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Author Topic: Storyteller...?  (Read 3921 times)

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AJD

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2016, 11:47:03 am »
0

In what particular context does that matter? When something wants to move nomad camp?

I guess?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2016, 12:10:14 pm »
+2

In what particular context does that matter? When something wants to move nomad camp?

I guess?

It matters with regard to the "lose track" rule, if it was gained to the discard and then moved itself, Summon would lose track, and be unable to set it aside.  Instead it is gained directly to the top of the deck, and is where Summon expects it to be and is set aside successfully.

Might be other examples. I'm not sure.

LastFootnote

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2016, 02:21:37 pm »
0

In what particular context does that matter? When something wants to move nomad camp?

I guess?

It matters with regard to the "lose track" rule, if it was gained to the discard and then moved itself, Summon would lose track, and be unable to set it aside.  Instead it is gained directly to the top of the deck, and is where Summon expects it to be and is set aside successfully.

Might be other examples. I'm not sure.

It also matters when you gain Nomad Camp to a place other than your discard or deck top (e.g. to your hand with Transmogrify). Anyway Transmogrify gains precedence; you do not have the option of putting the Nomad Camp onto your deck instead.
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AJD

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2016, 02:52:45 pm »
0

[It also matters when you gain Nomad Camp to a place other than your discard or deck top (e.g. to your hand with Transmogrify). Anyway Transmogrify gains precedence; you do not have the option of putting the Nomad Camp onto your deck instead.

The wiki says that's not quite true:
"A card that moves Nomad Camp somewhere else when it is gained (such as Transmogrify) gives the player a choice—either gain it to your deck, or where the other card is trying to gain it to—since both destinations try to happen at the same time."
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LastFootnote

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2016, 02:54:52 pm »
+1

[It also matters when you gain Nomad Camp to a place other than your discard or deck top (e.g. to your hand with Transmogrify). Anyway Transmogrify gains precedence; you do not have the option of putting the Nomad Camp onto your deck instead.

The wiki says that's not quite true:
"A card that moves Nomad Camp somewhere else when it is gained (such as Transmogrify) gives the player a choice—either gain it to your deck, or where the other card is trying to gain it to—since both destinations try to happen at the same time."

I believe that's incorrect. When you gain a card with Armory, you do not get to decide to put that card into your discard pile, even though that's the default destination for gained cards. Nomad Camp just has a different default destination; anything else should override that.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 03:58:35 pm by LastFootnote »
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AJD

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2016, 03:06:58 pm »
+1

[It also matters when you gain Nomad Camp to a place other than your discard or deck top (e.g. to your hand with Transmogrify). Anyway Transmogrify gains precedence; you do not have the option of putting the Nomad Camp onto your deck instead.

The wiki says that's not quite true:
"A card that moves Nomad Camp somewhere else when it is gained (such as Transmogrify) gives the player a choice—either gain it to your deck, or where the other card is trying to gain it to—since both destinations try to happen at the same time."

I believe that's incorrect. When you gain a card with Armory, you do not get to decided to put that card into your discard pile, even though that's the default destination for gained cards. Nomad Camp just has a different default destination; anything else should override that.

I think the answer to that is, there's no such thing as a "different default destination"; Nomad Camp overrides the default destination in the exact same way that Armory does, and so Nomad Camp and Transmogrify are competing to override the default simultaneously. I think.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2016, 03:14:29 pm »
+3

What even is this card?

1. Bank?
2. With Quarry, you can play Storyteller, then Quarry, then gain an Adventurer with your Workshop, right?
3. Relic still attacks, right?
4. Crown? Like, what?
5. Can you still Counterfeit another Treasure? If so, does the Counterfeited treasure draw you cards or give you moola?
6. If you play Royal Seal with Storyteller, Can you topdeck cards from your Workshop?How about cards you buy?
7. Does Loan do the Loan thing?
8. Rocks?
9. Does Hoard do the fun Hoard Gold gain?

People think Storyteller don't be like it is, but it do.
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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2016, 04:40:50 pm »
0

Seriously, people. The cards always literally do just exactly what they say except for Pirate Ship

And Nomad Camp, and also now Possession.

