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Author Topic: Question about Donate  (Read 8474 times)

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GendoIkari

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Question about Donate
« on: June 06, 2016, 07:56:31 pm »
0

Is there a way in which the wording is different from:

"Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from your hand, in play or, your discard pile."

Of course it is different if you buy another card or event after buying Donate, but you could always just buy Donate last anyway. Just curious, because I found it a bit odd for the event to have you do normal cleanup, which would involve drawing 5 cards, and then having you basically draw a new 5 later.

My version also allows you to trash Durations that are in play, but that shouldn't really matter.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 08:03:21 pm by GendoIkari »
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singletee

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2016, 08:03:55 pm »
+3

You can reveal Market Squares, Traders, and Watchtowers if they are in your hand.

GendoIkari

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2016, 08:07:08 pm »
0

You can reveal Market Squares, Traders, and Watchtowers if they are in your hand.

Well of those, I think only Market Square matters really. But that just means that Donate is even more powerful than my wording...
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ycz6

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2016, 08:07:46 pm »
0

Being able to trash cards that are in play leads to having to make some weird rules clarifications, and is slightly different in that you can trash things like Haggler and Scheme which have while-in-play or when-you-discard-from-play effects.

Also, I think your wording lets you trash other people's Duration cards?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2016, 08:10:09 pm »
+8

Possession is the reason that Donate's effect happens between turns.
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werothegreat

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2016, 08:12:33 pm »
+3

Possession is the reason that Donate's effect happens between turns.

The real question is, is it worth going in Debt to give your Outpost turn a 5-card hand?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 08:16:24 pm »
+1

Possession is the reason that Donate's effect happens between turns.

Ha, should have realized. And yeah, it has implications for things like Outpost and Expedition too I suppose. I suppose IRL, people won't bother doing normal cleanup.

This also nerfs Alchemist, Treasury, Navigator, Herbalist, Inn, etc.

So woah, I just realized that if you ever force your opponent to buy Donate while possessing him.... that's so ridiculously bad. You get 8 debt, and he gets to trash anything he wants from his deck.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 08:20:07 pm by GendoIkari »
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RevanFan

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 08:50:39 pm »
0

So woah, I just realized that if you ever force your opponent to buy Donate while possessing him.... that's so ridiculously bad. You get 8 debt, and he gets to trash anything he wants from his deck.
Not so. Rulebook specifies that Donate happens between turns, so Possession will not affect it at all.
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ConMan

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2016, 08:58:55 pm »
+2

So woah, I just realized that if you ever force your opponent to buy Donate while possessing him.... that's so ridiculously bad. You get 8 debt, and he gets to trash anything he wants from his deck.
Not so. Rulebook specifies that Donate happens between turns, so Possession will not affect it at all.
Exactly. Meaning that you (the person who played Possession) gets the Debt tokens, then the other person's turn (which you were controlling) ends, the effects of Possession wear off, and then they get to clean up their deck.
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RevanFan

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 09:02:39 pm »
0

So woah, I just realized that if you ever force your opponent to buy Donate while possessing him.... that's so ridiculously bad. You get 8 debt, and he gets to trash anything he wants from his deck.
Not so. Rulebook specifies that Donate happens between turns, so Possession will not affect it at all.
Exactly. Meaning that you (the person who played Possession) gets the Debt tokens, then the other person's turn (which you were controlling) ends, the effects of Possession wear off, and then they get to clean up their deck.
I took that to mean that you take the debt, and then get to clean out your own deck, because you were just playing with their deck. After Possession wears off, you return to controlling your own deck, but it was still you who bought Donate. I may be wrong, but I believe, if you buy Donate while Possessing someone, you take the debt and clean your own deck. So it's basically no better than just doing it on your turn. Maybe I'm mistaken, I don't know.

Also, if you Possess someone, would you pay off your own debt with their coins, or would you pay off their debt with their coins?

I hope Donald looks at this thread.
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Cuzz

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2016, 09:06:39 pm »
+1

So woah, I just realized that if you ever force your opponent to buy Donate while possessing him.... that's so ridiculously bad. You get 8 debt, and he gets to trash anything he wants from his deck.
Not so. Rulebook specifies that Donate happens between turns, so Possession will not affect it at all.
Exactly. Meaning that you (the person who played Possession) gets the Debt tokens, then the other person's turn (which you were controlling) ends, the effects of Possession wear off, and then they get to clean up their deck.
I took that to mean that you take the debt, and then get to clean out your own deck, because you were just playing with their deck. After Possession wears off, you return to controlling your own deck, but it was still you who bought Donate. I may be wrong, but I believe, if you buy Donate while Possessing someone, you take the debt and clean your own deck. So it's basically no better than just doing it on your turn. Maybe I'm mistaken, I don't know.

Also, if you Possess someone, would you pay off your own debt with their coins, or would you pay off their debt with their coins?

I hope Donald looks at this thread.

If you bought Donate while possessing someone, you bought it on their turn, so they get the effect. You are just no longer making their decisions when the effect happens.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 09:15:40 pm »
+11

If you bought Donate while possessing someone, you bought it on their turn, so they get the effect. You are just no longer making their decisions when the effect happens.
More precisely, you cannot buy Donate while possessing someone; you can only choose to have them buy Donate.
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Cuzz

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 09:17:11 pm »
+1

If you bought Donate while possessing someone, you bought it on their turn, so they get the effect. You are just no longer making their decisions when the effect happens.
More precisely, you cannot buy Donate while possessing someone; you can only choose to have them buy Donate.

