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scott_pilgrim

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Simple Rules Questions
« on: June 12, 2016, 02:40:00 am »
+2

I just want to double-check that all of these are right.  In all cases, I bought Travelling Fair earlier in the turn.

1. I buy Border Village and gain Bridge.  I can put them on top of my deck in either order (because Border Village's effect is on gain, not on buy).
2. I buy Stonemason, overpaying, gaining BV then Bridge and BV then Procession.  Depending on the gain order, I can do (BV and Procession) in any order, and (BV and Bridge) in any order, and I could have switched those two groups if I wanted (I could have done (BV and Bridge) then (BV and Procession)), but if the Stonemason's going on top of my deck, he's the last to go, since the overpay effect happens on buy.  I couldn't finish with an ordering like BV-BV-Bridge-Procession (if the BV's are consecutive they have to be in the middle).
3. A Haggler wants to join in on this party.  I can resolve it before or after the Stonemason overpay effect.  So I can go like Poor House-((BV-Procession)-(BV-Bridge))-Stonemason or ((BV-Procession)-(BV-Bridge))-Poor House-Stonemason, where the parentheses denote that I can choose the ordering of the stuff inside them.  These are my only options.
4. If I am doing some shenanigans involving Stonemason, BV, Haggler, etc., I can choose to put anything I want in my discard pile and anything else on top of my deck.  There's nothing stopping me from putting some on top of my deck and some in my discard pile (barring Nomad Camp and Villa).
5. If I gain Villa, it goes to my hand, assuming that's where I want it.  I could also choose to have it go to the top of my deck.  I could not choose to have it go to my discard pile.
6. Hagglers gain stuff from cards bought via Black Market.
7. Bridge reduces the cost of cards in the Black Market.
8. Are there any official rules for setting up the Black Market with split piles?
9. Cards bought from the Black Market end up on top of their Haggler gains.

I think that's all for now, but I might come up with more later.
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werothegreat

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 10:35:10 am »
+1

8. Are there any official rules for setting up the Black Market with split piles?

Nope.

Everything else looks fine.  Just remember that if you choose to put Border Village in your discard or on your deck first, then its gain on top of it, you have lost track of Border Village (matters for Summon).
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 10:54:01 am »
+1

8. Are there any official rules for setting up the Black Market with split piles?

Nope.
I think it would work like knights, so there would be one of every castle, and one of each half of the split piles. It seems right in my head, but I'm not sure.
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florrat

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 11:01:00 am »
+3

1. I buy Border Village and gain Bridge.  I can put them on top of my deck in either order (because Border Village's effect is on gain, not on buy).
I think this is already false (so 2 and 3 are as well). I cannot get Border Village on top of the Bridge because of the lose-track rule.

I buy Border Village.
I gain Border Village (move it to discard pile).
Two on-gain effects happen, I can choose which one happens first. I can first move my Border Village to the top of the deck or first gain a card with Border Village.
Let's gain a card with Border Village first.
I gain a Bridge (move it to discard pile, covering up Border Village, meaning that Travelling Fair has lost track of Border Village)
I can now optionally move Bridge to the top of deck.
For the Border Village gain, 1 effect has been resolved, and the other does nothing anymore because of the lose-track rule, so I cannot but Border Village on top of my deck.
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florrat

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2016, 11:03:10 am »
+2

I think it would work like knights, so there would be one of every castle, and one of each half of the split piles. It seems right in my head, but I'm not sure.
At most 1 Knight goes into the Black Market deck, not multiple of them.
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dane-m

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2016, 01:09:16 pm »
+1

1. I buy Border Village and gain Bridge.  I can put them on top of my deck in either order (because Border Village's effect is on gain, not on buy).
I think this is already false (so 2 and 3 are as well). I cannot get Border Village on top of the Bridge because of the lose-track rule.
Which is relevant because 'no visiting' does not apply to Travelling Fair:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg600712#msg600712
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Jeebus

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2016, 01:11:00 pm »
+1

8. Are there any official rules for setting up the Black Market with split piles?

Nope.

Well, the rule is that you only put one card from each pile in the Black Market deck. You can choose that card randomly or however you wish.

