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werothegreat

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Grand Castle question
« on: June 12, 2016, 12:05:40 am »
+4

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 12:07:35 am »
0

Yes, that is the (edge) case.
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Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 12:18:26 am »
+6

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 01:21:18 pm »
+1

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.

So if I have my Estate token on a Fishing Village (or other Duration), and you buy Grand Castle, you get +1 VP for every Estate I have in play? I would have thought "in your hand and/or in play" was short for "that you have in your hand and/or have in play". That's just the common sense interpretation (according to my sense of English), but I guess you're going for the literal parsing here.

Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2016, 07:55:09 pm »
0

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.

So if I have my Estate token on a Fishing Village (or other Duration), and you buy Grand Castle, you get +1 VP for every Estate I have in play? I would have thought "in your hand and/or in play" was short for "that you have in your hand and/or have in play". That's just the common sense interpretation (according to my sense of English), but I guess you're going for the literal parsing here.
I have chosen to go with the literal interpretation.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2016, 09:11:48 pm »
0

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.

So if I have my Estate token on a Fishing Village (or other Duration), and you buy Grand Castle, you get +1 VP for every Estate I have in play? I would have thought "in your hand and/or in play" was short for "that you have in your hand and/or have in play". That's just the common sense interpretation (according to my sense of English), but I guess you're going for the literal parsing here.
I have chosen to go with the literal interpretation.

I see. That made me wonder about "in play" though.

If "in play" considers all play areas (rather than just the player who is addressed by the ability), what makes Lighthouse just work for the player who has it in play, rather than all the players? I mean, a card with "when you buy/gain this" works for any player. Why doesn't "when another player plays an Attack card" work for any player in the same way (as long as Lighthouse is "in play")?

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2016, 09:54:42 pm »
+1

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.

So if I have my Estate token on a Fishing Village (or other Duration), and you buy Grand Castle, you get +1 VP for every Estate I have in play? I would have thought "in your hand and/or in play" was short for "that you have in your hand and/or have in play". That's just the common sense interpretation (according to my sense of English), but I guess you're going for the literal parsing here.
I have chosen to go with the literal interpretation.

I see. That made me wonder about "in play" though.

If "in play" considers all play areas (rather than just the player who is addressed by the ability), what makes Lighthouse just work for the player who has it in play, rather than all the players? I mean, a card with "when you buy/gain this" works for any player. Why doesn't "when another player plays an Attack card" work for any player in the same way (as long as Lighthouse is "in play")?


Cause it explicitly says: 'doesn't affect you'?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2016, 10:34:03 pm »
0

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.

So if I have my Estate token on a Fishing Village (or other Duration), and you buy Grand Castle, you get +1 VP for every Estate I have in play? I would have thought "in your hand and/or in play" was short for "that you have in your hand and/or have in play". That's just the common sense interpretation (according to my sense of English), but I guess you're going for the literal parsing here.
I have chosen to go with the literal interpretation.

I see. That made me wonder about "in play" though.

If "in play" considers all play areas (rather than just the player who is addressed by the ability), what makes Lighthouse just work for the player who has it in play, rather than all the players? I mean, a card with "when you buy/gain this" works for any player. Why doesn't "when another player plays an Attack card" work for any player in the same way (as long as Lighthouse is "in play")?


Cause it explicitly says: 'doesn't affect you'?

This sounds right. "Another player" is defined as "a player other than the player who played this card." And "you" is defined as "the player who played this card." So Lighthouse reads as:

"While this is in play, when a player other than the player who played this card plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect the player who played this card."
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Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2016, 10:56:20 pm »
+2

If "in play" considers all play areas (rather than just the player who is addressed by the ability), what makes Lighthouse just work for the player who has it in play, rather than all the players? I mean, a card with "when you buy/gain this" works for any player. Why doesn't "when another player plays an Attack card" work for any player in the same way (as long as Lighthouse is "in play")?
Lighthouse's text is addressing a specific player. It's fair to say, how do we know which player is being addressed? It's not as clear as it could be, probably because it never confused anyone ever in that form. It is addressing the player who played it though.

It would be reasonable to make a card that more specifically cared about cards in play no matter whose cards they were; a duration card could have such an ability where the card itself was making sure the situation could come up (so that there was any point to it). Probably it would clarify in parentheses that everyone's copies counted, because that would be a common question. It's probably not a common question with Grand Castle.

I considered this with Grand Castle when working on it - that technically it counted other players' cards - and decided that that was okay.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2016, 11:40:06 pm »
0

Ok, I understand that the intention of Lighthouse is to address the player who played it, so it's kind of like an unwritten clause there that amounts to more or less what GendoIkari said.

