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Author Topic: Storyteller...?  (Read 3926 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2016, 10:02:52 pm »
0

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

Hmm, alright. But I think Ironworks would fail to give you a bonus with either interpretation of Trader. There would still be a question of whether "it" refers to the card Ironworks originally tried to gain (and didn't) or whatever card was ultimately gained.

Yeah, you're right about that last part. If it referred to the card you originally chose, you would get the bonus from that.

If it refers to the card that was gained though, it could be construed to mean the Silver if Silver were just substituted for the original card.

LastFootnote

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2016, 10:28:11 pm »
+1

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

Hmm, alright. But I think Ironworks would fail to give you a bonus with either interpretation of Trader. There would still be a question of whether "it" refers to the card Ironworks originally tried to gain (and didn't) or whatever card was ultimately gained.

Yeah, you're right about that last part. If it referred to the card you originally chose, you would get the bonus from that.

If it refers to the card that was gained though, it could be construed to mean the Silver if Silver were just substituted for the original card.

What if Trader said, "When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to instead gain a Silver and an Estate." It would have other problems then, but the point is, which card would Ironworks be referring to?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2016, 12:09:31 am »
0

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

Hmm, alright. But I think Ironworks would fail to give you a bonus with either interpretation of Trader. There would still be a question of whether "it" refers to the card Ironworks originally tried to gain (and didn't) or whatever card was ultimately gained.

Ironworks aside, the issue also came up originally with Torturer. If you use Trader to get a Silver instead of a Curse, that Silver goes to your discard pile. If Torturer only replaces the card that you were gaining, a supposed to replacing the gain itself with a different event (also a gain), then th Silver would go to your hand.
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AJD

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2016, 01:09:10 pm »
0

I have ruled - in a PM to Stef - that Nomad Camp's effect is "beaten" by whatever other effect. Transmogrify into a Nomad Camp and it goes to your hand. I think Nomad Camp is the only card this ruling is relevant for; the other ways to affect a gained card's destination, that don't actually gain the card, happen after it visits the discard pile or wherever, and of course only one effect can be causing the gain.

So—from another thread—this doesn't apply to Villa, is that right? Villa does visit the discard pile (or wherever) and then move to hand?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2016, 01:15:19 pm »
+1

I have ruled - in a PM to Stef - that Nomad Camp's effect is "beaten" by whatever other effect. Transmogrify into a Nomad Camp and it goes to your hand. I think Nomad Camp is the only card this ruling is relevant for; the other ways to affect a gained card's destination, that don't actually gain the card, happen after it visits the discard pile or wherever, and of course only one effect can be causing the gain.

So—from another thread—this doesn't apply to Villa, is that right? Villa does visit the discard pile (or wherever) and then move to hand?

Correct.
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Seprix

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2016, 02:02:51 pm »
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It seems to me that Nomad Camp would go on top of your deck when you gain it, even with Transmogrify, but Donald rules what Donald rules.
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Chappy7

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2017, 06:09:56 pm »
0

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

Hmm, alright. But I think Ironworks would fail to give you a bonus with either interpretation of Trader. There would still be a question of whether "it" refers to the card Ironworks originally tried to gain (and didn't) or whatever card was ultimately gained.

Ironworks aside, the issue also came up originally with Torturer. If you use Trader to get a Silver instead of a Curse, that Silver goes to your discard pile. If Torturer only replaces the card that you were gaining, a supposed to replacing the gain itself with a different event (also a gain), then th Silver would go to your hand.

So where does the silver end up? It's quite possible I've been playing trader wrong.
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Awaclus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2017, 06:43:12 pm »
0

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

Hmm, alright. But I think Ironworks would fail to give you a bonus with either interpretation of Trader. There would still be a question of whether "it" refers to the card Ironworks originally tried to gain (and didn't) or whatever card was ultimately gained.

Ironworks aside, the issue also came up originally with Torturer. If you use Trader to get a Silver instead of a Curse, that Silver goes to your discard pile. If Torturer only replaces the card that you were gaining, a supposed to replacing the gain itself with a different event (also a gain), then th Silver would go to your hand.

So where does the silver end up? It's quite possible I've been playing trader wrong.

In your discard pile.

Asper

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2017, 08:58:00 am »
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- Trader: That the whole gain is canceled instead of Silver replacing the card is only in the rulebook.

- Inheritance: Doesn't state when an Estate is yours.

These are really stretching. The rulebook explains what "when you would gain" and "your [cardName]" mean and it's fine to have those rules there. This is like complaining that you have to look in the rulebook to see what "+3 Cards" means on Smithy.

I agree on Trader, but Inheritance triggering on buy is not at all obvious from my perspective.

Edit: I guess there are two pieces of my confusion here: First, is "mine" about possession or property? Maybe the bought card is my property, but obviously it wouldn't be worth any points if the game ended this instant, would it? It's not part of my kingdom. Given that cards bought by one player can become part of what another player "has" with Masquerade, and that you can actually not end up not having something you bought thanks to Trader, my intuition would tell me Dominion is about actual possession, and not owning stuff.

Second: Doesn't ownership change AFTER buying? I mean, did I buy an Estate that's mine? Probably not, right? I bought the supply's Estate, now it's mine, I gain my Estate.

Donald X.

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2017, 04:06:37 pm »
+2

I agree on Trader, but Inheritance triggering on buy is not at all obvious from my perspective.
I don't think it's obvious, but I did think that anyone Inheriting a card with a +Buy trigger was going to expect to do that trigger. So that's how the rules work there.
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pacovf

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2017, 05:35:37 pm »
+10

Second: Doesn't ownership change AFTER buying? I mean, did I buy an Estate that's mine? Probably not, right? I bought the supply's Estate, now it's mine, I gain my Estate.

Sorry had to

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Asper

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2017, 11:16:06 pm »
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It's interesting to me how different games can be.

Dominion barely has any hardcoded interactions at all, which I find immensely impressive, as for the most part, you can just logically deduce how things have to be. On the other hand, theme is without meaning, gameplay-wise.

Another one of my favourite games has dozends of hardcoded interactions. However, it is also immensely thematic, which means you can always just go with what "makes sense".

This isn't really an answer to anything, it just occured to me when thinking about how people approach unclear rules.
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