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Author Topic: Empires Rulebook  (Read 111021 times)

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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #225 on: June 10, 2016, 10:21:49 am »
0

My question is, if all the cards are listed in alphabetical order, then why is Royal Blacksmith found where it is?

Probably so that no card notes would span two pages.
But then why is it in the wrong place on the inlay?

We didn't think that art looked "Old."

Well, it could have explained why he's wearing glasses.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #226 on: June 10, 2016, 11:26:55 am »
0

My question is, if all the cards are listed in alphabetical order, then why is Royal Blacksmith found where it is?

Probably so that no card notes would span two pages.
But then why is it in the wrong place on the inlay?

We didn't think that art looked "Old."

Well, it could have explained why he's wearing glasses.

I assumed it was because he was from the future, or had modern glasses delivered to him via time travel.
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Asper

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #227 on: June 10, 2016, 11:53:11 am »
0

My question is, if all the cards are listed in alphabetical order, then why is Royal Blacksmith found where it is?

Probably so that no card notes would span two pages.
But then why is it in the wrong place on the inlay?

We didn't think that art looked "Old."

Well, it could have explained why he's wearing glasses.

I assumed it was because he was from the future, or had modern glasses delivered to him via time travel.

I assumed he was the time traveller, on a quest to deliver glasses from the late 13th century to ancient rome.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #228 on: June 10, 2016, 12:57:00 pm »
+2

My question is, if all the cards are listed in alphabetical order, then why is Royal Blacksmith found where it is?

Probably so that no card notes would span two pages.
But then why is it in the wrong place on the inlay?

We didn't think that art looked "Old."

Well, it could have explained why he's wearing glasses.

I assumed it was because he was from the future, or had modern glasses delivered to him via time travel.

It really seems like for this set Alayna Lemmer went "shit, it's almost the deadline uh let me see what I have on file... Yeah, that works!"
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #229 on: June 10, 2016, 04:43:35 pm »
+2

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #230 on: June 10, 2016, 04:48:20 pm »
+1

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

???
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JW

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #231 on: June 10, 2016, 04:50:30 pm »
0

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.

Edit: As drsteelhammer and Deadlock point out, Possession + strong trashing has the potential to result in stalemates. Donate is similar to Chapel in this regard. Both players will often be aiming for a deck that can't do anything besides play multiple Possessions a turn. So Donate is a problem with Possession in the sense that any strong trashing + Possession is a problem. But blame Possession, not Donate!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 05:12:27 pm by JW »
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SuperHans

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #232 on: June 10, 2016, 04:56:20 pm »
+1

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.
Good guy possessor. Takes 8 debt tokens and let's me trash whatever cards I want.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #233 on: June 10, 2016, 04:57:44 pm »
+2

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.

Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to village-village-possession-possession-possession?
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SuperHans

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #234 on: June 10, 2016, 04:58:34 pm »
0

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.
Good guy possessor. Takes 8 debt tokens and let's me trash whatever cards I want.
Edge case. That's what he wants me to do so that I clean my deck up for him.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #235 on: June 10, 2016, 05:05:07 pm »
+1

I'll say it again: Ban Possession.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #236 on: June 10, 2016, 05:07:41 pm »
+1

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.

Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to village-village-possession-possession-possession?

Yeah... so I am pretty swayed toward the degenerate case here actually. When you can reach a deck that plays more than 1 Possession a turn without falling super far behind, the goal turns into building this up as quickly as possible and then destroying your own economy. You can destroy your own economy instantly with Donate, and leave your deck in debt so your opponent can't use it. If this is mirrored, the game is locked out and you starve to death.


Also... FTFY:
Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to king's court-king's court-possession-possession-possession?

Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #237 on: June 10, 2016, 05:10:44 pm »
0

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.

Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to village-village-possession-possession-possession?