Also Black Market.

And Envoy. But yeah, even with all that said, the answer to almost every rules question in Dominion is "do what the card says to do."

There are some others. Here are the most important ones:

- Duchess says "in games using this", but should have said "when this is in supply", to account for Black Market. (This is addressed in the rulebook.)

- Ironworks and about 4 or 5 other cards don't specify what "it" means.

- Inn doesn't specify what happens when you choose zero cards from your discard pile.

- Prince has a couple of clarifications in the rulebook that are not addressed on the card (such as Princing an Island).

- Salvager should refer to the cost in coins (mentioned in Alchemy rulebook).

- Stash (obviously) only triggers when it's already in your deck, but doesn't say that.

- Tournament: The setup of the Prize pile (that all Prizes are available) is only mentioned in the rulebook. Likewise that you can choose to gain nothing if either the Prize pile or Duchy pile is empty. Also the timing, which is different from Spy etc.

- Trader: That the whole gain is canceled instead of Silver replacing the card is only in the rulebook.

- Inheritance: Doesn't state when an Estate is yours.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 06:42:03 pm by Jeebus »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2016, 04:47:54 pm »
+4

- Trader: That the whole gain is canceled instead of Silver replacing the card is only in the rulebook.

- Inheritance: Doesn't state when an Estate is yours.

These are really stretching. The rulebook explains what "when you would gain" and "your [cardName]" mean and it's fine to have those rules there. This is like complaining that you have to look in the rulebook to see what "+3 Cards" means on Smithy.
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singletee

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2016, 04:49:12 pm »
+6

- Stash (obviously) only triggers when it's already in your deck, but doesn't say that.

I feel like this could be a great troll move: after you finish turn 2 of a game with Stash, when you reshuffle, just casually pick up the pile and put it on your deck.

Donald X.

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2016, 04:50:29 pm »
+3

[It also matters when you gain Nomad Camp to a place other than your discard or deck top (e.g. to your hand with Transmogrify). Anyway Transmogrify gains precedence; you do not have the option of putting the Nomad Camp onto your deck instead.

The wiki says that's not quite true:
"A card that moves Nomad Camp somewhere else when it is gained (such as Transmogrify) gives the player a choice—either gain it to your deck, or where the other card is trying to gain it to—since both destinations try to happen at the same time."

I believe that's incorrect. When you gain a card with Armory, you do not get to decided to put that card into your discard pile, even though that's the default destination for gained cards. Nomad Camp just has a different default destination; anything else should override that.

I think the answer to that is, there's no such thing as a "different default destination"; Nomad Camp overrides the default destination in the exact same way that Armory does, and so Nomad Camp and Transmogrify are competing to override the default simultaneously. I think.
I have ruled - in a PM to Stef - that Nomad Camp's effect is "beaten" by whatever other effect. Transmogrify into a Nomad Camp and it goes to your hand. I think Nomad Camp is the only card this ruling is relevant for; the other ways to affect a gained card's destination, that don't actually gain the card, happen after it visits the discard pile or wherever, and of course only one effect can be causing the gain.

I don't think it's clear from even a hypothetical fixed wording of Nomad Camp, and previously ruled the other way.
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AJD

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2016, 04:55:58 pm »
0

[It also matters when you gain Nomad Camp to a place other than your discard or deck top (e.g. to your hand with Transmogrify). Anyway Transmogrify gains precedence; you do not have the option of putting the Nomad Camp onto your deck instead.

The wiki says that's not quite true:
"A card that moves Nomad Camp somewhere else when it is gained (such as Transmogrify) gives the player a choice—either gain it to your deck, or where the other card is trying to gain it to—since both destinations try to happen at the same time."

I believe that's incorrect. When you gain a card with Armory, you do not get to decided to put that card into your discard pile, even though that's the default destination for gained cards. Nomad Camp just has a different default destination; anything else should override that.

I think the answer to that is, there's no such thing as a "different default destination"; Nomad Camp overrides the default destination in the exact same way that Armory does, and so Nomad Camp and Transmogrify are competing to override the default simultaneously. I think.
I have ruled - in a PM to Stef - that Nomad Camp's effect is "beaten" by whatever other effect. Transmogrify into a Nomad Camp and it goes to your hand. I think Nomad Camp is the only card this ruling is relevant for; the other ways to affect a gained card's destination, that don't actually gain the card, happen after it visits the discard pile or wherever, and of course only one effect can be causing the gain.

