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[faust]

Have you such a low opinion of me as a player?  I have the equivalent of decades of experience on you as a Mafia player.

Appeal to aothority. How nice. Everyone can screw up. Not saying you did necessarily, but that's not a good argument.

There are many examples of times when voting for conf!scum may not be the best course of action.  Sometimes you pull a Jimmmm and try to root out partners, for example.

The duel mechanic forces players to vote for town or scum.  Only scum know with certainty which they are voting for.  We only care about the two scum not in the duel.  You need to leave as many slots available for the not duel players to vote.

There are such times, I agree. This is not one of them. As I explained, scum not voting is always only holding out for a chance to quickhammer. If town gets lynched, all the reads to be had so far are worth less (in particular the town reads). All that risk for what, one more read? You can simply ask each player to take a stand before we actually do the lynching, and get the same result without the complications.

There's also the fact that the setup actual rewards mislynches by giving all remaining town a chance to be converted to the scum team and win.  So it may seem to some of the town players that the best play is actually to mislynch every time and hope to get converted.

Why would you even say that? I don't think it's good enough to be optimal play (one would have to run some numbers there), but if it was, it is certainly not good play for town!you to point it out, because a town player in a duel certainly does not want to be mislynched.

[faust]

faust: once the lynch is confirmed, would you do me a favor and go ahead and thank chairs for screwing up his own plan on behalf of your partners?

Also, no need to troll after the lynch is confirmed, you can just own up to being scum.

You're being ridiculous and petty. I haven't even voted yet. I'm just doing a reread. Of course I'm going to find you scummy, from my perspective you have 50% odds of being scum.

What did that post have to do with you?

You know that if I have a 50% chance of being scum, there's another player who also have a 50% chance of being scum?

I suck at math, so someone check that for me.

Gotta agree that ii's post there did not make a ton of sense.

[faust]

Would town!me be tempted to break the promise to hammer scum?  Sure.  But I wouldn't -- because why would anyone trust me after that?

  Noone would need to trust you after that, because you would be dead.

[faust]

But it's more the dismissive tone Faust used to completely skirt the idea -- that's a scum!faust trait every single time.  Town!faust is helpful and thoughtful.  Scum!faust is haughty and bossy.

This is just misinformation... in fact, I picked up that bossy tone as scum after a town game where it stood out (Dice Mafia I think). I did try to tone it down in the past, because it turns out people are sometimes offended by it. I don't think I have been particularly haughty or bossy in this game anyway.

[faust]

1) He was fairly inactive and mostly useless on D1 (from a leadership / theory / scum hunting perspective).
2) He has his scum persona turned on.
3) He's sitting back here on D2 letting everyone else do the work for him.

1. Yeah, sorry, I was too much preoccupied with the other game.
2. Not true. But if it were, man, that's a pretty good case.
3. I'm not taking that shit. Here I am, spending time I could also spend on finishing my Master's thesis or writing applications to deal with this. I haven't been around yesterday because I was sitting in a bus for 9.5 hours with little to no internet access (I don't own a smartphone). I thought it was agreed that questioning this kind of stuff is bad form.

[faust]

Also, this duel auto-death thing messes with stats -- how do I count the auto-kill when you win the duel?

Well, according to the setup, the auto-kill is a substitute for scum's nightkill.

[faust]

Either way before either of you are lynched, could you give us a full reads list?  Like thoughts on every person?

Can do, but it will require a reread and therefore some time.

[ashersky]

1) He was fairly inactive and mostly useless on D1 (from a leadership / theory / scum hunting perspective).
2) He has his scum persona turned on.
3) He's sitting back here on D2 letting everyone else do the work for him.

1. Yeah, sorry, I was too much preoccupied with the other game.
2. Not true. But if it were, man, that's a pretty good case.
3. I'm not taking that shit. Here I am, spending time I could also spend on finishing my Master's thesis or writing applications to deal with this. I haven't been around yesterday because I was sitting in a bus for 9.5 hours with little to no internet access (I don't own a smartphone). I thought it was agreed that questioning this kind of stuff is bad form.

Your anger at #3 is misplaced.  When I posted that, you were in fact doing what I said.  You are NOW taking action, which is a good refutation of #3, but it was valid when I posted it.  No need to take offense.

