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Author Topic: Empires Rulebook  (Read 41293 times)

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minstrel

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #300 on: June 23, 2016, 12:50:59 pm »
0

For the sake of clarity, if a card existed that cost 3 coin and 2 debt, could I use a card such as Armory to gain it. Would I then gain the debt? And if so, could I then pay off the debt potentially in my Buy phase?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #301 on: June 23, 2016, 12:54:42 pm »
+6

For the sake of clarity, if a card existed that cost 3 coin and 2 debt, could I use a card such as Armory to gain it. Would I then gain the debt? And if so, could I then pay off the debt potentially in my Buy phase?

No, for the exact same reason you can't use Armory to gain a Scrying Pool. is NOT "up to ". It doesn't matter whether the Debt cost is anywhere from 1 to anything, the fact that it's there at all makes it not cost less than something that costs only .
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Asper

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #302 on: June 23, 2016, 10:11:17 pm »
+1

For the sake of clarity, if a card existed that cost 3 coin and 2 debt, could I use a card such as Armory to gain it. Would I then gain the debt? And if so, could I then pay off the debt potentially in my Buy phase?

No, for the exact same reason you can't use Armory to gain a Scrying Pool. is NOT "up to ". It doesn't matter whether the Debt cost is anywhere from 1 to anything, the fact that it's there at all makes it not cost less than something that costs only .

Although i understand the misconception here a lot better than with Potions. Potions and coin is just apples to oranges. Debt on the other hand "feels" cheaper than coin. If i can afford to buy a card costing $4, i can also afford to buy a card costing 4 debt, but not vice versa. This, in a "common sense"-way, makes it easy to come to the conclusion debt was just "cheaper coins".

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #303 on: June 23, 2016, 10:33:17 pm »
+2

The best way to think of Debt as a third currency. We have coins, potion, and now debt. It's like traveling to another country. You can't use Canadian money in France.
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Minotaur

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #304 on: June 27, 2016, 09:03:03 pm »
+9

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #305 on: June 28, 2016, 04:11:04 pm »
+1

Although i understand the misconception here a lot better than with Potions. Potions and coin is just apples to oranges. Debt on the other hand "feels" cheaper than coin. If i can afford to buy a card costing $4, i can also afford to buy a card costing 4 debt, but not vice versa. This, in a "common sense"-way, makes it easy to come to the conclusion debt was just "cheaper coins".

I hadn't thought about it, but that's actually true. The Alchemy rulebook even compares gaining potion cost cards with buying:

"when a player uses University to Gain an action card costing up to $5, the player may not gain a card with [P] in the cost. ...
It is just like Buying a card - if a player just has $5, he cannot buy a card with [P] in the cost."


Obviously this thinking doesn't work with debt cost.

GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #306 on: June 28, 2016, 04:26:43 pm »
0

Although i understand the misconception here a lot better than with Potions. Potions and coin is just apples to oranges. Debt on the other hand "feels" cheaper than coin. If i can afford to buy a card costing $4, i can also afford to buy a card costing 4 debt, but not vice versa. This, in a "common sense"-way, makes it easy to come to the conclusion debt was just "cheaper coins".

I hadn't thought about it, but that's actually true. The Alchemy rulebook even compares gaining potion cost cards with buying:

"when a player uses University to Gain an action card costing up to $5, the player may not gain a card with [P] in the cost. ...
It is just like Buying a card - if a player just has $5, he cannot buy a card with [P] in the cost."


Obviously this thinking doesn't work with debt cost.

It *sort of* does. If you think of "debt cost" as "how much debt you have to take" as opposed to what you have to "pay", then in order to purchase a card costing , you must have the ability to take at least . The sentence above, in Debt terms, still applies... if a player just has , he cannot buy a card with in the cost. But you don't have "just" , you have + the capacity to take unlimited debt.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #307 on: June 28, 2016, 04:36:32 pm »
+1

I think of debt the same way I think of imaginary numbers. This is an easy way to explain the concept to nerdy types to give an intuitive understanding of "cost more" and "cost less" situations.

2+3i is "more than" 2+2i or 1+3i, but it is not more than (or less than) 1+4i. Same with debt, 0+8d is less than 8+8d but it is neither more nor less than 2+0d.

And you don't "pay debt", you take debt. This handles "can I overpay debt" - you don't pay Debt, you take it as a cost, and pay *off* debt.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #308 on: June 28, 2016, 04:37:47 pm »
+2

It's like ordering Dominion from another country: You may have as much cash lying around as you like, but that doesn't help you since you need your credit card.
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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #309 on: June 28, 2016, 05:27:32 pm »
+3

new idea: $8 + 8d costs the same amount as $8√2
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Minotaur

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #310 on: June 28, 2016, 07:04:25 pm »
0

Donald could have made <1> = $(1-e), where e is an infinitesimal.  But then Engineer would be able to three-pile too fast, which is ultimately why we end up going back to the product order again.
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Minotaur

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #311 on: June 28, 2016, 07:19:54 pm »
+1

In the infinitesimal scheme, you could Remodel an Engineer to get a Stables, but not a Gold.  And a sabotaged Engineer could gain you a <2>, Poor House, or a $0.  An arbitrartily expensive card costing <M> could be remodeled to gain a card costing <M+2> or $(M+1), but not $(M+2).  The linear way to prevent a jump down is if e is infintesimal.  Otherwise, a fan card costing the amount <1/e> (with e a small real number, such as 10^-(10^10^10^10^10)) would cost the same as $(1/e-1), which should not be the case if you have exactly $(1/e-1) to pay right now.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 09:16:59 pm by Minotaur »
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crj

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #312 on: June 28, 2016, 07:52:24 pm »
+2

I think of debt the same way I think of imaginary numbers. This is an easy way to explain the concept to nerdy types to give an intuitive understanding of "cost more" and "cost less" situations.

2+3i is "more than" 2+2i or 1+3i, but it is not more than (or less than) 1+4i.
Um. Your mathematics is broken.

While |3i| is more than |2i|, |-3| is also more than |+2|, which isn't at all what you want here. You can't say 3i is more than 2i because, although we know that +i and -i are different, we can't tell which is which.

The correct model, as Minotaur mentioned in passing, is a product order over the integers or naturals.
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pacovf

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #313 on: June 28, 2016, 08:42:20 pm »
0

new idea: $8 + 8d costs the same amount as $8√2

And Wedding is cheaper than Gold!
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Minotaur

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Re: Empires Rulebook
« Reply #314 on: June 28, 2016, 08:46:28 pm »
+1

Another good reason for the product order is that you "can afford" <100> even when you can't afford $5.  So is <100> < $5?  I still wouldn't think so.

For mechanics involving card costs, some heuristic could have been used like <1>=$1, but it's definitely reasonable to regard them the way you would regard gold/wood/food in Age of Empires, even if there is a one-way street from gold to wood.
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