But of course
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trivialknot

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2016, 09:47:16 pm »
+7

When are the end-game conditions checked relative to Donate (or Mountain Pass)?  Which of these strategies work?

1. I empty 3 piles, and buy Donate.  I trash my deck, getting all the points from Tomb.

2. I buy donate, trash all my Hunting Grounds.  I empty Estates, which are the third pile, ending the game.

These could be winning moves if they work, but I'm guessing that neither works.  The end-game conditions are only checked at the end of each turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2016, 10:33:58 pm »
+3

because you were just playing with their deck.

No, this is your mistake. You do NOT play with their deck. They play with their deck, while you make decisions for them. All card instructions still refer to them, the person whose turn it is.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2016, 11:02:33 pm »
+13

When are the end-game conditions checked relative to Donate (or Mountain Pass)?  Which of these strategies work?

1. I empty 3 piles, and buy Donate.  I trash my deck, getting all the points from Tomb.

2. I buy donate, trash all my Hunting Grounds.  I empty Estates, which are the third pile, ending the game.

These could be winning moves if they work, but I'm guessing that neither works.  The end-game conditions are only checked at the end of each turn.
The end-game conditions are checked at the end of a turn; if the game ends then then between-turn stuff doesn't happen; if between-turn stuff would meet the conditions it doesn't matter until the next turn ends.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2016, 01:42:39 pm »
0

So for the second case, it would still force the game to end on the next turn,* your opponent would just get a chance to take the lead back.  You could know that this can't happen, however (e.g., Pillage). 

*unless they do some weird gain from trash and Ambassador back stuff to piles.
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crj

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2016, 01:54:32 pm »
0

* Or exchange a Peasant or Page.
* Or play an Encampment and avoid revealing a Gold or Plunder.
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Jargonius

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2016, 04:49:17 pm »
0

Also, if you Possess someone, would you pay off your own debt with their coins, or would you pay off their debt with their coins?

What happens in this case?  I'm guessing you would pay off theirs because they would regularly.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2016, 05:41:09 pm »
+2

Also, if you Possess someone, would you pay off your own debt with their coins, or would you pay off their debt with their coins?

What happens in this case?  I'm guessing you would pay off theirs because they would regularly.
When you Possess someone, it's their turn, with you making decisions and taking cards/tokens. The key thing to remember with any Possession question.

So, you can choose to have them pay off their debt; your debt can't be paid off then.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2016, 05:52:16 pm »
0

Also, if you Possess someone, would you pay off your own debt with their coins, or would you pay off their debt with their coins?

What happens in this case?  I'm guessing you would pay off theirs because they would regularly.
When you Possess someone, it's their turn, with you making decisions and taking cards/tokens. The key thing to remember with any Possession question.

So, you can choose to have them pay off their debt; your debt can't be paid off then.

This seems the counterintuitive way for me.  When I possess someone, I gain all tokens now instead of them.  So why wouldn't removed tokens be my tokens instead of theirs?

Or is it still the case that when I 'spend' a Coin Token during the Buy phase of a player I possess, I'm spending theirs and not mine?

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Witherweaver

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2016, 06:02:48 pm »
0

Actually, the Possession errata just says that you gain tokens, it doesn't provide any additional wording on paying/removing/losing tokens.  So presumably you still spend the Coin tokens that belong to the player that you are possessing during their turn and not your own?  In which case, it seems consistent with paying off their debt during the possession turn.
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aku_chi

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2016, 06:03:59 pm »
0

This seems the counterintuitive way for me.  When I possess someone, I gain all tokens now instead of them.  So why wouldn't removed tokens be my tokens instead of theirs?

Or is it still the case that when I 'spend' a Coin Token during the Buy phase of a player I possess, I'm spending theirs and not mine?
My understanding was that you (the possessor) also gain the same tokens that they (the possessed) gain.  So, if you possess someone to play a Baker, they get a coin token (which you can spend) and you get a coin token.  If you buy a card that results in them receiving 8 debt tokens, you also get 8 debt tokens.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2016, 06:04:04 pm »
+3

This seems the counterintuitive way for me.  When I possess someone, I gain all tokens now instead of them.  So why wouldn't removed tokens be my tokens instead of theirs?
Because Possession doesn't do that.

Or is it still the case that when I 'spend' a Coin Token during the Buy phase of a player I possess, I'm spending theirs and not mine?
When you choose to have the player you're possessing spend a coin token, they spend their coin token.

Again it's their turn, you are just calling the shots and taking cards/tokens.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Donate
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2016, 06:04:52 pm »
+1

My understanding was that you (the possessor) also gain the same tokens that they (the possessed) gain.  So, if you possess someone to play a Baker, they get a coin token (which you can spend) and you get a coin token.  If you buy a card that results in them receiving 8 debt tokens, you also get 8 debt tokens.
No, when you Possess someone you get the cards and tokens instead of them getting them; they don't get them.
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