That's what I was referring to.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #238 on: June 10, 2016, 05:12:21 pm »
+2

The problem is... the opponent doesn't even have to mirror it, he just has to kill all his economy aswell the following turn.
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JW

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #239 on: June 10, 2016, 05:19:37 pm »
0

The problem is... the opponent doesn't even have to mirror it, he just has to kill all his economy as well the following turn.

Anticipating this, the player aiming for the multi-Possession deck might keep a single Gold with Donate. If the opponent isn't mirroring on Possession but trashes all economy/gaining, the Possession player can re-buy Silver, morph into a money deck, and win from there. But if both players build decks that can play multiple Possessions each turn, the game will just end in a stalemate.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #240 on: June 10, 2016, 05:28:23 pm »
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It doesn't necessarily have to stalemate if you can get enough of a lead that your opponent can't win on Estates.  You can just keep $2, and pile Estate/Curse/Copper while periodically donating to make sure your opponent can't score any points with your deck.  To do this you have to also maintain the threat of multi-Possessing them so they can't build back up.

drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #241 on: June 10, 2016, 06:43:35 pm »
0

The problem is... the opponent doesn't even have to mirror it, he just has to kill all his economy as well the following turn.

Anticipating this, the player aiming for the multi-Possession deck might keep a single Gold with Donate. If the opponent isn't mirroring on Possession but trashes all economy/gaining, the Possession player can re-buy Silver, morph into a money deck, and win from there. But if both players build decks that can play multiple Possessions each turn, the game will just end in a stalemate.

Oh, I meant that he doesn't have to build up to triple Possession turns, a single one of them is enough. Otherwise the player who donates first can win, you are right.
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Asper

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #242 on: June 10, 2016, 10:33:52 pm »
0

If i can play several Possessions each turn, and my opponent can so, too, i would consider deliberately going into Debt with Donate. It would set up my deck to be only Possessions for my opponent, and as he uses my deck more than i do, while i mostly play his deck, i am better off being the one who has a debt. So i certainly understand why it would create a stalemate - you can not progress during your turn without helping your opponent more, and stalling makes your position stronger. It's a situation where the one moving first loses, so nobody moves.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #243 on: June 11, 2016, 05:12:59 am »
0

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.

Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to village-village-possession-possession-possession?

Yeah... so I am pretty swayed toward the degenerate case here actually. When you can reach a deck that plays more than 1 Possession a turn without falling super far behind, the goal turns into building this up as quickly as possible and then destroying your own economy. You can destroy your own economy instantly with Donate, and leave your deck in debt so your opponent can't use it. If this is mirrored, the game is locked out and you starve to death.


Also... FTFY:
Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to king's court-king's court-possession-possession-possession?

I've thought a bit more about this:

Stalling and Donating all the money is strictly worse than stalling and donating everything but a copper. Your opponent can't do anything with your deck anyway, except buy coppers and curses (and poor houses and Debt stuff), which they would do anyway with their own deck if they kept a copper.

If you are ahead by more than 4-8 points, keeping a Silver's worth probably makes you win. (you slowly win by three-piling and Donating Curses, Coppers and Estates, or three 2-4$ cards as long as the extra economy needed doesn't give your opponent access to more points than just the Estate pile). If you don't have that point advantage, your opponent will probably use your not-completely-dead deck to gain more points than you do and you'll lose, so it's in your best interest to starve to death (nobody likes losing).

Supposing that the players are playing to win, and supposing that starving to death counts at best as a draw, it would be in their interest not to build a stall-inducing Possession deck unless they are going to win after most Estates go to their opponent.

So, I don't see the stall happening a lot of the time. You don't often have both a point lead and the time to buy Possessions while defending that lead.

(the long and drawn-out endgame of such a scenario might offer some small chances for the losing player to build up a sloggish deck with coppers silvers and Estates and lucksnipe a couple of Duchies while their opponent does not. Thus, they unfortunately might not want to resign right away)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #244 on: June 11, 2016, 10:25:03 am »
+1

Oh my. Surely somebody has said it already, but I just realized: Possession+Donate is going to be so degenerate.