I don't think it's clear from even a hypothetical fixed wording of Nomad Camp, and previously ruled the other way.

Okay, thanks for the clarification!
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AJD

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2016, 04:57:31 pm »
0

- Duchess says "in games using this", but should have said "when this is in supply", to account for Black Market. (This is addressed in the rulebook.)

I'm not sure what you understand the effective difference to be between these wordings.
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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2016, 05:37:17 pm »
0

- Trader: That the whole gain is canceled instead of Silver replacing the card is only in the rulebook.

- Inheritance: Doesn't state when an Estate is yours.

These are really stretching. The rulebook explains what "when you would gain" and "your [cardName]" mean and it's fine to have those rules there. This is like complaining that you have to look in the rulebook to see what "+3 Cards" means on Smithy.

It's not stretching, it's nitpicking. I have not said that those rules should be on the cards. I was merely stating that you need the rulebook to play them correctly. This is not at all like Smithy, which only has terms explained in the rules proper. The cards I mentioned have explanations in the FAQ section of the rulebooks, exactly like Black Market and Nomad Camp.

(Just a side note: The rulebook doesn't give the full explanation of what "your Estates" mean either. There are corner cases omitted, like Fortress, Possession...)

Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2016, 05:42:07 pm »
0

- Duchess says "in games using this", but should have said "when this is in supply", to account for Black Market. (This is addressed in the rulebook.)

I'm not sure what you understand the effective difference to be between these wordings.

That the ability doesn't apply when Duchess is in the BM deck. It needs to be in supply.
It was clarified in the rulebook FAQ like this: "Duchess does not interact in any special way with Black Market."

LastFootnote

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2016, 05:48:21 pm »
+4

- Trader: That the whole gain is canceled instead of Silver replacing the card is only in the rulebook.

- Inheritance: Doesn't state when an Estate is yours.

These are really stretching. The rulebook explains what "when you would gain" and "your [cardName]" mean and it's fine to have those rules there. This is like complaining that you have to look in the rulebook to see what "+3 Cards" means on Smithy.

It's not stretching, it's nitpicking. I have not said that those rules should be on the cards. I was merely stating that you need the rulebook to play them correctly. This is not at all like Smithy, which only has terms explained in the rules proper. The cards I mentioned have explanations in the FAQ section of the rulebooks, exactly like Black Market and Nomad Camp.

(Just a side note: The rulebook doesn't give the full explanation of what "your Estates" mean either. There are corner cases omitted, like Fortress, Possession...)

That's not the same at all. Trader and Inheritance just use rules that aren't used on very many cards. Black Market and Nomad Camp's wordings are actually wrong. Black Market should say "you may play any number of Treasures from your hand" and Nomad Camp should have some other wording that isn't exactly like when-you-gain abilities, since it's not one. Trader and Inheritance are worded correctly.
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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2016, 05:58:16 pm »
0

- Trader: That the whole gain is canceled instead of Silver replacing the card is only in the rulebook.

- Inheritance: Doesn't state when an Estate is yours.

These are really stretching. The rulebook explains what "when you would gain" and "your [cardName]" mean and it's fine to have those rules there. This is like complaining that you have to look in the rulebook to see what "+3 Cards" means on Smithy.

It's not stretching, it's nitpicking. I have not said that those rules should be on the cards. I was merely stating that you need the rulebook to play them correctly. This is not at all like Smithy, which only has terms explained in the rules proper. The cards I mentioned have explanations in the FAQ section of the rulebooks, exactly like Black Market and Nomad Camp.

(Just a side note: The rulebook doesn't give the full explanation of what "your Estates" mean either. There are corner cases omitted, like Fortress, Possession...)

That's not the same at all. Trader and Inheritance just use rules that aren't used on very many cards. Black Market and Nomad Camp's wordings are actually wrong. Black Market should say "you may play any number of Treasures from your hand" and Nomad Camp should have some other wording that isn't exactly like when-you-gain abilities, since it's not one. Trader and Inheritance are worded correctly.

