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Author Topic: Empires Rulebook  (Read 99805 times)

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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #150 on: June 07, 2016, 05:24:52 pm »
0

I guess we also have Sacrifice, but man, if that were the only source of Village on the board, that would probably be a hard engine to pull off.
On the plus side, the combination of Sacrifice and Fortress would be pretty nifty!
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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #151 on: June 07, 2016, 05:29:34 pm »
+1

If the first Province gained is is on the same turn that triggers the end condition (e.g. 3 pile), does the Mountain Pass bidding still happen or not? (the base rules say to end the game, but the Mountain Pass says to do the bidding after that turn - which rule overrules?)
Look at the rules carefully. The original Dominion rulebook says "The game ends at the end of any player's turn when...".

And "Mountain Pass" happens "after that turn".

After that turn is later than at the end of it. The game ends before Mountain Pass has time to trigger.

(And, when you think about it, this is likely why Mountain Pass was worded in such a way. Otherwise, the person to the left of the current player just bids <40> and gets 8VP for free.)
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dbclick

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #152 on: June 07, 2016, 05:37:39 pm »
+1

(And, when you think about it, this is likely why Mountain Pass was worded in such a way. Otherwise, the person to the left of the current player just bids <40> and gets 8VP for free.)

That's precisely why we had the question when playing the game.

Also, I believe it's worded to trigger between turns so that each player is free to make their own choice during the bidding. Otherwise, when possessing you I just have you pass on your bid and I take the +8VP for 1 Debt in a 2 player game.
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DLloyd09

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #153 on: June 07, 2016, 06:13:57 pm »
+7

Did anyone else notice that on the second page of the rulebook it says (emphasis mine):

Dominion: Empires is an expansion, and cannot be played by itself; to play with it, you need Dominion or the first edition of Intrigue, as both provide the Basic cards as well as the full rules for setup and game play.

Seems to suggest that when the next printing of Intrigue occurs it may just be a regular expansion and not a standalone set.
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Erick648

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #154 on: June 07, 2016, 07:02:39 pm »
0

If the first Province gained is is on the same turn that triggers the end condition (e.g. 3 pile), does the Mountain Pass bidding still happen or not? (the base rules say to end the game, but the Mountain Pass says to do the bidding after that turn - which rule overrules?)
Look at the rules carefully. The original Dominion rulebook says "The game ends at the end of any player's turn when...".

And "Mountain Pass" happens "after that turn".

After that turn is later than at the end of it. The game ends before Mountain Pass has time to trigger.

(And, when you think about it, this is likely why Mountain Pass was worded in such a way. Otherwise, the person to the left of the current player just bids <40> and gets 8VP for free.)
By analogy, Caravan says to draw a card at the start of your next turn, but if the game ends before your next turn, you don't get to draw a card.  Likewise, if you buy Mission and the last Province, you don't get a Mission turn.  Or if your opponent plays an attack and you set aside Horse Traders, but your opponent then buys the last Province, you don't get to return Horse Traders to your hand or draw a card from it.

In short, it's entirely possible to trigger an effect, but then end the game before that effect can be carried out.  Mountain Pass is no exception.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #155 on: June 07, 2016, 07:13:54 pm »
+1

Did anyone else notice that on the second page of the rulebook it says (emphasis mine):

Dominion: Empires is an expansion, and cannot be played by itself; to play with it, you need Dominion or the first edition of Intrigue, as both provide the Basic cards as well as the full rules for setup and game play.

Seems to suggest that when the next printing of Intrigue occurs it may just be a regular expansion and not a standalone set.

Good find! For me Intrigue is already just an expansion; I took the base cards out and put them in Hinterlands.

crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #156 on: June 07, 2016, 07:15:28 pm »
0

Seems to suggest that when the next printing of Intrigue occurs it may just be a regular expansion and not a standalone set.
...and therefore also not a way to be able to play with 5-6 players?

I can't pretend I've done that often, but when you need to, you need to. And you can have two games of Dominion going on at once, of course.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #157 on: June 07, 2016, 08:01:02 pm »
+5

Seems to suggest that when the next printing of Intrigue occurs it may just be a regular expansion and not a standalone set.
...and therefore also not a way to be able to play with 5-6 players?

I can't pretend I've done that often, but when you need to, you need to. And you can have two games of Dominion going on at once, of course.

http://riograndegames.com/Game/419-Dominion-Base-cards

crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #158 on: June 07, 2016, 08:31:34 pm »
0

Well, yes. But you'd want all the basic Treasures and Victories to match... surely?

