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[SuperHans]

Man. I want to purchase the entire set for Making Fun but it hardly seems worth it at this point with the change in pricing. If even contractually possible, I would love to see a drop in the rate as we get closer to next year. Hardly seems worth it to pay essentially $60 for the next 6 months ($100-$36 fee waiver next year).

Donald X has said this isn't possible because all of the contracts are already negotiated. Which makes sense: MF shouldn't be able to get paid for promising that ShuffleIT will provide a product to you in the future.

That MF can still sell the sets and ShuffleIT will honor those purchases for a year is already nicer to MF than it deserves. MF should never have been allowed to imply that people were getting "perpetual ownership of sets" when MF only had the license through the end of 2016 in the first place. I'm happy that the new Dominion Online will have a much more transparent pricing structure.

I completely agree. I strongly suspected that it wouldn't be contractually possible. I haven't played online since isotropic so what's wrong with waiting just a little longer.

[JW]

I completely agree. I strongly suspected that it wouldn't be contractually possible. I haven't played online since isotropic so what's wrong with waiting just a little longer.

If you buy only one set from MF, buy Adventures ($15). I'm sure that lots of people who own all of the other sets will want to play with you, so you can get many games with all sets if you spend the effort to find opponents with all other cards. Even if you don’t look for opponents who own all other sets, Adventures is likely the least-purchased set so it will also add the most variety to your games.

[luminatedlucy]

I love Dominion and it's my favorite game, but I'm pretty upset to find out about these developments. Buying the expansions via Goko and Making Fun wasn't exactly cheap, and a 1 year free subscription ($36 via their currently stated pricing model) really doesn't compensate for the money spent.

Offering local wireless with offline dominion seems more fair. Most of the time when I'm playing online it's with people I know anyway.

It's very unlikely will I be paying the monthly subscription fee. I play mostly with my local board game group, who have varying levels of income and interest in Dominion. It's highly unlikely all of them will be getting the monthly subscription, so if I can't play with the people I like to play with, there's really no reason for me to play either.

It's too bad because I did find online dominion to be superior product to using the physical cards, because setup with tons of expansions gets very unwieldy. I'm not sure whether I'll be interested in going back to that cumbersome process or simply stop playing dominion entirely.

[Donald X.]

I love Dominion and it's my favorite game, but I'm pretty upset to find out about these developments. Buying the expansions via Goko and Making Fun wasn't exactly cheap, and a 1 year free subscription ($36 via their currently stated pricing model) really doesn't compensate for the money spent.

The people trying to compensate you aren't the ones who collected the spent money.

[Kirian]

It's very unlikely will I be paying the monthly subscription fee. I play mostly with my local board game group, who have varying levels of income and interest in Dominion. It's highly unlikely all of them will be getting the monthly subscription, so if I can't play with the people I like to play with, there's really no reason for me to play either.

I obviously cannot and do not speak for ShuffleIT, but it would be highly surprising to me if they had a setup where base-only players could only play with other base-only players.

[luminatedlucy]

I love Dominion and it's my favorite game, but I'm pretty upset to find out about these developments. Buying the expansions via Goko and Making Fun wasn't exactly cheap, and a 1 year free subscription ($36 via their currently stated pricing model) really doesn't compensate for the money spent.

The people trying to compensate you aren't the ones who collected the spent money.

I kind of assumed you got a licensing fee or share of profits so a portion of my money effectively went to you? Sorry if that's not accurate.

[luminatedlucy]

It's very unlikely will I be paying the monthly subscription fee. I play mostly with my local board game group, who have varying levels of income and interest in Dominion. It's highly unlikely all of them will be getting the monthly subscription, so if I can't play with the people I like to play with, there's really no reason for me to play either.

I obviously cannot and do not speak for ShuffleIT, but it would be highly surprising to me if they had a setup where base-only players could only play with other base-only players.

