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Author Topic: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality  (Read 13424 times)

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Calamitas

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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« on: June 02, 2016, 01:17:01 pm »
+3

Just wanted to ask if someone here has read it.

If not, allow me to give you an introduction:

Hpmor is covering an alternate universe where Petunia (Harrys aunt) is married to an oxford professor. Therefore, Harry is used to the scientific method, mathematics and physics before getting his letter. He is much more interested in the fundamentels of magic and the protagonist (and antagonist) are much more intelligent.

The fanfiction is written by an American scientist and is well-written and definetly interesting.

If you are interested, you can find the text/podcast right here:

http://hpmor.com/chapter/1
http://www.hpmorpodcast.com
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2016, 02:01:03 pm »
0

I have read it and liked it.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2016, 02:02:54 pm »
0

I have read it and liked it.
Did you also read Significant Digits? (fanfic of that fanfic and also very recommendable)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2016, 02:23:42 pm »
0

I have read it and liked it.
Did you also read Significant Digits? (fanfic of that fanfic and also very recommendable)
That one I did not know of. I have started reading it.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2016, 02:35:43 pm »
+1

I read the first few chapters, at which point it started to get... boring?  Not sure if that's the right word.  Preachy and uninteresting perhaps?

Yudkowsky and his followers are... a very, very strange bunch.  Like, they have some interesting-but-impractical ideas, but the way they present themselves and their ideas makes you want to avoid the overwhelming smugness.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2016, 02:37:28 pm »
0

I read the first few chapters, at which point it started to get... boring?  Not sure if that's the right word.  Preachy and uninteresting perhaps?

Yudkowsky and his followers are... a very, very strange bunch.  Like, they have some interesting-but-impractical ideas, but the way they present themselves and their ideas makes you want to avoid the overwhelming smugness.
Up to which time did you read? Did you read of the first defense class ?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2016, 02:41:31 pm »
0

I liked most of it. The war portions were boring. Pretty much everything involving Daphne too. Loved everything with Dumbledore and Quirrel.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2016, 03:37:20 pm »
0

I liked most of it. The war portions were boring. Pretty much everything involving Daphne too. Loved everything with Dumbledore and Quirrel.
Do you mean the defense class 'war' ?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2016, 03:46:37 pm »
0

I read it and liked it, then reread it and disliked it. It's fun but hardly "rational" at all.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2016, 03:50:01 pm »
0

I liked most of it. The war portions were boring. Pretty much everything involving Daphne too. Loved everything with Dumbledore and Quirrel.
Do you mean the defense class 'war' ?

Yes. I guess I just didn't care for how the author (sorry, I don't want to butcher the spelling) writes action and I really wanted to get back to more of the philosophical and scientific sections of the story. I also listened to the entire text via the podcast up until the final arc, so it's possible the voice actors weren't selling it, but I suspect I would have zoned out during those parts regardless.

Please don't get me wrong; on the whole, it was one of my favorite Harry Potter fanfics, right up there with "The Lie I've Lived," the Alexandra Quick series, and "Ectomancer." My favorite section of it overall was the Azkaban break-in. The ending was pretty cool too, though I think the last bit with Hermione reconstructed felt a little silly.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2016, 04:22:33 pm »
0

I liked most of it. The war portions were boring. Pretty much everything involving Daphne too. Loved everything with Dumbledore and Quirrel.
Do you mean the defense class 'war' ?

Yes. I guess I just didn't care for how the author (sorry, I don't want to butcher the spelling) writes action and I really wanted to get back to more of the philosophical and scientific sections of the story. I also listened to the entire text via the podcast up until the final arc, so it's possible the voice actors weren't selling it, but I suspect I would have zoned out during those parts regardless.

