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Author Topic: Grand Castle question  (Read 6344 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2016, 12:09:54 am »
0

The fact is that the owner of the card, the person who played the card, and the person who has the card in their play area are always the same person in Dominion... at least for now. So until some new card is created that lets you put a card from your hand into an opponent's play area, all these possible interpretations are actually the same thing.

Yeah, I don't think anybody has disputed that?

(Edit: The meaning of "in play" though, matters. Because of that, we need to assume certain unstated meaning on Lighthouse, but as you say, there are a couple of interpretations that work.)

The meaning of "in play" is not in dispute. The only thing at issue here as far as I can tell is who "you" refers to in various contexts.

I was just stating how the issue at the heart of this, at least for me, is that "in play" doesn't mean what I thought before this thread. As I wrote: I assumed that "while this is in play" meant "while this is in your play area" or somesuch.
And the reason I thought that, was the fact that that meaning would actually make Lighthouse etc. work without any further implied meaning of who "you" is. But since it doesn't mean that, we need some further implied meaning.

I'm a little bit confused what you and a few other people are trying to express. You said that you were certain that a hypothetical was wrong, with no explanation then or since. After that a few other people have posted mostly redundant things. Or maybe I'm not getting it.

Of course this post was also redundant. :p

AJD

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2016, 10:38:20 am »
0

The fact is that the owner of the card, the person who played the card, and the person who has the card in their play area are always the same person in Dominion... at least for now. So until some new card is created that lets you put a card from your hand into an opponent's play area, all these possible interpretations are actually the same thing.

Yeah, I don't think anybody has disputed that?

(Edit: The meaning of "in play" though, matters. Because of that, we need to assume certain unstated meaning on Lighthouse, but as you say, there are a couple of interpretations that work.)

The meaning of "in play" is not in dispute. The only thing at issue here as far as I can tell is who "you" refers to in various contexts.

I was just stating how the issue at the heart of this, at least for me, is that "in play" doesn't mean what I thought before this thread. As I wrote: I assumed that "while this is in play" meant "while this is in your play area" or somesuch.

This remains true.

Quote
And the reason I thought that, was the fact that that meaning would actually make Lighthouse etc. work without any further implied meaning of who "you" is.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. This interpretation is a "futher implied meaning of who 'you' is". That's the only thing you've posited here. Saying that "while this is in play" means 'while this is in your play area' is the same as saying that "you"  within the scope of a "while this is in play" refers to the person whose play area it's in. Which is correct.

Quote
But since it doesn't mean that, we need some further implied meaning.

I'm a little bit confused what you and a few other people are trying to express. You said that you were certain that a hypothetical was wrong, with no explanation then or since.

Your inference that "you" within the scope of "while this is in play" would refer to the person who played a card rather than the person whose play area the card is in, in the hypothetical scenario that those could be different, is not well-supported in the text of this thread (even though Donald has said that, in a case where they were likely to be different, he would probably use more specific wording); and your conclusion that this would continue to apply even if it were possible for a card to be in play without anyone having played it is a further inference beyond that and even less supported.  I don't see where your inference that Highway would have no effect in this scenario comes from at all, since its text doesn't even contain "you".
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 10:47:18 am by AJD »
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2016, 04:22:41 pm »
0

I was just stating how the issue at the heart of this, at least for me, is that "in play" doesn't mean what I thought before this thread. As I wrote: I assumed that "while this is in play" meant "while this is in your play area" or somesuch.

This remains true.

Quote
And the reason I thought that, was the fact that that meaning would actually make Lighthouse etc. work without any further implied meaning of who "you" is.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. This interpretation is a "futher implied meaning of who 'you' is". That's the only thing you've posited here. Saying that "while this is in play" means 'while this is in your play area' is the same as saying that "you"  within the scope of a "while this is in play" refers to the person whose play area it's in. Which is correct.

I guess the meaning of "in play" is in dispute after all then. :p

Edit, since I didn't reply according to exactly what you wrote:
Yes, it's the same (but not correct). What I meant was, I thought the meaning of "in play" with no other specification, meant "your play area". I think that's more of an implied meaning of what "in play" means, rather than what "you" means, but no matter. Since it in fact doesn't mean that, we need a further (or another, whatever) implied meaning of who is referred to by the word "you" in the actual ability that is active whenever the card is in a play area.