I don't think calling out inactivity is poor form.  You might say that about me calling out your other post as AtE poor form, but not this one.

[ashersky]

Also, this duel auto-death thing messes with stats -- how do I count the auto-kill when you win the duel?

Well, according to the setup, the auto-kill is a substitute for scum's nightkill.

I guess.  Maybe with an *.  I had to just make it up for Death Note Mafia, too.

[faust]

Guys. Enough of the knee jerk voting.

The wagon will be telling, but seriously. 0% chance ash is scum

This one has advanced probability skills.

[faust]

But he is not being crazy! He is making very good, well reasoned points. Even like ash is saying, there is no case on faust. The perfect player for scum to pick to duel.

On which players are there cases to be made?

[faust]

1) He was fairly inactive and mostly useless on D1 (from a leadership / theory / scum hunting perspective).
2) He has his scum persona turned on.
3) He's sitting back here on D2 letting everyone else do the work for him.

1. Yeah, sorry, I was too much preoccupied with the other game.
2. Not true. But if it were, man, that's a pretty good case.
3. I'm not taking that shit. Here I am, spending time I could also spend on finishing my Master's thesis or writing applications to deal with this. I haven't been around yesterday because I was sitting in a bus for 9.5 hours with little to no internet access (I don't own a smartphone). I thought it was agreed that questioning this kind of stuff is bad form.

Your anger at #3 is misplaced.  When I posted that, you were in fact doing what I said.  You are NOW taking action, which is a good refutation of #3, but it was valid when I posted it.  No need to take offense.

I don't think calling out inactivity is poor form.  You might say that about me calling out your other post as AtE poor form, but not this one.

I guess. I didn't really consider that it was before I posted reasons for my inactivity. But really, in which possible world does scum!me intentionally sit back and let others do the work. On one hand I am scummy for being bossy, on the other because I'm sitting back? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Haddock]

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I still can't decide these two. But this phrase is one I have never used as town and several times as scum.  It smacks of "wrong reasons" scum.

[faust]

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I still can't decide these two. But this phrase is one I have never used as town and several times as scum.  It smacks of "wrong reasons" scum.

It's a pet peeve of mine if people say "A is scummy" and "not-A is scummy" because it shows they only want to find reasons to find someone scummy rather than looking at posts to figure out if the person really is scummy.

[faust]

One thing is for sure though, ash cannot find me scummy for the wrong reasons.

[ashersky]

One thing is for sure though, ash cannot find me scummy for the wrong reasons.

When you are scum, all the reasons are right.

[silverspawn]

- The texture of time is a whisper that echoes across the flood -

Vote Count 2.2

ashersky (3): Seprix, faust, J Reggie
faust (1): Jimmmmm

Not Voting (7): Haddock, e, Joseph2302, iguanaiguana, Egork, ashersky, gkrieg13

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at Aug 3, 23:00 forum time. That is in 7 days and 14+ hours.

[gkrieg13]

vote: faust

[Haddock]

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I still can't decide these two. But this phrase is one I have never used as town and several times as scum.  It smacks of "wrong reasons" scum.

It's a pet peeve of mine if people say "A is scummy" and "not-A is scummy" because it shows they only want to find reasons to find someone scummy rather than looking at posts to figure out if the person really is scummy.

I agree in general. If I had the time to read you properly I would. And I will get there. Meanwhile I give what I can. And that comment did stand out as scummy.

[EgorK]

Also his point about faust unvoting is spot-on. We need majority lynches without those dueling each other. Wagons are much more informative that way.

So you say town participant of the duel should go in basically hated for some information in the future that would be rendered at least somewhat useless if town is lynched and conversion take place? Also suppose town player do this, scum player at L-1 and then town player posts. Even most dense of his scum buddies would see this as chance to hammer, as by this point who is scum is obvious. So only "benefits" is mesed up vote count. Can someone rebuff this?

I rate atgument about player sequncing as applied to ash as WIFOM.

That still leaves me in slight favor of lynchinh ash, but not enogh to vote just yet

Ash, care to answer this?

