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Author Topic: A Debt-ification Event  (Read 3794 times)

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tristan

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A Debt-ification Event
« on: June 10, 2016, 07:46:08 am »
+1

Prest
Types: Event
Cost: $2
+ 1 Buy
Once per turn: Gain a Kingdom supply card and take equivalent to its cost in plus 2 per its cost in .

Could be restricted to Action cards or to one or several piles which are randomly selected during setup. If it needs a buff the costs of the Event could also be in Debt instead of coins.

I have no idea about the balance. It could be broken as it is stronger for expensive cards. Engineer is a good 3$/weak 4$ so the difference between its costs in coins and in debt is negligible whereas the three are probably roughly worth around 6$ (Overlord is a better Band of Misfits so it would very likely be OK at a cost of 6 coins so the other two cards should have similar hypothetical prices in coins) which is why I chose 2$ for the cost of this Event.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2016, 08:13:39 am »
0

I like it. You just need to specify how it deals with debt-cost cards.
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markusin

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2016, 08:52:22 am »
0

I like it. You just need to specify how it deals with debt-cost cards.

If you want, you can restrict the gained kingdom card to cards costing less than or equal to $6 or $8 or something. This way you can simply restrict the gaining of any potion cost or debt cost cards and be done with it. Also, I would restrict this to gaining action supply cards in order to be consistent with official cards which never mention "Kingdom supply card". Even Obelisk just says "Action Supply Pile".

The concept of the event itself is nice. I think the balance might be okay.
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Deadlock39

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2016, 09:42:30 am »
0

You could just add that you have to take 1 debt per debt in it's cost too.  Then you can pay $2 for a free buy for such cards.

Was making this provide an extra gain an intentional part of the design? I don't think it would be needed.

pacovf

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2016, 10:54:29 am »
+1

I would make it:

Take any number of Debt tokens. Gain a non-Victory card costing up to 1$ per Debt token taken this way.
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LastFootnote

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2016, 11:04:54 am »
+2

Why does it give +1 Buy?
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Nflickner

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2016, 11:55:00 am »
0

This is a great idea.  I agree that I don't think it should give you +buy.  Great name too!  I had to look it up :)
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Kirian

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2016, 12:44:08 pm »
+1

Why does it give +1 Buy?

Thumbing its nose at you?

I agree that I don't think it should give you +buy.

It literally doesn't.  You can't use the +Buy after taking the debt tokens.  If you're then able to pay of the debt tokens with coins... well, you didn't need to use it at all.

I suppose in a game with no other +Buy available, you might pay $2 for +1 Buy.  Which I guess makes it even funnier.
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GendoIkari

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2016, 12:45:55 pm »
0

Great idea.

I'll agree with the previous posts that giving +1 buy is odd. Also, if it didn't give +1 buy, it's probably fine to remove the once per turn restriction.
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Asper

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2016, 09:45:46 am »
+1

It's good that it's once per turn. If it was unrestricted, i could possess my opponent and make him buy a Province per buy he has, as i'm gaining the debt tokens. Also, i could repeat this every time i play Possession (unless he has debt himself).
Edit: Although obviously Possession is an edge case monster and you should not let it dictate your design.

By the way, isn't the concept of "Debtification" already on Capital? I'm asking because it seems this Event makes Capital moot.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:51:14 am by Asper »
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mith

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2016, 12:03:19 pm »
0

If you're then able to pay of the debt tokens with coins... well, you didn't need to use it at all.

Unless it has a Potion in the cost, and you don't have a Potion. (In which case you're basically paying $4 in place of the P.)
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markusin

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2016, 04:01:32 pm »
0

Making it once per turn prevents Curse or Copper pileouts since it gives +Buy. Does it need to give +Buy?
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Ankenaut

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2016, 06:34:34 pm »
+1

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Doom_Shark

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 09:44:52 pm »
0

I agree that it should be rewritten. The thing is, the once per turn is redundant. The debt prevents you from buying more cards. Another thing: This event allows the gaining of any debt cost cards for only . That's a MASSIVE problem. So here's what I think the event should look like.

Quote
Prest
Event
Gain a non-victory kingdom supply card that does not have in its cost. Take equal to its cost in .

Also, as for having it cover potions, Donald himself has said that potions have no equivalent cost in coins, so if you were to make a special case, I would exclude cost cards from the event entirely.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:46:07 pm by Doom_Shark »
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Kirian

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2016, 12:39:04 am »
0

I think pacovf's wording above gets rid of all worries about potions or debt.

I do see how the once per turn is a good thing, thanks to *sigh* Possession.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2016, 12:50:45 am »
+1

Here was my version: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15361.0

Should have given it +1 Buy so that people would complain about that. ;)

I think pacovf's wording above gets rid of all worries about potions or debt.

I do see how the once per turn is a good thing, thanks to *sigh* Possession.