If it was just 3$ a month to have access to all the sets and I could play them with anyone I wanted (including non-subscribers) that would be a pretty reasonable deal, if Dominion continues to come out with expansions once a year (since I'd be paying around $36 for each new expansion anyway if I got the paper version). I was assuming that to get access to the game at all you'd have to be a subscriber, but you're right that that might not be correct.

[Calamitas]

I love Dominion and it's my favorite game, but I'm pretty upset to find out about these developments. Buying the expansions via Goko and Making Fun wasn't exactly cheap, and a 1 year free subscription ($36 via their currently stated pricing model) really doesn't compensate for the money spent.

The people trying to compensate you aren't the ones who collected the spent money.

I kind of assumed you got a licensing fee or share of profits so a portion of my money effectively went to you? Sorry if that's not accurate.

Donald stated in another thread that they were getting just a ridiculously small amount of money which they have spent to help making the current plan (transition year 2017) possible.

[enfynet]

It's very unlikely will I be paying the monthly subscription fee. I play mostly with my local board game group, who have varying levels of income and interest in Dominion. It's highly unlikely all of them will be getting the monthly subscription, so if I can't play with the people I like to play with, there's really no reason for me to play either.

I obviously cannot and do not speak for ShuffleIT, but it would be highly surprising to me if they had a setup where base-only players could only play with other base-only players.

If it was just 3$ a month to have access to all the sets and I could play them with anyone I wanted (including non-subscribers) that would be a pretty reasonable deal, if Dominion continues to come out with expansions once a year (since I'd be paying around $36 for each new expansion anyway if I got the paper version). I was assuming that to get access to the game at all you'd have to be a subscriber, but you're right that that might not be correct.

What did you assume the $3/month was for?

[Donald X.]

I kind of assumed you got a licensing fee or share of profits so a portion of my money effectively went to you? Sorry if that's not accurate.

I totally get a share. It's just that that share has been tiny compared to the money taken in. Jay (Rio Grande Games) and I will be giving up more money than we've made total from online Dominion, over the entire time it's been around, to get people that year that isn't good enough (I won't know exactly how the math works out until 2018, since it's a %, and even then you can say, how much of that goes to what exactly).

[luminatedlucy]

It's very unlikely will I be paying the monthly subscription fee. I play mostly with my local board game group, who have varying levels of income and interest in Dominion. It's highly unlikely all of them will be getting the monthly subscription, so if I can't play with the people I like to play with, there's really no reason for me to play either.

I obviously cannot and do not speak for ShuffleIT, but it would be highly surprising to me if they had a setup where base-only players could only play with other base-only players.

If it was just 3$ a month to have access to all the sets and I could play them with anyone I wanted (including non-subscribers) that would be a pretty reasonable deal, if Dominion continues to come out with expansions once a year (since I'd be paying around $36 for each new expansion anyway if I got the paper version). I was assuming that to get access to the game at all you'd have to be a subscriber, but you're right that that might not be correct.

What did you assume the $3/month was for?

To get access to all the sets and play only with other subscribers, like many online games where a subscription is required.

[luminatedlucy]

I kind of assumed you got a licensing fee or share of profits so a portion of my money effectively went to you? Sorry if that's not accurate.

I totally get a share. It's just that that share has been tiny compared to the money taken in. Jay (Rio Grande Games) and I will be giving up more money than we've made total from online Dominion, over the entire time it's been around, to get people that year that isn't good enough (I won't know exactly how the math works out until 2018, since it's a %, and even then you can say, how much of that goes to what exactly).

Got it. Thanks for offering us at least something then.

[Donald X.]

If it was just 3$ a month to have access to all the sets and I could play them with anyone I wanted (including non-subscribers) that would be a pretty reasonable deal, if Dominion continues to come out with expansions once a year (since I'd be paying around $36 for each new expansion anyway if I got the paper version). I was assuming that to get access to the game at all you'd have to be a subscriber, but you're right that that might not be correct.