Quote
But since it doesn't mean that, we need some further implied meaning.

I'm a little bit confused what you and a few other people are trying to express. You said that you were certain that a hypothetical was wrong, with no explanation then or since.

Your inference that "you" within the scope of "while this is in play" would refer to the person who played a card rather than the person whose play area the card is in, in the hypothetical scenario that those could be different, is not well-supported in the text of this thread (even though Donald has said that, in a case where they were likely to be different, he would probably use more specific wording); and your conclusion that this would continue to apply even if it were possible for a card to be in play without anyone having played it is a further inference beyond that and even less supported.  I don't see where your inference that Highway would have no effect in this scenario comes from at all, since its text doesn't even contain "you".

Well, I went with what Donald said. It could also be based on card ownership, but he didn't even mention card ownership.

It could not be solely based on having the card in your play area (only as a result of card ownership, as stated by LastFootnote), because "in play" specifically means "in any play area". In other words, "while this is in play" applies to all players, but the "you" in the text that follows applies to a specific player. According to Donald, that player is the player who played the card. If you say that in "while this is in play", "in play" actually means "your play area", the Grand Castle ruling is very inconsistent. Luckily, Donald's reply did not support that it does.

You're right about Highway. I was thinking about cards like Goons etc, and not thinking about what Highway actually says. :p
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 04:42:21 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2016, 05:19:55 pm »
+1

Quote
But since it doesn't mean that, we need some further implied meaning.

I'm a little bit confused what you and a few other people are trying to express. You said that you were certain that a hypothetical was wrong, with no explanation then or since.

Your inference that "you" within the scope of "while this is in play" would refer to the person who played a card rather than the person whose play area the card is in, in the hypothetical scenario that those could be different, is not well-supported in the text of this thread (even though Donald has said that, in a case where they were likely to be different, he would probably use more specific wording); and your conclusion that this would continue to apply even if it were possible for a card to be in play without anyone having played it is a further inference beyond that and even less supported.  I don't see where your inference that Highway would have no effect in this scenario comes from at all, since its text doesn't even contain "you".

Well, I went with what Donald said. It could also be based on card ownership, but he didn't even mention card ownership.

I don't think what Donald said supports your point.

He said: "Lighthouse's text is addressing a specific player.... It is addressing the player who played it though."

I assume this is what you're thinking of when you say that Donald said the meaning of "you" in the scope of "while this is in play" is 'the person who played the card'. However, that's not actually what Donald said here—he said that the person being addressed is the person who played the card, but not that they're being addressed by virtue of having played the card (instead of by virtue of having the card in their play area). The person who played the card is the person with the card in their play area, so the fact that that person is being addressed—they are the semantic extension of "you" on the card—does not disambiguate what the semantic intension is.

Donald also said: "To be technically correct [cards like Lighthouse] would need to say e.g. 'while you have this in play.'" This is a statement about the intension of how cards like Lighthouse are meant to be interpreted, and is incompatible with your hypothesis that a Lighthouse somehow placed in play without anyone playing it would not protect its owner. If you want you can consider this a miswording like the text of Nomad Camp; I don't agree with you on that, but I don't think the ruling is ambiguous in any case.

Quote
It could not be solely based on having the card in your play area (only as a result of card ownership, as stated by LastFootnote), because "in play" specifically means "in any play area". In other words, "while this is in play" applies to all players, but the "you" in the text that follows applies to a specific player. According to Donald, that player is the player who played the card.

The player who played the card is the player whose play area it's in.

Quote
If you say that in "while this is in play", "in play" actually means "your play area", the Grand Castle ruling is very inconsistent.

Grand Castle doesn't say "while this is in play".

