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Author Topic: Empires Rulebook  (Read 111013 times)

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Marcory

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #175 on: June 08, 2016, 09:26:16 am »
+2

In hindsight, I kinda expected there would be more Debt cards and less vp stuff. I'm not complaining, though! :)

Dark Ages only has 3 Looters and 3 cards that interact with the trash (four if you count Fortress), despite those being major themes of the set; similarly, Prosperity only has 3 VP token cards and four cost cards, so it's not surprising that Debt is as infrequent as it is in Empires.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 09:28:20 am by Marcory »
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DLloyd09

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #176 on: June 08, 2016, 09:39:47 am »
0

In hindsight, I kinda expected there would be more Debt cards and less vp stuff. I'm not complaining, though! :)

I hope if we're lucky enough to get more expansions it's a mechanic that gets further explored. I know that's less likely given the physical requirement of the tokens, but I feel like there's a lot more that can be done there!
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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #177 on: June 08, 2016, 10:20:10 am »
+1

In hindsight, I kinda expected there would be more Debt cards
I think what surprises me most in that respect is that there aren't any cards you can buy at strange times, given that the buy-now-pay-later mechanic supports this.

There isn't a debt-cost Reaction you can buy when you're attacked, for example.
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Limetime

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #178 on: June 08, 2016, 10:22:39 am »
0

How does salt the earth interact with rebuild?
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #179 on: June 08, 2016, 10:23:51 am »
0

Those are some holymotherholyfuck cards in that expansion :D
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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #180 on: June 08, 2016, 10:53:51 am »
+1

How does salt the earth interact with rebuild?
What am I missing? So far as I can see, the answer is "it doesn't".

Well, except that VIctory cards that have been trashed by Salt the Earth can't be gained by Rebuild and vice-versa, I guess.
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Limetime

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #181 on: June 08, 2016, 10:55:33 am »
+2

How does salt the earth interact with rebuild?
What am I missing? So far as I can see, the answer is "it doesn't".

Well, except that VIctory cards that have been trashed by Salt the Earth can't be gained by Rebuild and vice-versa, I guess.
This is a strategy question not a rules question.
In a rebuild mirror do you want to skip naming duchies so you can just salt away the provinces?
Does salt the earth help or hurt a rebuild player in a non-performing?
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2016, 10:56:50 am »
0

How does salt the earth interact with rebuild?
What am I missing? So far as I can see, the answer is "it doesn't".

Well, except that VIctory cards that have been trashed by Salt the Earth can't be gained by Rebuild and vice-versa, I guess.
This is a strategy question not a rules question.
In a rebuild mirror do you want to skip naming duchies so you can just salt away the provinces?
Does salt the earth help or hurt a rebuild player in a non-performing?

I think we should ask Mic Qsenoch or Geronimoo. They know all about that kind of stuff.
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dbclick

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2016, 11:04:49 am »
0

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.
Having a bid limit has the upside of making it crystal clear how much to bid to make sure you're winning the bid.
This may prevent analysis paralysis; oh should I bid 13 or 23 or 103? Just bid 40 if you desperately want to win.


As long as you have a deck set up to where you don't need to buy anything the rest of the game, such as with Remodel-family cards, gainers etc., the correct bid would be infinite, since you don't care how much debt you have. Having a limit of 40 is nice since you can just say "I win the bid" and gloat as you take the whole pile of debt tokens (since there are 40 of those) rather than argue about the semantics of number theory and writing down that you have a googolplex+2 debt tokens or some such (yuck ptui, indeed).
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2016, 11:05:17 am »
0

Empires is the most biggest expansion for Gold circlejerking I've ever seen.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2016, 11:07:38 am »
+2

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.
Having a bid limit has the upside of making it crystal clear how much to bid to make sure you're winning the bid.
This may prevent analysis paralysis; oh should I bid 13 or 23 or 103? Just bid 40 if you desperately want to win.


As long as you have a deck set up to where you don't need to buy anything the rest of the game, such as with Remodel-family cards, gainers etc., the correct bid would be infinite, since you don't care how much debt you have. Having a limit of 40 is nice since you can just say "I win the bid" and gloat as you take the whole pile of debt tokens (since there are 40 of those) rather than argue about the semantics of number theory and writing down that you have a googolplex+2 debt tokens or some such (yuck ptui, indeed).

More imprtantly, without the limit, there would be no bid that lets you win guaranteed as the first player bidding, since the second player could simply bid one more.
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Chris is me

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #186 on: June 08, 2016, 11:14:35 am »
+1

How does salt the earth interact with rebuild?
What am I missing? So far as I can see, the answer is "it doesn't".