Please don't get me wrong; on the whole, it was one of my favorite Harry Potter fanfics, right up there with "The Lie I've Lived," the Alexandra Quick series, and "Ectomancer." My favorite section of it overall was the Azkaban break-in. The ending was pretty cool too, though I think the last bit with Hermione reconstructed felt a little silly.
I liked Askaban and Quirrel and Harry in the corridor, especially the description of the Wizarding war most as well. And those Harry Potter references (e.g. Goblet of fire, Sectumsempra, corridor, Voldemort being insanely stupid by not hiding his stuff right ,...) were just awesome and always worth a laughter.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2016, 04:24:25 pm »
0

This sounds amazing. I will read it when the College or the Job don't own my soul.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2016, 04:25:46 pm »
0

This sounds amazing. I will read it when the College or the Job don't own my soul.
:)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2016, 04:31:15 pm »
0

This sounds amazing. I will read it when the College or the Job don't own my soul.

I recommend the podcast version if that floats your boat! Listen to it while doing chores, walking/running, cooking, etc. It's a pretty heavy read, but the distinct voices and slower pace of listening helped me get into the story. I tried to pick it up just visually several years prior and couldn't get going.

http://www.hpmorpodcast.com/
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2016, 04:34:01 pm »
0

This sounds amazing. I will read it when the College or the Job don't own my soul.

I recommend the podcast version if that floats your boat! Listen to it while doing chores, walking/running, cooking, etc. It's a pretty heavy read, but the distinct voices and slower pace of listening helped me get into the story. I tried to pick it up just visually several years prior and couldn't get going.

http://www.hpmorpodcast.com/
Linked in the OP as well, but i would recommend the podcast as well. I have never heard an audio book before but that one was just awesome.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2016, 04:56:38 pm »
+1

Read it and enjoyed it, but not enough to read it again.  I liked the start more than the end, probably because it was still an amusing twist on Harry Potter.  The further the story progressed, the more it became the author's own wildly divergent creation with its own rules and quirks.  While that's not an objectively bad thing, it wasn't a world I particularly liked.  I was charmed by "rational" Harry interacting with and trying to make sense of a brand new magical world, and I was very much able to suspend disbelief and accept this ridiculously precocious 10 year old protagonist.  That slowly eroded as other characters in his year proved just as precocious; most of the kids didn't actually seem like kids.  I still liked it well enough, but the writing at the end felt a tad too clinical for my tastes.

IIRC, the best thing I got out of it was one of the Author's Notes that linked to Worm, one of my absolute favourite works of fiction.

If you liked HPMOR, you might also enjoy Harry Potter and the Natural 20.  The basic premise -- a D&D Wizard gets dropped into Harry Potter.  Word of warning, the author is on an extended hiatus (I think), with the last update was about 15 months ago, relatively early into the author's version of Prisoner of Azkaban.  If that bothers you, you could stop after the end of their Chamber of Secrets parallel and have enough closure.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2016, 05:47:43 pm »
0

I have read HPMOR, and I enjoyed it vary much.  It's great to see a hero who is actually smart for once (not referring only to Harry Potter here, but to stories in general).
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2016, 05:53:38 pm »
0

I have read HPMOR, and I enjoyed it vary much.  It's great to see a hero who is actually smart for once (not referring only to Harry Potter here, but to stories in general).

Have you read Worm?  That was actually the reason it was mentioned in HPMOR.  The protagonist and other characters are a lot smarter with their powers than in most superhero fiction.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2016, 05:56:11 pm »
+1

It's great to see a hero who is actually smart for once (not referring only to Harry Potter here, but to stories in general).

Um.

You haven't read/watched much, I assume?

Literally just off the top of my head: Tony Stark, Veronica Mars, the main character of The Martian, and of Ancillary Justice, and Old Man's War.  The Doctor.  Jean-Luc Picard.  That's thirty seconds of thought.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2016, 05:57:56 pm »
+1

Come on, Kirian. No obligatory Picard picture? You have to post one when you mention Picard! That is one of the rules of the Internet.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2016, 06:01:29 pm »
+2

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2016, 06:26:15 pm »
0

I've read most of it and even enjoyed about 10 first chapters maybe, but the more I read the worse it became up to the point when I said to myself "cmon dude, you either do nothing at all or at least read something decent or maybe even AnotherNotSoGoodStephenKing'sBook would be better"