The plan is for ~$3/month to give access to all sets; the plan is not to let you play them with non-subscribers (to allow that, the price for paying customers would have to go up).

The plan is to actually charge for expansions; if there's an 11th expansion then I expect the price for "get everything" to go up some small amount. To me there's no point to programming new expansions for the online version otherwise; they are not intended to just be promotional items.

[Kirian]

If it was just 3$ a month to have access to all the sets and I could play them with anyone I wanted (including non-subscribers) that would be a pretty reasonable deal, if Dominion continues to come out with expansions once a year (since I'd be paying around $36 for each new expansion anyway if I got the paper version). I was assuming that to get access to the game at all you'd have to be a subscriber, but you're right that that might not be correct.

The plan is for ~$3/month to give access to all sets; the plan is not to let you play them with non-subscribers (to allow that, the price for paying customers would have to go up).

That... is... uh, well, as I said, highly surprising.  I'm not your business guy, or even a business guy, but this seems like a bad idea.  I know a couple of people who would become non-customers.

The plan is to actually charge for expansions; if there's an 11th expansion then I expect the price for "get everything" to go up some small amount. To me there's no point to programming new expansions for the online version otherwise; they are not intended to just be promotional items.

That definitely makes sense.

[LastFootnote]

Assuming that a subscription is necessary, here's what I would suggest (and maybe what I did suggest at the time, can't recall). When you purchase an expansion, you're purchasing it for both online and offline play. Playing online costs $1 per month, or something in that range, and only allows you to play against other subscribers. But local wireless/bluetooth play is included and free; there's no server to keep running there. Regardless of whether a game is online or local, it can have all cards that any of the players own; price expansions accordingly. Maybe charge for the base game.

The plan is to actually charge for expansions; if there's an 11th expansion then I expect the price for "get everything" to go up some small amount. To me there's no point to programming new expansions for the online version otherwise; they are not intended to just be promotional items.

That definitely makes sense.

It does superficially make sense, but uh nobody else does that and I think it's pretty obviously a bad idea. World of Warcraft does not up their subscription fee every time they release an expansion. You just have to pay for the expansion itself and then keep paying the same subscription fee. A subscription fee for an online implementation of a physical card game is already a tough sell for a lot of folks. But a subscription fee that might go up at any time? Oof.

[Donald X.]

It does superficially make sense, but uh nobody else does that and I think it's pretty obviously a bad idea. World of Warcraft does not up their subscription fee every time they release an expansion. You just have to pay for the expansion itself and then keep paying the same subscription fee. A subscription fee for an online implementation of a physical card game is already a tough sell for a lot of folks. But a subscription fee that might go up at any time? Oof.

The subscription fee only goes up if you want more stuff. Or I mean, if it goes up due to changing realities the way that any price goes up, except when instead they lower the amount of peanut butter and put that big dimple in the bottom of the jar to try to hide this fact.

But I mean, I'm reasonable. Other fine options:
- online versions simply never get any further expansions; hooray, no-one misses out due to price outrage
- there are no further expansions; hooray, everything made it online
- no new expansions come out until the online version ceases to exist; hooray, new expansions happen despite the desperate need for any new content to be free online because something something World of Warcraft

Those are all fine. New expansions that we give away online, meh, I'd rather work on projects that the world pretends are worth something. I don't need you to understand; you aren't changing my mind; if people will be too unhappy that the price for "everything" goes up when there's more everything, well I have these fine three alternatives.

The subscription model wasn't my idea; I don't know how well it will do; it if fails we will put whatever effort into considering the matter Then. It is getting its shot. Any change that affected what people with the existing software would expect to get in 2017 can't possibly happen until 2018. You say "there's no server to keep running there;" I am guessing that's referring to costs? My understanding is that that's not relevant so maybe there's some significant misunderstanding there; you could ask Stef for clarifications on their forums, where it is so much more reasonable for people with inside information to be discussing these things.