Doom_Shark

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2016, 01:17:35 pm »
0

I think it would work like knights, so there would be one of every castle, and one of each half of the split piles. It seems right in my head, but I'm not sure.
At most 1 Knight goes into the Black Market deck, not multiple of them.
I was on the wiki once, and somewhere on the black market page it mentioned that all knights go into the black market deck because they are each different cards.

Edit: nevermind, I just looked at the wiki, you are right. So I guess one castle would be added, determined randomly, and only one of the two different cards from the split piles.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 01:19:24 pm by Doom_Shark »
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werothegreat

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2016, 03:37:22 pm »
0

8. Are there any official rules for setting up the Black Market with split piles?

Nope.

Well, the rule is that you only put one card from each pile in the Black Market deck. You can choose that card randomly or however you wish.

While you're here, Jeebus, I added Empires stuff to the Triggered Effects page.  Want to glance at them and make sure everything's correct?  I promise not to willy nilly revert any changes you make.
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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2016, 09:15:28 pm »
0

While you're here, Jeebus, I added Empires stuff to the Triggered Effects page.  Want to glance at them and make sure everything's correct?  I promise not to willy nilly revert any changes you make.

Sure, but I first want to do that categorization for my own document, and I haven't gotten that far yet. (I'm sure AJD could do it too though.)

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2016, 01:27:16 am »
0

1b. I actually came to that conclusion originally but then I couldn't figure out how I got it, but it makes sense again.  So I can still do BV first on top, then Bridge on top of that, right?
3b. When I gain stuff from Haggler buys, I can still top-deck everything, and the bought card ends up on top.  The same is true if I buy the card from the Black Market with Hagglers in play.
10. Library skips the -1 card token, and just keeps letting you draw until you have seven cards in hand.
11. You cannot overpay for Stonemason by $0.  You can overpay by just P.  You can overpay for Stonemason by $1 or P (or debt?) or more if Stonemason costs $0 because of cost reduction.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2016, 03:53:46 am »
+1

1b. I actually came to that conclusion originally but then I couldn't figure out how I got it, but it makes sense again.  So I can still do BV first on top, then Bridge on top of that, right?
3b. When I gain stuff from Haggler buys, I can still top-deck everything, and the bought card ends up on top.  The same is true if I buy the card from the Black Market with Hagglers in play.
10. Library skips the -1 card token, and just keeps letting you draw until you have seven cards in hand.
11. You cannot overpay for Stonemason by $0.  You can overpay by just P.  You can overpay for Stonemason by $1 or P (or debt?) or more if Stonemason costs $0 because of cost reduction.

1b and 3b. sounds right.
10. Yes.
11. You can't overpay by debt.  It's in the rulebook.
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dane-m

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 05:03:06 am »
+4

10. Library skips the -1 card token, and just keeps letting you draw until you have seven cards in hand.
10. Yes.
The Library doesn't merely skip the -1 card token, it removes it (though that might have been what you meant by 'skipping it') unless you already have at least 7 cards remaining in hand when you play it.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2016, 05:35:58 pm »
0

12. Actions don't get set to 0 at the end of your action phase, right?  If I play 10 Villages, then go to my buy phase and buy Villa, I go back to my action phase with 12 actions?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 05:41:40 pm »
+1

13. Hang on now I have a serious question.  If I overpay by Stonemason to get Villa, Villa says, when I gain it, I return to my action phase.  But I still haven't gained the Stonemason yet from having bought it.  Do I still get the Stonemason, even though it's now my action phase?  Do I just finish resolving everything I had to do because of things that happened in my buy phase, and then after all of that's done, I go on playing actions?  (Edit: same question goes for gaining stuff from buys with Haggler in play, though I would assume this will be consistent with the Stonemason situation.)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 05:47:17 pm by scott_pilgrim »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 05:53:48 pm »
+3

13. Hang on now I have a serious question.  If I overpay by Stonemason to get Villa, Villa says, when I gain it, I return to my action phase.  But I still haven't gained the Stonemason yet from having bought it.  Do I still get the Stonemason, even though it's now my action phase?  Do I just finish resolving everything I had to do because of things that happened in my buy phase, and then after all of that's done, I go on playing actions?  (Edit: same question goes for gaining stuff from buys with Haggler in play, though I would assume this will be consistent with the Stonemason situation.)