Well, except that VIctory cards that have been trashed by Salt the Earth can't be gained by Rebuild and vice-versa, I guess.

"It doesn't interact with Rebuild, except for the part where it trashes the cards Rebuild needs in order to work".

Salt the Earth tilts a Rebuild board dramatically. The Engine player can try to burn Duchies to stop the Rebuild player from amassing more than 3. The Rebuild player can mill a Province every turn to end the game faster in a non mirror. It will be bought frequently on Rebuild boards for sure.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #187 on: June 08, 2016, 11:30:57 am »
+4

I don't see how an engine player can burn Duchies? Which engine can buy this five times before the Rebuild player aquires four duchies? To me, it is cyrstal clear that this helps the Rebuild player. Killing availalbe VP is all the rebuild player does anyway, no? This just makes it way easier to end it before the engine player can buy enough provinces.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #188 on: June 08, 2016, 11:53:42 am »
0

Yeah, it's probably very relevant because it's a very good option for 4 coins hands in a Rebuild deck (both vs engine and in mirror - trashing Provinces against engine and mostly Duchies against Rebuild).
I'm no expert, but I don't see it countering Rebuild. Even opening with Salt won't stop your opponent racking in a few Provinces while salting the rest.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #189 on: June 08, 2016, 11:57:18 am »
+6

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.
Having a bid limit has the upside of making it crystal clear how much to bid to make sure you're winning the bid.
This may prevent analysis paralysis; oh should I bid 13 or 23 or 103? Just bid 40 if you desperately want to win.

Having a limit also fundamentally changes the way the Landmark interacts with being the first person to gain a Province. If it had no limit, then the first person to gain a Province could always get the 8 vp; as long as he doesn't need to buy anything for the rest of the game (quite possible in various engine types). With the limit, the person to the left of the first person to gain a Province can always get the 8 vp if he wants.

I'm definitely with Donald, not having a limit would be very yucky; aside from the massive AP involved in engines where you can generate > 40 coins per turn, it leads to "who can name the biggest number" contests in some situations.
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pacovf

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #190 on: June 08, 2016, 12:25:46 pm »
+5

The limit was added so that people would stop bidding yo' mama.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #191 on: June 08, 2016, 12:58:11 pm »
+5

The limit was added so that people would stop bidding yo' mama.

Yo mama's so fat that when you try to trash her with catapult, the catapult gets trashed instead.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #192 on: June 08, 2016, 01:03:22 pm »
0

The limit was added so that people would stop bidding yo' mama.

Yo mama's so fat that when you try to trash her with catapult, the catapult gets trashed instead. your opponent has to discard down to 1 and gain 2 curses!

Needs work, good idea though.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #193 on: June 08, 2016, 01:11:30 pm »
+1

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.

Well, I think that bidding infinity ought to be just as valid as bidding Graham's number.

And of course, the correct response to a bid of Graham's number is Busy Beaver function of (Graham's number).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #194 on: June 08, 2016, 01:57:41 pm »
+1

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.

Well, I think that bidding infinity ought to be just as valid as bidding Graham's number.

And of course, the correct response to a bid of Graham's number is Busy Beaver function of (Graham's number).

No, bidding infinity specifically breaks the rule of "a bid is in the form of a number".
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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #195 on: June 08, 2016, 02:13:53 pm »
0

<pedant>Not so! There are number systems that include infinities.</pedant>
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #196 on: June 08, 2016, 02:52:26 pm »
+4

<pedant>Not so! There are number systems that include infinities.</pedant>

Yes, there are, and fortunately we don't use any of them when playing Dominion.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #197 on: June 08, 2016, 02:53:51 pm »
+1

40 is the buy-it-now price.  You may be willing to pay 40 or even more, but if somebody else pays the buy-it-now price, well, you are out of luck.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #198 on: June 08, 2016, 03:03:35 pm »
0

<pedant>Not so! There are number systems that include infinities.</pedant>

Yes, there are, and fortunately we don't use any of them when playing Dominion.

But does the rulebook specify which number system we're using? ;)

Infinity is too expensive anyway. Infinity -  1, that's where it's at.
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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #199 on: June 08, 2016, 04:03:48 pm »
0

But does the rulebook specify which number system we're using? ;)
It doesn't even specify bids have to be integers. But I don't think anything breaks if someone bids π? Just give them π debt tokens (improvise) so they're still in debt when they've paid $3 and lose the over-repayment when they pay $4, so they might as well have bid 4 in the first place rather than playing silly buggers?
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