I don't mean to keep an argument about this going. But I do want to say that it's wrong to say that this is explicitly stated on Lighthouse. There is no clear connection between the play ability and the when-in-play ability. As I said, "when you buy/gain" is addressing "you" without it meaning the player who played the card (and of course nobody played it). We could imagine a card "Hands" that moves a card "Hot Potato" from one player's play area to another, and Hot Potato saying "while you have this in play, when you buy a card, gain a Curse" or something. On that card "you" does not mean "the player who played this card". There's nothing in the known rules of Dominion prohibiting such a card from existing. (Of course, there could be a rule as-of-yet unstated by Donald prohibiting it.)

eHalcyon

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2016, 11:47:03 pm »
0

As I said, "when you buy/gain" is addressing "you" without it meaning the player who played the card (and of course nobody played it).

In that case, "you" obviously refers to the player who bought or gained the card.


We could imagine a card "Hands" that moves a card "Hot Potato" from one player's play area to another, and Hot Potato saying "while you have this in play, when you buy a card, gain a Curse" or something. On that card "you" does not mean "the player who played this card". There's nothing in the known rules of Dominion prohibiting such a card from existing. (Of course, there could be a rule as-of-yet unstated by Donald prohibiting it.)

How do we know "you" doesn't mean "the player who played this card"?  This is all hypothetical, so maybe it does mean that.  Certainly it could also mean "the player whose play area this card is in", but that's not the only possible interpretation.  Surely this would be clarified in the rulebook, or phrased so as to be less ambiguous, or get scrapped during the playtesting process. 

Maybe for cards in play, "you" always refers to whoever's play area it's in; that works fine for Lighthouse too.  But for right now, it doesn't seem like a rule that needs to be made.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 11:48:43 pm by eHalcyon »
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chipperMDW

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2016, 11:48:36 pm »
+1

Grand Castle just mentions Victory cards "in play", not that *you* have in play.  Does that mean that if my Platinum is Swindled into a Grand Castle on my opponent's turn, and he has a Great Hall in play, I should get +1 from his Great Hall, in addition to the from any Victory cards in my hand?
Yes.

So if I have my Estate token on a Fishing Village (or other Duration), and you buy Grand Castle, you get +1 VP for every Estate I have in play? I would have thought "in your hand and/or in play" was short for "that you have in your hand and/or have in play". That's just the common sense interpretation (according to my sense of English), but I guess you're going for the literal parsing here.
I have chosen to go with the literal interpretation.

I see. That made me wonder about "in play" though.

If "in play" considers all play areas (rather than just the player who is addressed by the ability), what makes Lighthouse just work for the player who has it in play, rather than all the players? I mean, a card with "when you buy/gain this" works for any player. Why doesn't "when another player plays an Attack card" work for any player in the same way (as long as Lighthouse is "in play")?


Cause it explicitly says: 'doesn't affect you'?

This sounds right. "Another player" is defined as "a player other than the player who played this card." And "you" is defined as "the player who played this card." So Lighthouse reads as:

"While this is in play, when a player other than the player who played this card plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect the player who played this card."

I think the question is why some abilities (Lighthouse, Goons, Talisman, etc.) operate in a context where "you" means a specific player, while other abilities (Border Village, Farmland, Duchess, etc.) operate in a context where "you" is shorthand for "any player."  And where they get that context from.

Imagine that, someday, there's a way to get any card into play without having played it. "Choose a card in the trash and put it in play without playing it" (don't make that card, Donald).  So, the "while this is in play" abilities should still work in general, right?  I mean, nobody would have any problems with Highway there.  But then what would Lighthouse do?  Who would "you" be at that point?   Do you say "Oh, I guess 'you' is now also the player who puts a card into play"?  Would Lighthouse's ability even mean anything in that case? (Those are rhetorical questions, by the way; not asking for an actual ruling.)

It's almost like stuff like Lighthouse's second ability should actually be above the horizontal line. So they would set up that state while they were still in a context where "you" meant the specific player who played the card.  And if they somehow got into play without being played, no big deal; the state that would refer to "you" never even got set up. (That interpretation would make the Hot Potato thing Jeebus posted while I was typing this not work, though. The Hot Potato would probably have to say "while this is yours" or something.)


EDIT:
Actually, Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag already do things that way.  Above the horizontal line (well, ok, there is no horizontal line), they set up a state that refers to "any other player."  So they do that in a context where that concept is meaningful (because "you" refers to a specific player).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 12:39:13 am by chipperMDW »
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Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 12:38:37 am »
+1

We could imagine a card "Hands" that moves a card "Hot Potato" from one player's play area to another, and Hot Potato saying "while you have this in play, when you buy a card, gain a Curse" or something. On that card "you" does not mean "the player who played this card". There's nothing in the known rules of Dominion prohibiting such a card from existing. (Of course, there could be a rule as-of-yet unstated by Donald prohibiting it.)
On the hypothetical card you provide, "you" would mean the same "you" as "while you have this in play," which thus narrows it down to one player.