[werothegreat]

I'm just trying to think of one other online game with a tournament scene that has a subscription model.  Hmmm.... nope, can't think of any.  There are those with a purchase fee, maybe micro-transactions, but none with subscription fees.  Unless there's one I'm missing, in which case, please do enlighten me.

[Donald X.]

I'm just trying to think of one other online game with a tournament scene that has a subscription model.  Hmmm.... nope, can't think of any.  There are those with a purchase fee, maybe micro-transactions, but none with subscription fees.  Unless there's one I'm missing, in which case, please do enlighten me.

Maybe it's just awful! Jay and I were initially against a subscription, but one thing that swayed us was that they weren't the first people pitching it. And it prevents a new event like the existing incredible awfulness, where people feel like we owe them because some other entity did not inform them of the facts; I like preventing that a lot.

One thing I should add, that I don't think I've said, and well I am that honest guy.

For any talk of "will this work" for Dominion 2017, the threat, the danger, is that it won't work, that online Dominion will falter or die. And I can understand, for people who enjoy online Dominion, worrying about that. For me personally, online Dominion has been absolutely awful, it has cast a long shadow of sorrow over my life, and the threat of "no online Dominion" is just no threat at all. Man if only there had never been online Dominion. I could be that happy-go-lucky guy, making cards, with no-one mad at him ever. Okay there would be people mad about bendy Adventures cards but that's it.

And well probably I should just stay out of these discussions, and not even see what people are saying, except people are starting to complain to me directly that, hey I bought online Dominion and now I hear I'm not really getting it, where's my money. Somehow these facts need to get to people before they buy; I wish somehow that could happen.

[singletee]

The subscription fee only goes up if you want more stuff.

Doesn't this create an additional pricing tier? The people who had half the sets are paying their $2/mo, the people who had all the sets are paying their $3/mo, and now the people who have all the old sets plus the new one are paying their $3.20/mo or whatever it is. Why not just have a monthly price per set? I mean that's more tiers but it's easier to understand.

[Donald X.]

The subscription fee only goes up if you want more stuff.

Doesn't this create an additional pricing tier? The people who had half the sets are paying their $2/mo, the people who had all the sets are paying their $3/mo, and now the people who have all the old sets plus the new one are paying their $3.20/mo or whatever it is. Why not just have a monthly price per set? I mean that's more tiers but it's easier to understand.

Yes it creates an additional pricing tier. I think something like 2 tiers is easier to understand up until that point. I don't think an extra tier is hard to understand later.

[drsteelhammer]

The subscription fee only goes up if you want more stuff.

Doesn't this create an additional pricing tier? The people who had half the sets are paying their $2/mo, the people who had all the sets are paying their $3/mo, and now the people who have all the old sets plus the new one are paying their $3.20/mo or whatever it is. Why not just have a monthly price per set? I mean that's more tiers but it's easier to understand.

Yes it creates an additional pricing tier. I think something like 2 tiers is easier to understand up until that point. I don't think an extra tier is hard to understand later.

It's not hard to understand, it just looks hard to implement into matchmaking? At the moment, like six people look for a game at the same time. Finding a match gets a lot harder the more tiers there are. One can hope that the player base increases exponentially, but that takes time. (Tier 3 exists since the first day due to Empires, right?)

That said, I very much like the subscription model. If Dominion had a millon weekly players, you could probably live off mico-transactions or giving additional features for free but there aren't, so you can't.

[Donald X.]

It's not hard to understand, it just looks hard to implement into matchmaking? At the moment, like six people look for a game at the same time. Finding a match gets a lot harder the more tiers there are. One can hope that the player base increases exponentially, but that takes time. (Tier 3 exists since the first day due to Empires, right?)

I do not think there will be a tier for "everything but Empires"; instead it will just be, as has been said previously, that people can pay the difference to upgrade from "what they have" to "larger tier."