Ok, the concept of card ownership was invented (at least officially) for Inheritance, but you could say that it's meant to be a general concept.

However, I don't agree about Trader. It says, "instead, gain a silver," but doesn't specify instead of what. There's nothing special about the word "instead". It's just as wrong as Black Market. Nothing on Black Market is actually wrong, it just omits something. I grant you that it's an extremely more important piece of information that is omitted, but nevertheless.

eHalcyon

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2016, 06:28:04 pm »
+1

- Duchess says "in games using this", but should have said "when this is in supply", to account for Black Market. (This is addressed in the rulebook.)

I'm not sure what you understand the effective difference to be between these wordings.

That the ability doesn't apply when Duchess is in the BM deck. It needs to be in supply.
It was clarified in the rulebook FAQ like this: "Duchess does not interact in any special way with Black Market."

But what's the practical difference?  Suppose Duchess is in the BM deck.  You gain a Duchy.  Since the game is using Duchess and the card says what it says, you now have the option of gaining a Duchess.  Except whatever you decide, in practice you can't gain the Duchess because Duchess isn't available to gain in the Supply.

However, I don't agree about Trader. It says, "instead, gain a silver," but doesn't specify instead of what. There's nothing special about the word "instead". It's just as wrong as Black Market. Nothing on Black Market is actually wrong, it just omits something. I grant you that it's an extremely more important piece of information that is omitted, but nevertheless.

"When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Silver."

It's pretty clear to me that the "instead" is replacing the trigger effect with a different effect.

"When you [do a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, [do a different thing]."
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Donald X.

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2016, 06:30:09 pm »
+3

- Duchess says "in games using this", but should have said "when this is in supply", to account for Black Market. (This is addressed in the rulebook.)

I'm not sure what you understand the effective difference to be between these wordings.

That the ability doesn't apply when Duchess is in the BM deck. It needs to be in supply.
It was clarified in the rulebook FAQ like this: "Duchess does not interact in any special way with Black Market."
While I agree that Duchess could have a better wording, that FAQ doesn't do anything at all; it's just there for people who wonder about it. You can also argue that that FAQ is bad, since why is there a FAQ that says so little; at the time there were people that wanted some mention of Black Market in the FAQ.

You can't gain a card except from the Supply, unless the card spells this out; Duchess doesn't spell it out; thus you can't gain it from the Black Market deck via its ability.
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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2016, 06:41:28 pm »
0

- Duchess says "in games using this", but should have said "when this is in supply", to account for Black Market. (This is addressed in the rulebook.)

I'm not sure what you understand the effective difference to be between these wordings.

That the ability doesn't apply when Duchess is in the BM deck. It needs to be in supply.
It was clarified in the rulebook FAQ like this: "Duchess does not interact in any special way with Black Market."

But what's the practical difference?  Suppose Duchess is in the BM deck.  You gain a Duchy.  Since the game is using Duchess and the card says what it says, you now have the option of gaining a Duchess.  Except whatever you decide, in practice you can't gain the Duchess because Duchess isn't available to gain in the Supply.
You are entirely correct about that, and I withdraw Duchess from the list!

However, I don't agree about Trader. It says, "instead, gain a silver," but doesn't specify instead of what. There's nothing special about the word "instead". It's just as wrong as Black Market. Nothing on Black Market is actually wrong, it just omits something. I grant you that it's an extremely more important piece of information that is omitted, but nevertheless.

"When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Silver."

It's pretty clear to me that the "instead" is replacing the trigger effect with a different effect.

"When you [do a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, [do a different thing]."
Why couldn't it just as well be?:
"When you do [a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, do [a different thing]."

Certainly many people thought so, and I really don't see that the text can't be interpreted either way.

GendoIkari

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2016, 07:06:05 pm »
+1


However, I don't agree about Trader. It says, "instead, gain a silver," but doesn't specify instead of what. There's nothing special about the word "instead". It's just as wrong as Black Market. Nothing on Black Market is actually wrong, it just omits something. I grant you that it's an extremely more important piece of information that is omitted, but nevertheless.