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2016, 06:29:29 pm »
0

I've read most of it and even enjoyed about 10 first chapters maybe, but the more I read the worse it became up to the point when I said to myself "cmon dude, you either do nothing at all or at least read something decent or maybe even AnotherNotSoGoodStephenKing'sBook would be better"
The middle part is actually quite boring but the end is worth it absolutely...Starting at chapter 79, the rest is just awesome.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2016, 06:30:57 pm »
0

Tony Stark

Debatable. :P

"I taught myself quantum and nuclear physics last night" isn't enough for you?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2016, 06:38:11 pm »
0

This is hilarious!
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2016, 06:39:28 pm »
0

This is hilarious!
Pleaae elaborate on that ;) :D
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2016, 07:11:45 pm »
0

This is hilarious!
Pleaae elaborate on that ;) :D
I have read 4 chapters and I like it so far. It's clever. Also a bit overdone but so far I am willing to overlook that.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2016, 08:10:46 pm »
+5

Tony Stark

Debatable. :P

"I taught myself quantum and nuclear physics last night" isn't enough for you?

That's the character saying he is smart, not the character being smart. Also, suspension of disbelief -> shattered.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2016, 08:30:31 pm »
0

to me, that sounds like a liar seeking admiration
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2016, 08:37:32 pm »
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HPMoR is excellent
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2016, 12:11:33 am »
0

to me, that sounds like a liar seeking admiration
It is :D
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2016, 12:22:10 am »
+1

I want to second the recommendation of Harry Potter and the Natural 20. The 3rd "book" is unfinished, but the whole thing is just really funny and exciting.

I also found worm through HPMOR, and I'm so happy I did.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2016, 03:02:41 am »
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2016, 03:11:04 am »
0

This is hilarious!
Pleaae elaborate on that ;) :D
I have read 4 chapters and I like it so far. It's clever. Also a bit overdone but so far I am willing to overlook that.
Didn't know if you have liked or hated it :D
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2016, 03:21:40 am »
+1

It's not that difficult to teach yourself some quantum mechanics or nuclear physics some random night though.

But the point still stands that there are tons and tons of smart protagonists in stories I would have come up with an entirely different list on the spot.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 03:23:37 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2016, 10:38:59 am »
0

It's not that difficult to teach yourself some quantum mechanics or nuclear physics some random night though.

Give me a freaking break, Awaclus.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2016, 11:16:32 am »
0

Quote
His father was sitting in the living-room and reading a book of higher maths to show how smart he was; and his mother was in the kitchen preparing one of his father's favourite meals to show how loving she was.

Okay I think I'll actually give this story a try.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2016, 12:04:47 pm »
+1

The only worthwhile Harry potter fanfic is My Immortal.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2016, 12:09:49 pm »
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The only worthwhile Harry potter fanfic is My Immortal.

Thanks, I had forgotten about that. *cringe*
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2016, 12:11:51 pm »
0

The only worthwhile Harry potter fanfic is My Immortal.
You seem to have read a LOT of harry potter fanfiction...
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2016, 04:00:47 pm »
0

It's not that difficult to teach yourself some quantum mechanics or nuclear physics some random night though.

Give me a freaking break, Awaclus.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the freaking break. Here's the Amen break, hopefully it'll do for now!



But seriously though. It's not like everything of quantum mechanics or nuclear physics requires you to study it for 10 years before you can understand it; anyone can understand some of the stuff if you just go on YouTube and watch videos.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 04:04:05 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2016, 04:40:20 pm »
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4 chapters in so far.

Curious if Harry will actually end up at Ravenclaw as is hinted at right now, or if the story will go for an 'oh, the hat reads your deep birth-dependent personality, and harry is still a griffindor!'

imo, the second option is not good. I hope it doesn't happen

I gotta say, I like Harry way more here than in the canon story. The person, not the character... well, the character, too. In the original story, he's probably the least sympathetic protagonist to me. The fact that he lies to his friends all the time and doesn't listen to hermione just drives me crazy.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2016, 04:42:39 pm »
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show harry is an I?FP. this is clearly an I?TJ. Much better!  ;D
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2016, 04:43:34 pm »
0

4 chapters in so far.