Then again, maybe the main game is going to get the refreshed base cards artwork sometime.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #159 on: June 07, 2016, 09:47:18 pm »
0

Did anyone else notice that on the second page of the rulebook it says (emphasis mine):

Dominion: Empires is an expansion, and cannot be played by itself; to play with it, you need Dominion or the first edition of Intrigue, as both provide the Basic cards as well as the full rules for setup and game play.

Seems to suggest that when the next printing of Intrigue occurs it may just be a regular expansion and not a standalone set.

I noticed that as well and was not sure what to make of it
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2016, 10:15:44 pm »
0

They sell the Dominion Base cards alone now, so I would imagine they're removing the base cards from Intrigue to cut costs or something.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2016, 11:00:52 pm »
0

(And, when you think about it, this is likely why Mountain Pass was worded in such a way. Otherwise, the person to the left of the current player just bids <40> and gets 8VP for free.)

Err, I don't believe that's true. Pulling from the rulebook: The 8VP is only given out to the highest bidder. This doesn't happen if there is no highest bidder. The other player(s) simply have to bid <40> as well.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2016, 11:10:00 pm »
+3

(And, when you think about it, this is likely why Mountain Pass was worded in such a way. Otherwise, the person to the left of the current player just bids <40> and gets 8VP for free.)

Err, I don't believe that's true. Pulling from the rulebook: The 8VP is only given out to the highest bidder. This doesn't happen if there is no highest bidder. The other player(s) simply have to bid <40> as well.
"Each bid can be a pass, or a higher bid than the previous bid."

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."
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schadd

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #163 on: June 07, 2016, 11:27:44 pm »
+6

It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."
"oh yeah? well i bid infinity plus two"
"my dad can beat up your dad"
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2016, 11:58:32 pm »
0

It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."
"oh yeah? well i bid infinity plus two"
"my dad can beat up your dad"

"Hah!  I got those 8!"
"Yeah, well, good luck buying anything for the rest of the game."
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #165 on: June 08, 2016, 12:16:04 am »
0

Question on Triumphal Arch: If you only have 1 kind of action card in your deck, do you still get a vp award or not?
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #166 on: June 08, 2016, 02:02:33 am »
+3

It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."
"oh yeah? well i bid infinity plus two"
"my dad can beat up your dad"

"Hah!  I got those 8!"
"Yeah, well, good luck buying anything for the rest of the game."
"I can draw my deck which includes two Expands and three Ironworks. I don't need to buy anything for the rest of the game."

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #167 on: June 08, 2016, 02:23:31 am »
0

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #168 on: June 08, 2016, 02:53:17 am »
+10

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?
It's yuck. The problem is it's yuck. Yuck ptui.

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #169 on: June 08, 2016, 03:20:07 am »
0

Well, there's a way to create an infinite amount of $, right?
Surely CelestialChameleon or someone else figured this out.

And we don't want to go through the whole ordeal of someone actually trying to do it after bidding 99999999999D
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SCSN

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #170 on: June 08, 2016, 03:25:01 am »
+22

Well, there's a way to create an infinite amount of $, right?
Surely CelestialChameleon or someone else figured this out.

Empires makes this easy: just create half of the infinite amount and then double it with Fortune.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #171 on: June 08, 2016, 03:31:50 am »
0

Or I could just play an infinite amount of Coppers with Black Market and just play a single Bank during my buy phase.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #172 on: June 08, 2016, 05:43:58 am »
+3

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #173 on: June 08, 2016, 06:29:32 am »
0

In hindsight, I kinda expected there would be more Debt cards and less vp stuff. I'm not complaining, though! :)
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Davio

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #174 on: June 08, 2016, 08:24:26 am »
+1

Mountain Pass is between turns because of Possession. It has a maximum bid because the "correct" bid might be "unbounded."

I don't understand why that's a problem.  Tokens aren't physically limited, and frankly "you can't buy anything for the remainder of the game" is as easy to keep track of as 40 debt tokens is, isn't it?

I guess the difficult case is where the "correct" answer is somewhere in the 100s or 1000s and you don't want to wait for someone to make those calculations.

There can be a case where the correct bid is basically infinite. Having a bid limit seems a lot more elegant than Player 1 bidding Graham's Number, and player 2 bidding Graham's Number +1.
Having a bid limit has the upside of making it crystal clear how much to bid to make sure you're winning the bid.
This may prevent analysis paralysis; oh should I bid 13 or 23 or 103? Just bid 40 if you desperately want to win.
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