"When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Silver."

It's pretty clear to me that the "instead" is replacing the trigger effect with a different effect.

"When you [do a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, [do a different thing]."
Why couldn't it just as well be?:
"When you do [a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, do [a different thing]."

Certainly many people thought so, and I really don't see that the text can't be interpreted either way.

I think I have to go with Jeebus here; though not so much with the "card is worded wrong" thing. Nomad Camp, Pirate Ship, and Enovy are all actually incorrect as to what they tell you. Incorrect is different than ambiguous. Black Market is sort of in between; it's also more than just ambiguous; as it doesn't have a wording that could be interpreted 2 different ways; it's just flat-out missing instructions. But its mistake is one of omission.

I think with Trader, we have all for so long known how Trader works that we just assume that it's clear, because we know how to do it. But seeing Jeebus's argument here, I'd have to agree that without any of the discussion or rules surrounding it, Trader could be equally seen as "instead" being "instead of the card you would gain" or "instead of gaining the card".
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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2016, 07:34:55 pm »
0

I think I have to go with Jeebus here; though not so much with the "card is worded wrong" thing. Nomad Camp, Pirate Ship, and Enovy are all actually incorrect as to what they tell you. Incorrect is different than ambiguous. Black Market is sort of in between; it's also more than just ambiguous; as it doesn't have a wording that could be interpreted 2 different ways; it's just flat-out missing instructions. But its mistake is one of omission.

Agreed. Possession now also has a "mistake" of omission. I would say the same goes for Tournament (although I assume it's omitted on purpose because of space). The only one I mentioned that is wrong, in the same sense as Nomad Camp, Pirate Ship and Envoy, is Stash (although nobody would ever misunderstand it). The rest of the cards I mentioned are all ambiguities like Trader.

So I guess we have three somewhat loosely defined categories of cards that don't do literally what they say. Only four are really wrong, and three are missing information.

eHalcyon

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2016, 08:58:15 pm »
0


However, I don't agree about Trader. It says, "instead, gain a silver," but doesn't specify instead of what. There's nothing special about the word "instead". It's just as wrong as Black Market. Nothing on Black Market is actually wrong, it just omits something. I grant you that it's an extremely more important piece of information that is omitted, but nevertheless.

"When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Silver."

It's pretty clear to me that the "instead" is replacing the trigger effect with a different effect.

"When you [do a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, [do a different thing]."
Why couldn't it just as well be?:
"When you do [a certain thing], you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, instead, do [a different thing]."

Certainly many people thought so, and I really don't see that the text can't be interpreted either way.

I think I have to go with Jeebus here; though not so much with the "card is worded wrong" thing. Nomad Camp, Pirate Ship, and Enovy are all actually incorrect as to what they tell you. Incorrect is different than ambiguous. Black Market is sort of in between; it's also more than just ambiguous; as it doesn't have a wording that could be interpreted 2 different ways; it's just flat-out missing instructions. But its mistake is one of omission.

I think with Trader, we have all for so long known how Trader works that we just assume that it's clear, because we know how to do it. But seeing Jeebus's argument here, I'd have to agree that without any of the discussion or rules surrounding it, Trader could be equally seen as "instead" being "instead of the card you would gain" or "instead of gaining the card".

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...
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Jeebus

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2016, 09:08:23 pm »
0

I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

eHalcyon

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Re: Storyteller...?
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2016, 09:23:29 pm »
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I must be missing something here... What does the alternative interpretation of Trader do that is different? I'm not seeing the ambiguity...

Whether Trader "interrupts the gaining process" to replace the card with a Silver, or cancels the whole gaining process and creates a new one.
This came up with the question Ironworks + Trader, although it's also implied in the rulebook (since it says that the Silver will come from supply and go to your discard pile no matter what the other card was gonna do). If Trader just replaced the Silver, Ironworks would get you +$1 and there would be no question about what "it" refers to.

Hmm, alright. But I think Ironworks would fail to give you a bonus with either interpretation of Trader. There would still be a question of whether "it" refers to the card Ironworks originally tried to gain (and didn't) or whatever card was ultimately gained.
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