I'd suggest putting an upper limit on it.  The ability to gain an arbitrarily large amount of debt seems like something that should be prevented.  The only situation that exists right now where that's a viable move is (*sigh* again) versus Possession, but even without that it would be good to futureproof.
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tristan

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2016, 02:09:36 am »
+1

I would make it:

Take any number of Debt tokens. Gain a non-Victory card costing up to 1$ per Debt token taken this way.
Great, that's much better wording. I feared that an early Gold for 2$ and 6 might be too good which is why I restricted it to Kingdom cards. But there might be no rational basis for such fear and it is probably most of the times better to go early for a strong 5$ card than for Gold.

I suppose in a game with no other +Buy available, you might pay $2 for +1 Buy.  Which I guess makes it even funnier.
That is a totally unintended consequence so the Event should not provide an extra buy.

I agree that it should be rewritten. The thing is, the once per turn is redundant. The debt prevents you from buying more cards.
True, but with several buys you could trigger the Event several times. No idea about whether gaining two or more cards plus a huge load of debt in one turn is an issue but I think that one should start with a conservative version.

Quote
Another thing: This event allows the gaining of any debt cost cards for only . That's a MASSIVE problem.
Kinda embarassing that I missed the third type of cost precisely for an Event which "debtifies". :-[

Quote
Also, as for having it cover potions, Donald himself has said that potions have no equivalent cost in coins, so if you were to make a special case, I would exclude cost cards from the event entirely.
True. It would obviously be no issue with cards like Alchemist or Apothecary but Possession for 8 is most likely broken.
I also think that the other very expensive Action card, Prince, would be broken. You could buy some cheap Action cards,  once or twice trigger the Event, get one or two Princes, massively go into debt but easily make up for it via Princes that come into play after the second or third reshuffle.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2016, 02:26:45 am »
0

I agree that it should be rewritten. The thing is, the once per turn is redundant. The debt prevents you from buying more cards.
True, but with several buys you could trigger the Event several times. No idea about whether gaining two or more cards plus a huge load of debt in one turn is an issue but I think that one should start with a conservative version.

Triggering the event, as you put it, is buying a card. The only way the above would work is if you are possessing someone, but that is already an issue with debt anyway. I suppose if you wanted to avoid that specific interaction, but I don't think it is worth it.

Quote
Quote
Another thing: This event allows the gaining of any debt cost cards for only . That's a MASSIVE problem.
Kinda embarassing that I missed the third type of cost precisely for an Event which "debtifies". :-[

Dude, it could be worse. It could always be worse.

Quote
Quote
Also, as for having it cover potions, Donald himself has said that potions have no equivalent cost in coins, so if you were to make a special case, I would exclude cost cards from the event entirely.
True. It would obviously be no issue with cards like Alchemist or Apothecary but Possession for 8 is most likely broken.
I also think that the other very expensive Action card, Prince, would be broken. You could buy some cheap Action cards,  once or twice trigger the Event, get one or two Princes, massively go into debt but easily make up for it via Princes that come into play after the second or third reshuffle.

Well, BUYING the event twice isn't a problem, as stated above. Yes, prince might be overpowered to get with this event. Maybe just an upper limit on the cost of the "debtified" card that would solve all of the wierd cost problems and any future wierd costs. Say, $7, so that one could get forge, but, as per the rules, could not get potion or debt cards. Actually, as I say this, maybe $6 is better.
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tristan

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2016, 02:39:24 am »
0

Triggering the event, as you put it, is buying a card. The only way the above would work is if you are possessing someone, but that is already an issue with debt anyway. I suppose if you wanted to avoid that specific interaction, but I don't think it is worth it.
Sorry, another stupid mistake, I forgot that the Event costs 2$.
Not to rationalize this mistake away but I thought about whether the Event could cost . It probably doesn't make a huge difference but it wouldn't be a trivial buff either.
For example if you have 6$ and two buys you cannot buy a 5$ card and Prest. But if the Event costs you could do that.
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Asper

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2016, 06:59:56 am »
0

I didn't realize it was restricted to kingdom cards before. Not allowing debt for Victories is certainly a good thing.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: A Debt-ification Event
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2016, 10:48:51 am »
0

Triggering the event, as you put it, is buying a card. The only way the above would work is if you are possessing someone, but that is already an issue with debt anyway. I suppose if you wanted to avoid that specific interaction, but I don't think it is worth it.
Sorry, another stupid mistake, I forgot that the Event costs 2$.
Not to rationalize this mistake away but I thought about whether the Event could cost . It probably doesn't make a huge difference but it wouldn't be a trivial buff either.
For example if you have 6$ and two buys you cannot buy a 5$ card and Prest. But if the Event costs you could do that.
Not that I'm suggeating this, but even if you were to have the event cost $0, it would still be buying a card. As for having it cost debt, playtest. Try both versions, see if the debt cost is still a balanced card. If it is, great. If not, go back to costing coin.
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