Curious if Harry will actually end up at Ravenclaw as is hinted at right now, or if the story will go for an 'oh, the hat reads your deep birth-dependent personality, and harry is still a griffindor!'

imo, the second option is not good. I hope it doesn't happen

I gotta say, I like Harry way more here than in the canon story. The person, not the character... well, the character, too. In the original story, he's probably the least sympathetic protagonist to me. The fact that he lies to his friends all the time and doesn't listen to hermione just drives me crazy.
I won't spoil anything but consistency is one of the most importent principles of the author.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2016, 05:11:24 pm »
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But seriously though. It's not like everything of quantum mechanics or nuclear physics requires you to study it for 10 years before you can understand it; anyone can understand some of the stuff if you just go on YouTube and watch videos.

Man, understanding a few concepts is not understanding quantum mechanics.

In any case, we are discussing a misquote. Tony Stark becomes takes one night to become an expert in "thermonuclear astrophysics". I don't even remember if that field was relevant to the discussion in the movie.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2016, 05:22:11 pm »
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Thermonuclear astrophysics? I'd say Tony Stark is much better in the field of being a thermonuclear ass.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2016, 05:36:31 pm »
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But seriously though. It's not like everything of quantum mechanics or nuclear physics requires you to study it for 10 years before you can understand it; anyone can understand some of the stuff if you just go on YouTube and watch videos.

Man, understanding a few concepts is not understanding quantum mechanics.

But studying a few concepts is studying quantum mechanics.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2016, 06:23:10 pm »
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Okay this is actually not just funny, but kind of amazing. Thanks for sharing it.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2016, 07:31:57 pm »
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But seriously though. It's not like everything of quantum mechanics or nuclear physics requires you to study it for 10 years before you can understand it; anyone can understand some of the stuff if you just go on YouTube and watch videos.

Man, understanding a few concepts is not understanding quantum mechanics.

But studying a few concepts is studying quantum mechanics.

In the same way that playing Guitar Hero is playing the guitar, yes.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2016, 08:06:57 pm »
+1

In the same way that playing Guitar Hero is playing the guitar, yes.

No, in the same way that listening to Mozart's 40th symphony is listening to Mozart. You are very literally listening to Mozart if you're listening to his 40th symphony, much like you're very literally studying quantum mechanics if you're studying concepts of quantum mechanics. If you say that you were listening to Mozart last night, nobody thinks that you mean you listened to every single piece written by Mozart last night, they are probably going to assume that you just listened to his 40th symphony. Likewise, if you say that you were studying quantum mechanics last night, everyone will just assume that you studied a few basic concepts, not that you understand everything that there is to know about quantum mechanics now. If you say that you were playing the guitar last night and the truth is that you just played Guitar Hero, that statement is both factually false and misleading.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2016, 08:14:00 pm »
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I won't spoil anything but consistency is one of the most importent principles of the author.


               ...       
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2016, 08:15:26 pm »
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...... I stopped reading when I saw the initial reveal and didn't realize that it was a joke when I made the last post. whelp.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2016, 09:35:48 pm »
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In the same way that playing Guitar Hero is playing the guitar, yes.

No, in the same way that listening to Mozart's 40th symphony is listening to Mozart. You are very literally listening to Mozart if you're listening to his 40th symphony, much like you're very literally studying quantum mechanics if you're studying concepts of quantum mechanics. If you say that you were listening to Mozart last night, nobody thinks that you mean you listened to every single piece written by Mozart last night, they are probably going to assume that you just listened to his 40th symphony. Likewise, if you say that you were studying quantum mechanics last night, everyone will just assume that you studied a few basic concepts, not that you understand everything that there is to know about quantum mechanics now. If you say that you were playing the guitar last night and the truth is that you just played Guitar Hero, that statement is both factually false and misleading.

The Gadfly of f.ds, Awaclates
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2016, 09:40:55 pm »
+3

In the same way that playing Guitar Hero is playing the guitar, yes.