[Seprix]

Yeah, Faust's answers seem reasonable, but they also seem to come from scum!Faust. Maybe this isn't as open/shut as I first assumed.

[ashersky]

Also his point about faust unvoting is spot-on. We need majority lynches without those dueling each other. Wagons are much more informative that way.

So you say town participant of the duel should go in basically hated for some information in the future that would be rendered at least somewhat useless if town is lynched and conversion take place? Also suppose town player do this, scum player at L-1 and then town player posts. Even most dense of his scum buddies would see this as chance to hammer, as by this point who is scum is obvious. So only "benefits" is mesed up vote count. Can someone rebuff this?

I rate atgument about player sequncing as applied to ash as WIFOM.

That still leaves me in slight favor of lynchinh ash, but not enogh to vote just yet

Ash, care to answer this?

I guess I disagree with your premise.  The idea that the town player in a duel is hated seems off.  If anything, they are both "hated" since you can assume that the opposition in the duel is clearly voting for them.

I think it is better to think of it as making both players Loved.  They each take one more player to lynch than usual.  So if it's 6 to lynch, one vote is already in place (duel opponent), so it only takes 5, which is Hated.  By saying that auto-vote from the opponent isn't cast, we are making 7 players vote for a player.

You are right in the sense that if town is at L-1, the scum just hammers, so the plan is somewhat negated.  But I do think there is value in seeing scum get to L-1 and the town duel opponent NOT hammering right away.  If scum quick hammers their partner at that point, well, that's pointing out who scum is.  That is helpful to town.

So I guess I disagree or don't understand your point here.  I want scum other than Faust to have to vote for me to get me lynched.  At the very least, I want scum to have to vote.  By reducing the number of votes required to lynch by one, that becomes less likely.  So, duelists shouldn't vote.

[gkrieg13]

Also his point about faust unvoting is spot-on. We need majority lynches without those dueling each other. Wagons are much more informative that way.

So you say town participant of the duel should go in basically hated for some information in the future that would be rendered at least somewhat useless if town is lynched and conversion take place? Also suppose town player do this, scum player at L-1 and then town player posts. Even most dense of his scum buddies would see this as chance to hammer, as by this point who is scum is obvious. So only "benefits" is mesed up vote count. Can someone rebuff this?

I rate atgument about player sequncing as applied to ash as WIFOM.

That still leaves me in slight favor of lynchinh ash, but not enogh to vote just yet

Ash, care to answer this?

I guess I disagree with your premise.  The idea that the town player in a duel is hated seems off.  If anything, they are both "hated" since you can assume that the opposition in the duel is clearly voting for them.

I think it is better to think of it as making both players Loved.  They each take one more player to lynch than usual.  So if it's 6 to lynch, one vote is already in place (duel opponent), so it only takes 5, which is Hated.  By saying that auto-vote from the opponent isn't cast, we are making 7 players vote for a player.

You are right in the sense that if town is at L-1, the scum just hammers, so the plan is somewhat negated.  But I do think there is value in seeing scum get to L-1 and the town duel opponent NOT hammering right away.  If scum quick hammers their partner at that point, well, that's pointing out who scum is.  That is helpful to town.

So I guess I disagree or don't understand your point here.  I want scum other than Faust to have to vote for me to get me lynched.  At the very least, I want scum to have to vote.  By reducing the number of votes required to lynch by one, that becomes less likely.  So, duelists shouldn't vote.

Wouldn't scum just self-hammer at that point?

[Seprix]

Gkreig is right. Scum would just hammer and bus their partner, and try again.

[iguanaiguana]

faust: once the lynch is confirmed, would you do me a favor and go ahead and thank chairs for screwing up his own plan on behalf of your partners?

Also, no need to troll after the lynch is confirmed, you can just own up to being scum.

You're being ridiculous and petty. I haven't even voted yet. I'm just doing a reread. Of course I'm going to find you scummy, from my perspective you have 50% odds of being scum.

What did that post have to do with you?

You know that if I have a 50% chance of being scum, there's another player who also have a 50% chance of being scum?

I suck at math, so someone check that for me.

Gotta agree that ii's post there did not make a ton of sense.

I think I just quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the post where Ash self-voted.