down fast.  If they are already in danger of piling, then Proliferate just turns it up to 11.  Stonemason is mostly good at emptying its own pile but Proliferate is taking down three others.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2016, 10:48:44 pm »
0

I don't like having to gain unwanted cards with my good ones either.

I think this is one of the coolest things about the card.  It makes you play with cards you might not normally get and you have to figure out how to make use of them.

Also I agree that people are a lot more concerned about the piling issue than they should be.  Like I definitely don't think it's worse than Stonemason there.

What I love about Proliferate is that it's so simple, makes use of only very basic mechanics, but accomplishes something that hasn't been done yet.  It will play out in a totally different way from almost any other existing card.  And it's super Prosperity, because it's just a huge gainer, like how King's Court is a huge throne room and Forge is a huge trasher and Expand is a huge remodeler.

I'm not saying Proliferate is too strong, so the fact that it sometims gains Scouts isn't really relevant.  But it gains cards 4x faster than most other gainers.  Only gaining one card from each pile doesn't matter because we're talking about 3-pile endings, so Proliferate is covering all three at once.  $6 is usually Gold so it's less likely to empty, but the $3s, $4s and $5s will be going down fast.  If they are already in danger of piling, then Proliferate just turns it up to 11.  Stonemason is mostly good at emptying its own pile but Proliferate is taking down three others.

Proliferate's price makes a huge difference.  It gains four cards at a time, whereas Stonemason gains only two, plus its on-buy.  But you probably don't get more than one Proliferate, whereas you often get several Stonemasons without even trying.  Plus Stonemason pushes you to get lots of cards even when you're not thrilled about playing Stonemason or having it in your deck.  And it's piling issues are bigger because it gives you a lot of control over when it happens.  Anyone can empty piles whenever they want because Stonemason gains so much stuff even with its on-buy.  Proliferate only gains stuff on play, and since your deck is now huge, you don't really know when you're going to be able to do it, so you might not be able to threaten piles when you want to.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Voting!)
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2016, 12:05:21 am »
0

I don't like having to gain unwanted cards with my good ones either.

I think this is one of the coolest things about the card.  It makes you play with cards you might not normally get and you have to figure out how to make use of them.

Also I agree that people are a lot more concerned about the piling issue than they should be.  Like I definitely don't think it's worse than Stonemason there.

What I love about Proliferate is that it's so simple, makes use of only very basic mechanics, but accomplishes something that hasn't been done yet.  It will play out in a totally different way from almost any other existing card.  And it's super Prosperity, because it's just a huge gainer, like how King's Court is a huge throne room and Forge is a huge trasher and Expand is a huge remodeler.

I'm not saying Proliferate is too strong, so the fact that it sometims gains Scouts isn't really relevant.  But it gains cards 4x faster than most other gainers.  Only gaining one card from each pile doesn't matter because we're talking about 3-pile endings, so Proliferate is covering all three at once.  $6 is usually Gold so it's less likely to empty, but the $3s, $4s and $5s will be going down fast.  If they are already in danger of piling, then Proliferate just turns it up to 11.  Stonemason is mostly good at emptying its own pile but Proliferate is taking down three others.

Proliferate's price makes a huge difference.  It gains four cards at a time, whereas Stonemason gains only two, plus its on-buy.  But you probably don't get more than one Proliferate, whereas you often get several Stonemasons without even trying.  Plus Stonemason pushes you to get lots of cards even when you're not thrilled about playing Stonemason or having it in your deck.  And it's piling issues are bigger because it gives you a lot of control over when it happens.  Anyone can empty piles whenever they want because Stonemason gains so much stuff even with its on-buy.  Proliferate only gains stuff on play, and since your deck is now huge, you don't really know when you're going to be able to do it, so you might not be able to threaten piles when you want to.

I guess it needs testing, but I'm still convinced that Proliferate's piling is far less healthy for the game than Stonemason, though I'm having trouble articulating while.  Part of it may be tied to Engineer's Secret History blurb.  You guys are suggesting that the pile-emptying is incidental, which is a thing that was removed from Engineer because it was incidental.  Proliferate is like that, but with 4 piles instead of 1.  However, I think that it's dangerous in the other way, where it's very easy to deliberately empty 3 piles.  Either way is bad and I don't think Proliferate can hit the good but narrow middle ground with the Prosperity-sized numbers it uses.

Also, while you say that we're making too big a deal about the piling, I'll say that you guys are making too big a deal about the price.  $7 isn't as prohibitive as you guys make it sound.  You can hit $7 fairly early!  And bloating your deck with 4 cards isn't really an issue when you'll be gaining cantrips and draw cards for the engine that Proliferate is very quickly accelerating.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2016, 12:13:55 am »
0

Proliferate is not a good idea. I don't see why this is a debate.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2016, 12:16:16 am »
+1

Proliferate is not a good idea. I don't see why this is a debate.
This entire debate should stop and everyone should go playtest it.
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trivialknot

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2016, 04:40:27 am »
+3

I don't have someone to playtest it with, but we can pick a few random kingdoms and guess how well Proliferate works in them:

Quote
Patrician/Emporium, Tunnel, Urchin, Conspirator, Feast, Cultist, Jester, Minion, Fairgrounds, King's Court, Windfall, Donate, Platinum/Colonies
What a crazy kingdom! There's a Donate/Windfall thing going on.  And Proliferate makes it even crazier.  Forget colonies, just get KC and Proliferate.  Gain Tunnels, Duchies, and Fairgrounds all in one go.

Quote
Courtyard, Catapult/Rocks, Chancellor, Armory, Magpie, Apprentice, Mint, Rebuild, Trading Post, Adventurer
Ah, Rebuild is probably too fast for Proliferate to matter.  Otherwise, there is some synergy with Apprentice and Catapult!