It shouldn't be a problem. Donate takes place after your turn, so if the Possessor has the Possessed player buy Donate, the Possessed player gets to decide what to trash.

Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to village-village-possession-possession-possession?

Yeah... so I am pretty swayed toward the degenerate case here actually. When you can reach a deck that plays more than 1 Possession a turn without falling super far behind, the goal turns into building this up as quickly as possible and then destroying your own economy. You can destroy your own economy instantly with Donate, and leave your deck in debt so your opponent can't use it. If this is mirrored, the game is locked out and you starve to death.


Also... FTFY:
Will it be a problem if I donate and trash my deck down to king's court-king's court-possession-possession-possession?

I've thought a bit more about this:

Stalling and Donating all the money is strictly worse than stalling and donating everything but a copper. Your opponent can't do anything with your deck anyway, except buy coppers and curses (and poor houses and Debt stuff), which they would do anyway with their own deck if they kept a copper.

If you are ahead by more than 4-8 points, keeping a Silver's worth probably makes you win. (you slowly win by three-piling and Donating Curses, Coppers and Estates, or three 2-4$ cards as long as the extra economy needed doesn't give your opponent access to more points than just the Estate pile). If you don't have that point advantage, your opponent will probably use your not-completely-dead deck to gain more points than you do and you'll lose, so it's in your best interest to starve to death (nobody likes losing).

Supposing that the players are playing to win, and supposing that starving to death counts at best as a draw, it would be in their interest not to build a stall-inducing Possession deck unless they are going to win after most Estates go to their opponent.

So, I don't see the stall happening a lot of the time. You don't often have both a point lead and the time to buy Possessions while defending that lead.

(the long and drawn-out endgame of such a scenario might offer some small chances for the losing player to build up a sloggish deck with coppers silvers and Estates and lucksnipe a couple of Duchies while their opponent does not. Thus, they unfortunately might not want to resign right away)

It sounds to me like you're describing the prisoner's dilemma but assuming that players will cooperate for mutual benefit.  Your options are to either build a Possession-centric deck or not. If both players do it, they probably starve to death and that's bad, so neither play should do it. If neither player does, then the game can proceed as normal and everybody wins (especially the player who actually wins). The problem here is that if only one player goes for the Possession-heavy strategy, that player will win. So then your options end up being "skip Possession, either have a chance at winning or lose badly" vs. "go for Possession, either draw or win easily". Guess which one players choose?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #245 on: June 11, 2016, 10:54:58 am »
0

Quote
Possession/Donate stuff

Just want to add that being able to play tons of Possessions, and then destroy your economy isn't a new stalemate inducing condition. Donate just makes the second part so much easier/faster.

With slower trashers, usually someone gets lucky and scores some points to stop the stalemate before it can happen.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 10:56:37 am by Deadlock39 »
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #246 on: June 11, 2016, 11:25:06 am »
+15

All the Secret Histories have been added to the wiki.  Working on card scans now.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #247 on: June 11, 2016, 10:45:29 pm »
+3

All the Secret Histories have been added to the wiki.  Working on card scans now.

Awesome, can't wait to see the completed thing. This is including the split card randomizers?

Also, my first post in the forum. Hi everyone.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #248 on: June 11, 2016, 10:58:13 pm »
0

All the Secret Histories have been added to the wiki.  Working on card scans now.

Awesome, can't wait to see the completed thing. This is including the split card randomizers?

Yep!  Those randomizers are lowest priority right now, though.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #249 on: June 11, 2016, 11:01:51 pm »
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All the Secret Histories have been added to the wiki.  Working on card scans now.

Awesome, can't wait to see the completed thing. This is including the split card randomizers?

Yep!  Those randomizers are lowest priority right now, though.

Of course, gotta have the actual cards that are played with looking nice first. Any idea how they'll be made selectable in the wiki?

I mean, Knights, Ruins and Castles have names of their own that you click on, but the naming system for the other multicard piles feature Card1/Card2 as their names.
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