No, in the same way that listening to Mozart's 40th symphony is listening to Mozart. You are very literally listening to Mozart if you're listening to his 40th symphony, much like you're very literally studying quantum mechanics if you're studying concepts of quantum mechanics. If you say that you were listening to Mozart last night, nobody thinks that you mean you listened to every single piece written by Mozart last night, they are probably going to assume that you just listened to his 40th symphony. Likewise, if you say that you were studying quantum mechanics last night, everyone will just assume that you studied a few basic concepts, not that you understand everything that there is to know about quantum mechanics now. If you say that you were playing the guitar last night and the truth is that you just played Guitar Hero, that statement is both factually false and misleading.

You're missing a difference in context and wording.  What you're saying is accurate if the statement was "I was studying quantum mechanics".  That's not the statement though.  Here's what Kirian (mis)quoted:

"I taught myself quantum and nuclear physics last night"

Unlike your Mozart example, the context and wording here implies that the speaker started and finished the process in that one night.  If he had started earlier, he would say "I finished teaching myself".  If he had only started on some concepts but not finished, he would say "I taught myself some" or "I was teaching myself".  Or he would use the word you used, "I studied".  These subtle differences matter and convey different meanings.

And pacovf made this correction(?):

In any case, we are discussing a misquote. Tony Stark becomes takes one night to become an expert in "thermonuclear astrophysics". I don't even remember if that field was relevant to the discussion in the movie.

I can't fully remember what Stark said exactly, but he definitely implied (or maybe explicitly stated) that he became an expert in a highly advanced field in a single night.  And that's what people have been talking about.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2016, 10:34:40 pm »
+3

Unlike your Mozart example, the context and wording here implies that the speaker started and finished the process in that one night.  If he had started earlier, he would say "I finished teaching myself".  If he had only started on some concepts but not finished, he would say "I taught myself some" or "I was teaching myself".  Or he would use the word you used, "I studied".  These subtle differences matter and convey different meanings.

That's true and I should have even known that. Man, why do you need so many past tenses in English?

As far as me teaching myself physics is concerned, I did, however, somehow manage to use the "some" wording:

It's not that difficult to teach yourself some quantum mechanics or nuclear physics some random night though.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2016, 11:18:07 pm »
+1

Unlike your Mozart example, the context and wording here implies that the speaker started and finished the process in that one night.  If he had started earlier, he would say "I finished teaching myself".  If he had only started on some concepts but not finished, he would say "I taught myself some" or "I was teaching myself".  Or he would use the word you used, "I studied".  These subtle differences matter and convey different meanings.

That's true and I should have even known that. Man, why do you need so many past tenses in English?

As far as me teaching myself physics is concerned, I did, however, somehow manage to use the "some" wording:

It's not that difficult to teach yourself some quantum mechanics or nuclear physics some random night though.

English only has one past tense.  We do have a bunch of what are called "aspects" that track time more thoroughly... it's one weird place where English is almost agglomerative.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2016, 11:20:24 pm »
+1

Man, why do you need so many past tenses in English?

Eh, languages can't all be past perfect continuous.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2016, 11:24:28 pm »
+2

Based on the recommendations on this thread, I have started Harry Potter and the Natural 20, and I just finished the Philosopher's Stone section.  I'm really enjoying it so far.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2016, 11:53:18 pm »
+1

English only has one past tense.  We do have a bunch of what are called "aspects" that track time more thoroughly... it's one weird place where English is almost agglomerative.

Yeah, I didn't even know that they were technically not considered separate tenses (that's actually pretty cool to know) the point is that we don't have them in Finnish.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2016, 07:34:23 am »
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Okay this is actually not just funny, but kind of amazing. Thanks for sharing it.
You're welcome ;)
What scene did you read last?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2016, 08:16:45 am »
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...... I stopped reading when I saw the initial reveal and didn't realize that it was a joke when I made the last post. whelp.
What was in there? :D
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2016, 09:10:01 am »
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...... I stopped reading when I saw the initial reveal and didn't realize that it was a joke when I made the last post. whelp.
What was in there? :D

I meant when the hat announced Harry was in Slitherin

Okay this is actually not just funny, but kind of amazing. Thanks for sharing it.
You're welcome ;)
What scene did you read last?

Don't remember which chapter it was. Something pre-Hogwarts
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