Quote
Herbalist, Patrician/Emporium, Ratcatcher, Sage, Ghost Ship, Harem, Possession, Bank, Overlord, Blacksmith, Tower, Platinum/Colonies
There's no $4 card to gain, and you probably don't want too many Ghost Ships when there are no villages.  But Sage could help with Emporium, and Harem gives the option of gaining 5 VP per play, possibly more with Tower.  Could be decent.

Quote
Hamlet, Stonemason, Masquerade, Messenger, Navigator, Treasure Map, Bandit Camp, Duke, Journeyman, Merchant Guild
There's a draw engine going on, but somewhat weak.  Proliferate won't help build it since it forces you to pick up stop cards.  But it gains lots of payoff cards, and could help with a Duke strategy.

Overall conclusion: Proliferate is probably pretty strong.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2016, 08:59:30 pm »
0

i gave proliferate a 10 and i didn't even think about fairgrounds. what am i even doing here
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2016, 10:03:16 pm »
+1

They've been discussed a lot already, but my favourites are Collector and Consortium.  I think Dividends is kind of boring.  Investor is too similar to Bank for my taste (I preferred Bronze Worker with its Copper restriction).  I think Minister is alright, and I think Proliferate will be broken.

i gave proliferate a 10 and i didn't even think about fairgrounds. what am i even doing here

It's not too late to take it back. :P
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2016, 10:15:17 pm »
0

I have a hard time choosing between Collector, Investor, and Minister as my favorite. I mentioned I like Consortium more than I used to, but still not enough to be one of my favorites. I agree Dividends seems kinda boring.
I don't understand how Proliferate got to be a finalist.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 10:18:32 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2016, 07:47:13 am »
0

I think Proliferate is a weird but interesting idea. Not sure i'd pick it as a Prosperity representative, but beyond that i don't get where the hate comes from.
I dislike how Collector draws players into mirrors with it's all-too-obvious self-interaction, but it's nice beyond that.
Consortium still is an AP-inducing and semi-political guessing game in my opinion.
Dividends is nice, but probably a bit cheap. It would work better if it gave $0, so it's a Gold that gains Gold.
Nothing bad to say about Investor.
Minister looks worse than it is, which makes it a poor pick to send into this contest. I still think it's decently balanced, but i can't blame anybody for thinking it looks weak. Also it might have a little too much going on.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2016, 11:07:57 am »
0

Voting will end at the same time as the Landmark submissions close. (Which may be slightly delayed - my sister is scheduled to be induced on Thursday, if baby doesn't come before that.) I'll send reminders out today or tomorrow.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2016, 03:55:16 pm »
0

Revised deadline is Monday.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2016, 12:00:28 pm »
+1

Results:

Collector (trivialknot) - 91
Proliferate (spiralstaircase) - 62
Investor (math) - 58
Minister (Asper) - 56
Consortium (eHalcyon) - 52
Dividends (ConMan) - 45

Congrats to trivialknot, running away with this one!
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2016, 12:22:23 pm »
+1

Congrats trivialknot! I'm glad Collector made it. :)
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Finalists!)
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2016, 12:32:11 pm »
+3

Yay I won!    ;D

I tried not to say much about my own card when it was being discussed, but I'll add a few thoughts now.  I designed Collector specifically in response to the competition, and had not shared it elsewhere.  The basic idea is to combine two things that normally can't go together--a draw-to-X card, and a lab.  At some point, I had considered making it draw-to-5, or having it discard a treasure for $1.  But I like playing the treasure because it inspires you to make use of all those alternate treasures in Prosperity.  The Collector-Quarry-Workshop combos probably aren't actually that common, but they're fun to think about.

I have no particular attachment to the name.  I was thinking Collector as in a coin collector.

I was surprised how much people discussed the interactive part of it--where each opponent may discard a card.  Mostly I thought it was a cute interaction between players, and you know, put those wherever you can.

I haven't tested it, so I'm not sure how powerful it is.  However, my instinct is that if I had the choice to nerf or buff it, I would buff it.  The main point of comparison is Advisor, which can hurt you if you only have a few, but can draw your deck when you have a lot.  Collectors are similar--if you have a few they act like cantrips, but if you have many they're like cheaper labs.  However, Collector seems tougher to pull off, since you need a more treasure-dense deck, and it might just choke on three greens.  On the plus side, it has the usual draw-to-X synergies--native villages, warehouses, villas, etc.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)
« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2016, 03:06:59 pm »
+1

Congratulations on the victory, trivialknot. Collector is a fine card and nicely combines several themes of Prosperity.

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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)
« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2016, 03:18:59 pm »
+2

Well done trivialknot.

When the contest started, I'd jotted down a list of ideas for each expansion, and given thought (and in some cases even a bit of playtesting) to each one.  When this came up, I realised I'd forgotten Prosperity.  Profiterole was just the first thing that came to mind.  I didn't expect it to be so controversial.
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)
« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2016, 05:45:40 pm »
+1


Congrats!
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Re: 2016 Treasure Chest Design Contest - Part 7: Prosperity (Results!)
« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2016, 12:30:57 am »
+1

Congratulations trivialknot! Your card is a solid winner, and provides a good balance of Prosperity themes, especially in combination with Indulgence from the previous contest.

My entry was Dividends, and I knew it was not going to have a great chance but I was happy to see it make the run-off vote. After all, it was almost exactly the same card I'd entered in the previous Prosperity contest, with a single difference - changing its price from $6 to $7. And I do enjoy seeing how the discussion changed on it due to that change. Still, I think it's a solid card, if not a mind-blowing one (and I would be interested in seeing whether it would be a fairer card without the +$1, but I assume that at some point its utility as a Gold-gainer loses its shine).
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