But I continue to insist that what's at issue here is not the meaning of "in play" but the meaning of "you", because I think you're equivocating on whether "you" is to be treated as a bound or free variable (roughly speaking). The difference between "while this is in play" and "while this is in your play area" as a statement of when a card ability is active is not in the condition that they establish, but in how the pronoun "you" is bound. The latter explicitly defines "you" (i.e., identifies the person being addressed) as the person with Lighthouse in their play area; and then "you" showing up later in the text would be bound to that definition. The real text of Lighthouse, as you note, doesn't make that explicit definition of the variable, and so then when "you" shows up under the scope of "while this is in play" it's as an unbound pronoun and we need to figure out who it refers to; and the convention or implication is that it refers to the person whose play area it's in.

Contrast this with Grand Castle. Grand Castle says "when you gain this"—thus defining "you" as referring to the person who gains the card, and any future occurrences of "you" in the card text are bound to that referent of "you". In this context, "in play" and "in your play area" have very different meanings, because which "you" is already a bound variable—i.e., because the referent of "you" has already been defined.

But on Lighthouse, "when this is in play" and "when this is in your play area" have the same functional meaning, because the referent of "you" is not yet bound to a specific player.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 05:22:02 pm by AJD »
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AJD

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2016, 05:27:03 pm »
+1

(I'm a sociophonetician, but here I am trying to talk about semantics. Well, so it goes.)
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Kirian

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2016, 05:39:21 pm »
0

The fact is that the owner of the card, the person who played the card, and the person who has the card in their play area are always the same person in Dominion... at least for now. So until some new card is created that lets you put a card from your hand into an opponent's play area, all these possible interpretations are actually the same thing.

Yeah, I don't think anybody has disputed that?

(Edit: The meaning of "in play" though, matters. Because of that, we need to assume certain unstated meaning on Lighthouse, but as you say, there are a couple of interpretations that work.)

The meaning of "in play" is not in dispute. The only thing at issue here as far as I can tell is who "you" refers to in various contexts.

Paging Bill Clinton...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2016, 06:13:44 pm »
+2

"In play" means: in the play area of any player. "You" on wihle-in-play effects refers to the player whose play area the card is in. This is not rocket science.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2016, 08:45:50 pm »
0


Ok, I think I understand now, and I grant you that what you're saying works too.

You're saying that "you" on Lighthouse could refer to "the player whose play area this is in". So you're saying this, I think: Lighthouse says that while it's in the play area of any player, the player whose play area it's in, gets the effect. Well, it's certainly not intuitive, but as I said, it works, and with a consistent definition of "in play". (Although it kind of seems like it's inconsistent, it's not when you look hard and squint.)

"You" could still be the player who owns the card or the player who played it. (I don't see that your argumentation supports a claim that it couldn't.) But the second quote from Donald seems to support your definition.

Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2016, 11:48:22 pm »
+3

"In play" means: in the play area of any player. "You" on wihle-in-play effects refers to the player whose play area the card is in. This is not rocket science.
Correct, except, it is equivalent and I think simpler to think of it as, "while this is in play" is implicitly "while you have this in play" (though this would be confusing on cards that don't refer to "you," e.g. Highway).

Again I am not sure if being explicit would be better there; maybe. Again it hasn't caused questions prior to this.

It is a dead-end to talk about "what if a card ends up in play without it being anyone's card." In case anyone thinks of it, I am also not too interested in, what if I play a Lighthouse and then eat it?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2016, 09:24:55 am »
+4

How did the FDA let you get away with not printing the nutritional value of the cards on the box?

Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2016, 10:22:29 am »
+1

It is a dead-end to talk about "what if a card ends up in play without it being anyone's card."

I don't think anyone asked that in this thread. The question that was asked was, what if a card ends up being in play without being played. Not too crazy, considering Reserve cards. Of course, no Reserve cards currently exist with "while this is in play". But hypotheticals can sometimes help us to arrive at an understanding of the actual current rule. I think people are going to continue to employ them for that reason.

SuperHans

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2016, 10:24:26 am »
+2

How did the FDA let you get away with not printing the nutritional value of the cards on the box?
I can't believe they changed the recipe for the Adventures cards.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2016, 12:51:53 pm »
+5

In case anyone thinks of it, I am also not too interested in, what if I play a Lighthouse and then eat it?

But you've ruled in the past that sometimes you have to play until everyone starves to death. In these games, I think eating a Lighthouse could be relevant.
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