[drsteelhammer]

It's not hard to understand, it just looks hard to implement into matchmaking? At the moment, like six people look for a game at the same time. Finding a match gets a lot harder the more tiers there are. One can hope that the player base increases exponentially, but that takes time. (Tier 3 exists since the first day due to Empires, right?)

I do not think there will be a tier for "everything but Empires"; instead it will just be, as has been said previously, that people can pay the difference to upgrade from "what they have" to "larger tier."

Ah, I see. I partly misunderstood what was going to happen when a new expansion is released.

[Chris is me]

If it was just 3$ a month to have access to all the sets and I could play them with anyone I wanted (including non-subscribers) that would be a pretty reasonable deal, if Dominion continues to come out with expansions once a year (since I'd be paying around $36 for each new expansion anyway if I got the paper version). I was assuming that to get access to the game at all you'd have to be a subscriber, but you're right that that might not be correct.

The plan is for ~$3/month to give access to all sets; the plan is not to let you play them with non-subscribers (to allow that, the price for paying customers would have to go up).

That... is... uh, well, as I said, highly surprising.  I'm not your business guy, or even a business guy, but this seems like a bad idea.  I know a couple of people who would become non-customers.

Personally, I really value that I can play Dominion online with other people who don't play often enough to justify their own accounts. I'd be willing to pay more per month to be able to play games with guests who don't own the sets. I understand not letting those guests play matchmade games against people who paid, etc, but I would really like to be able to host games for my friends.

I have a few friends who like Dominion enough to play it when I'm around, as a social thing, but not enough to play it on their own. Sometimes I play online with these friends as something to do with them even when I'm far away. I guess I could buy multiple subscriptions and lend out dummy accounts to friends I want to play with, but that seems kind of wasteful and ridiculous. Would it be possible for me to pay like, $6 a month / twice as much as a normal subscription to be able to host a game with up to 3 guests or something? I think this functionality is limited enough that it wouldn't prevent anyone from getting a paid account that otherwise would have, and yet it would allow me to play with friends and introduce the game to people.

In any case, I do have some friends who have told me "I love Dominion, but I'm not paying $100 to play all the expansions online", and I'm happy to tell them "talk to me in January, and you can try all of them for just $3!". So, maybe this won't be such a big problem.

[cactus]

I'm just trying to think of one other online game with a tournament scene that has a subscription model.  Hmmm.... nope, can't think of any.  There are those with a purchase fee, maybe micro-transactions, but none with subscription fees.  Unless there's one I'm missing, in which case, please do enlighten me.

Well one thing is that up until now Apple has been very restrictive about what kind of apps on iOS can have subscription models - games and productivity apps have not been able to have subscription pricing for instance. This has pushed a lot of developers towards the (widely, justifiably) hated micro transaction model. From what I have read this is about to change so it is quite possible things in the industry might start to change and subscription pricing may start to be more of the norm for high quality software.

I was initially against the idea of subscription pricing because I was afraid it might be a barrier to new players taking up the game. But I now think it might be a better option than the MF/Goko debarkel. 1/ I want an excellent implementation of my favourite game. 2/ I want the developers to charge a realistic price that remunerates them for the time and effort of developing and maintaining said excellent implementation 3/ I want the designer and publisher of the game to get sufficient remuneration that they will be encouraged to continue their excellent work.

I now think a subscription model - maybe with a two week free trial period to encourage new players to try the game - offers the best hope of an excellent and sustainable version of dominion online exciting into the medium / longer term future. Yes the model doesn't suit everybody perfectly - if you only want to play two or three times a year you might not want to pay for a full years subscription - but it also doesn't seem fair (to the designer and developers) that if you just want to play now and then you should play for free. If you can subscribe monthly rather than just yearly it could work well - if you know you're going to play with your friends this weekend then renew your subscription for $3 (or whatever) - not going to play fir the next couple of months? Let your subscription lapse.