Going back to your Action phase does not prevent effects from resolving.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 05:56:05 pm »
+2

12. Actions don't get set to 0 at the end of your action phase, right?  If I play 10 Villages, then go to my buy phase and buy Villa, I go back to my action phase with 12 actions?

Yes.

13. Hang on now I have a serious question.  If I overpay by Stonemason to get Villa, Villa says, when I gain it, I return to my action phase.  But I still haven't gained the Stonemason yet from having bought it.  Do I still get the Stonemason, even though it's now my action phase?  Do I just finish resolving everything I had to do because of things that happened in my buy phase, and then after all of that's done, I go on playing actions?  (Edit: same question goes for gaining stuff from buys with Haggler in play, though I would assume this will be consistent with the Stonemason situation.)

Yes, you still resolve everything.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2016, 06:56:11 pm »
+1

13. Hang on now I have a serious question.  If I overpay by Stonemason to get Villa, Villa says, when I gain it, I return to my action phase.  But I still haven't gained the Stonemason yet from having bought it.  Do I still get the Stonemason, even though it's now my action phase?  Do I just finish resolving everything I had to do because of things that happened in my buy phase, and then after all of that's done, I go on playing actions?  (Edit: same question goes for gaining stuff from buys with Haggler in play, though I would assume this will be consistent with the Stonemason situation.)

Yes, you still resolve everything.

Remember that you'll resolve the other stuff in your action phase, which will be unusual. So if Peddler has reduced its cost to $4 during your buy phase and you want to Stonemason a Villa and a Peddler, you'd better get the Peddler first because it'll revert back to costing $8 (assuming no other cost reduction) when you gain Villa and go back to your action phase. But if you want to Stonemason some Rocks (hey, that's thematic) instead of Peddler with your Villa, you might want to grab the Villa first so you can gain the Silver to your hand.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 11:02:51 pm by chipperMDW »
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AJD

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2016, 08:55:35 pm »
+1

But if you want to Stonemason some Rocks (hey, that's thematic) instead of Peddler with your Villa

Sadly, Stonemason's on-buy only gains Actions.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 11:01:33 pm »
0

But if you want to Stonemason some Rocks (hey, that's thematic) instead of Peddler with your Villa

Sadly, Stonemason's on-buy only gains Actions.

So it does. Well, darn.
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jamfamsam

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2016, 03:15:11 pm »
+2

The official ruling from DXV on the Black Market/split piles question was "Look into your heart."
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GendoIkari

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2016, 03:25:05 pm »
0

Why is this thread pinned?
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Awaclus

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2016, 03:40:38 pm »
+4

Why is this thread pinned?

Because other people can ask their own simple rules questions in it as well.

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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2016, 10:35:12 am »
0

So if Peddler has reduced its cost to $4 during your buy phase and you want to Stonemason a Villa and a Peddler, you'd better get the Peddler first because it'll revert back to costing $8 (assuming no other cost reduction) when you gain Villa and go back to your action phase.

Wait, but if I choose two cards to gain with Stonemason (Peddler and Villa) and they are valid at the point of choosing, it shouldn't matter in which order I gain them. Even if I gain Villa first, return to my Action phase and Peddler costs $8 again, I should still gain it because when I chose to gain it, it cost $4. I have absolutely no idea if this is right. I just want someone to ultimately verify or falsify this.
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Re: Simple Rules Questions
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2016, 10:57:46 am »
+2

So if Peddler has reduced its cost to $4 during your buy phase and you want to Stonemason a Villa and a Peddler, you'd better get the Peddler first because it'll revert back to costing $8 (assuming no other cost reduction) when you gain Villa and go back to your action phase.

Wait, but if I choose two cards to gain with Stonemason (Peddler and Villa) and they are valid at the point of choosing, it shouldn't matter in which order I gain them. Even if I gain Villa first, return to my Action phase and Peddler costs $8 again, I should still gain it because when I chose to gain it, it cost $4. I have absolutely no idea if this is right. I just want someone to ultimately verify or falsify this.

I'm pretty sure chipperMDW is correct, and that it works like this:

When an effect says, "gain a card costing x", that means "choose a card, then gain it". When you gain two cards, you have to first gain one, then the other. Each time you gain one, you first choose, then gain.
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