There could be a card with a rule that applied to everyone while it was in play (along the lines we mean - there are existing cards that have such rules, e.g. Highway). It would try to be very clear because people would need that clarity to understand it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2016, 12:54:04 am »
+5

I think the question is why some abilities (Lighthouse, Goons, Talisman, etc.) operate in a context where "you" means a specific player, while other abilities (Border Village, Farmland, Duchess, etc.) operate in a context where "you" is shorthand for "any player."  And where they get that context from.
The answer of course is just that I am trying to give cards good wordings, that make it clear what they do and how they interact with other cards. They can't be maximally friendly because interactions wouldn't be clear, but they can't be computer programs because many people would pass on playing that game. No-one has ever asked before "wait who is this you person below the line on these cards." So I think those wordings did the trick and avoided confusing people, hooray.

It has been possible for years to play Royal Seal via Black Market, then Ambassador a card; the question of "wait can I put the card on my deck" has not come up. People get that Royal Seal is talking about them, and that Border Village is talking about them; it's hard to spot that there's a question there to ask.

In my imagination, "you" in what-this-does-when-played is the person who played the card, and "you" is the person reading the card on things that happen at other times (i.e. "any player"). I don't think this is precisely stated anywhere. And it does not work for certain below-the-line things like Lighthouse. To be technically correct they would need to say e.g. "while you have this in play," and then you have to ask, is that really an improvement (repeat speech about friendly texts vs. computer programs). Changing it might create questions - why is this one different, oh do they not work how I thought.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 01:42:01 am »
+1

I think the question is why some abilities (Lighthouse, Goons, Talisman, etc.) operate in a context where "you" means a specific player, while other abilities (Border Village, Farmland, Duchess, etc.) operate in a context where "you" is shorthand for "any player."  And where they get that context from.
The answer of course is just that I am trying to give cards good wordings, that make it clear what they do and how they interact with other cards. They can't be maximally friendly because interactions wouldn't be clear, but they can't be computer programs because many people would pass on playing that game. No-one has ever asked before "wait who is this you person below the line on these cards." So I think those wordings did the trick and avoided confusing people, hooray.

Yeah, that all makes good sense.

So, when I started typing my post that said "I think the question is...", the posts I replied to were the last ones there, and I was trying to explain to those people what I understood Jeebus to be asking about.  And then your post and a lot of other posts happened while I was typing and I posted it anyway.  I guess it probably ended up sounding like I wrote it after your reply and was dissatisfied and said "answer more of this," and that's not what I meant it to sound like.  Sorry if I caused any misunderstanding.
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Donald X.

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 02:08:42 am »
+3

Yeah, that all makes good sense.

So, when I started typing my post that said "I think the question is...", the posts I replied to were the last ones there, and I was trying to explain to those people what I understood Jeebus to be asking about.  And then your post and a lot of other posts happened while I was typing and I posted it anyway.  I guess it probably ended up sounding like I wrote it after your reply and was dissatisfied and said "answer more of this," and that's not what I meant it to sound like.  Sorry if I caused any misunderstanding.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 10:20:07 am »
0

Imagine that, someday, there's a way to get any card into play without having played it. "Choose a card in the trash and put it in play without playing it" (don't make that card, Donald).  So, the "while this is in play" abilities should still work in general, right?  I mean, nobody would have any problems with Highway there.  But then what would Lighthouse do?  Who would "you" be at that point?   Do you say "Oh, I guess 'you' is now also the player who puts a card into play"?  Would Lighthouse's ability even mean anything in that case? (Those are rhetorical questions, by the way; not asking for an actual ruling.)

Well, given what I've learned in this thread, if such a card would someday exist, and it moved Lighthouse or Highway to play, they wouldn't do anything, since they implicitly refer to the player who played the card, not to whoever has it in play. (And so since it's not explicitly stated who "you" refers to on Lighthouse, Highway etc, such a card could probably never exist; it would be too confusing.)

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2016, 10:20:41 am »
0

We could imagine a card "Hands" that moves a card "Hot Potato" from one player's play area to another, and Hot Potato saying "while you have this in play, when you buy a card, gain a Curse" or something. On that card "you" does not mean "the player who played this card". There's nothing in the known rules of Dominion prohibiting such a card from existing. (Of course, there could be a rule as-of-yet unstated by Donald prohibiting it.)
On the hypothetical card you provide, "you" would mean the same "you" as "while you have this in play," which thus narrows it down to one player.

Yes, exactly. I was trying to illustrate (for those that didn't get it) how "you" in while-in-play abilities does not explicitly refer to the player who played the card. Nobody even played Hot Potato. In Lighthouse that's implicit, not explicit. Following the card text literally, "you" below the line on Lighthouse is "any player", as you state here:

In my imagination, "you" in what-this-does-when-played is the person who played the card, and "you" is the person reading the card on things that happen at other times (i.e. "any player"). I don't think this is precisely stated anywhere. And it does not work for certain below-the-line things like Lighthouse.

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been stated, but to me it's self-evident, given the other rules, especially that all play abilities have an implicit "when you play this". That's why I assumed that "while this is in play" meant "while this is in your play area" or somesuch. (Anyway, I've gotten my answer, thanks.)

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2016, 01:23:47 pm »
+1

Imagine that, someday, there's a way to get any card into play without having played it. "Choose a card in the trash and put it in play without playing it" (don't make that card, Donald).  So, the "while this is in play" abilities should still work in general, right?  I mean, nobody would have any problems with Highway there.  But then what would Lighthouse do?  Who would "you" be at that point?   Do you say "Oh, I guess 'you' is now also the player who puts a card into play"?  Would Lighthouse's ability even mean anything in that case? (Those are rhetorical questions, by the way; not asking for an actual ruling.)

Well, given what I've learned in this thread, if such a card would someday exist, and it moved Lighthouse or Highway to play, they wouldn't do anything, since they implicitly refer to the player who played the card, not to whoever has it in play.

I'm certain this is wrong.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 02:36:15 pm »
0

Imagine that, someday, there's a way to get any card into play without having played it. "Choose a card in the trash and put it in play without playing it" (don't make that card, Donald).  So, the "while this is in play" abilities should still work in general, right?  I mean, nobody would have any problems with Highway there.  But then what would Lighthouse do?  Who would "you" be at that point?   Do you say "Oh, I guess 'you' is now also the player who puts a card into play"?  Would Lighthouse's ability even mean anything in that case? (Those are rhetorical questions, by the way; not asking for an actual ruling.)

Well, given what I've learned in this thread, if such a card would someday exist, and it moved Lighthouse or Highway to play, they wouldn't do anything, since they implicitly refer to the player who played the card, not to whoever has it in play.

I'm certain this is wrong.

Oh. I thought it was pretty clear, but maybe I misunderstood something.

On Grand Castle, "in play" means whichever play area (not just the play area of the player being addressed).

So by inference, "in play" means whichever play area also on Lighthouse. Therefore I asked Donald how we know that the ability only applies to the player who has it in play. The answer was that the unstated part of the card is that it's addressing the player who played it.

The answer was not that it's addressing whoever has it in play. I took it to mean that the words "in play" in "while this is in play" are exactly like on Grand Castle, referring to whichever play area. (I mean, why make a ruling on Grand Castle following a literal reading of "in play" if the meaning of "in play" on all other cards is the opposite?)

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2016, 03:02:12 pm »
+1

"While this is in play" refers to the same thing on Grand Castle and on Lighthouse. But Lighthouse says "you". And the only common-sense ruling there is that "you" refers to the owner of the card. If it's your Lighthouse, you're the one who is protected. And if it's in your play area, it's yours, regardless of how it got there.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2016, 03:25:40 pm »
0

"While this is in play" refers to the same thing on Grand Castle and on Lighthouse. But Lighthouse says "you". And the only common-sense ruling there is that "you" refers to the owner of the card. If it's your Lighthouse, you're the one who is protected. And if it's in your play area, it's yours, regardless of how it got there.

Sure, I agree that card ownership would be a common-sense ruling. It's not the explanation Donald gave though.

GendoIkari

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2016, 03:48:43 pm »
+1

The fact is that the owner of the card, the person who played the card, and the person who has the card in their play area are always the same person in Dominion... at least for now. So until some new card is created that lets you put a card from your hand into an opponent's play area, all these possible interpretations are actually the same thing.
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Jeebus

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2016, 04:01:41 pm »
0

The fact is that the owner of the card, the person who played the card, and the person who has the card in their play area are always the same person in Dominion... at least for now. So until some new card is created that lets you put a card from your hand into an opponent's play area, all these possible interpretations are actually the same thing.

Yeah, I don't think anybody has disputed that?

(Edit: The meaning of "in play" though, matters. Because of that, we need to assume certain unstated meaning on Lighthouse, but as you say, there are a couple of interpretations that work.)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 04:05:06 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Grand Castle question
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2016, 08:51:59 pm »
+1

The fact is that the owner of the card, the person who played the card, and the person who has the card in their play area are always the same person in Dominion... at least for now. So until some new card is created that lets you put a card from your hand into an opponent's play area, all these possible interpretations are actually the same thing.

Yeah, I don't think anybody has disputed that?

(Edit: The meaning of "in play" though, matters. Because of that, we need to assume certain unstated meaning on Lighthouse, but as you say, there are a couple of interpretations that work.)

The meaning of "in play" is not in dispute. The only thing at issue here as far as I can tell is who "you" refers to in various contexts.
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