Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count  (Read 7412 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5607
  • Respect: +3676
    • View Profile
Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« on: May 23, 2016, 09:08:56 pm »
+4


Count
"AH AH AH AH AH!"
                           -Count von Count


Count is sort of like Steward because both are versatile. You get one 'bad' effect, and then one very good effect. Sometimes the bad effect isn't even bad at all, and you're only too happy to take that extra copper or topdeck the Mountebank whilst thinning. Count is primarily picked up for the trashing effect or the Duchy gaining effect, but the $3 effect is not bad either.

  • What are good Kingdoms for Count? Bad Kingdoms?
  • Is Count a good trasher? Is it outclassed by other trashers, or does it hold its own?
  • Does the cost of Count potentially hold it down from becoming very good?

for more reading on Count: Shark_bait's Article [2012]
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 09:17:31 pm by Seprix »
Logged
DM me for ideas on a new article, either here or on Discord (I check Discord way more often)

schadd

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 892
  • Shuffle iT Username: schadd
  • Respect: +1266
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 09:52:19 pm »
+5

the fun part is when you learn that you should gain copper instead of topdeck copper in the early game.

anyway, count has 9 permutations, except, well, it's not like the two decisions are meaningfully interdependent. you buy count as a trasher pretty much always but hey it does stuff later.

good kingdoms: engine, duke, tunnel
bad: the other ones

it is a good trasher. if you have a lotta draw and a lotta curses, shoo wee. i mean, trash three for $5 is okay on its own. this card sorta brings more to the table after you're done with that but jeez, we can buy other cards to do that stuff.

it can gain duchies so you usually uh don't have to worry about the opportunity cost of duchy.

nice thematic combo with tactician: it is good as a pre-tactician thing to do and well, count is tactics, so the tactician should be able to help you with that.
Logged
I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3457
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2016, 10:47:55 pm »
0

Count is an elite Trasher that gets you Provinces or Duchies later. It's a little slow since it costs $5, and in games where you have to pass on playing it (Enchantress, Pillage, discard attacks) it can be more trouble than it's worth, but usually it's a pretty good Trasher and the effects give you lots of options.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2016, 11:07:19 pm »
0

DoubleCount is nice.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1762
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2017
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 12:05:31 am »
0

DoubleCount is nice.

81 possibilities!
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 12:48:43 am »
0

DoubleCount is nice.

81 possibilities!

Usually it's just top deck your other Count, then pick your poison.  So, 3 possibilities.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

ackmondual

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 463
  • Respect: +294
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 12:51:41 am »
0

Trashing is less fun when you're dealing with attacks that lower your hand size.

Gaining a Copper isn't always that bad.. if it's towards the end, a Copper or 3 isn't going to distort your deck that poorly.  Early game, it can be worth it to take on to Trash 4 lousy cards.

Reminds me of Mandarin where you're down one card in order to get +$3 (which is often a nice thing for a $5 card)
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

theJester

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
  • Respect: +88
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 03:58:26 am »
0

Great card, one of my favourites from Dark Ages. Pretty versatile, comes useful in a number of situations:

1) engines in general, where early whole-hand trashing is incredibly useful, while later in the game +3$ or "gain a Duchy" takes its place
2) Duke games, where Duchy-gaining is simply game-winning
3) Duchy-dancing in general in the last few turns
4) Gardens games - where both "gain a Copper" and "gain a Duchy" come in handy. +3$ as well. It's not the best Gardens supporter, but if it's a Gardens game where you have some time to build a little before greening - Count is your man.
5) it's ok in BM decks. However, if BM strategy is dominant on the board, usually there'll be a better card to supplement it
6) slogs in general

It sucks against hand size attacks, though.

   
  • Does the cost of Count potentially hold it down from becoming very good?
Don't tell me you think Count is overpriced at 5$ ?
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 05:54:38 am »
0

All of Count's bonuses are pretty strong; of it's drawbacks, gaining a Copper is probably the most harmless one.

Overall, it's a pretty strong card:
It's good in the early game for trashing, in the midgame usually for +$3 and in the endgame for Duchy-gaining.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 447
  • Respect: +352
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 01:57:22 pm »
0

   
  • Does the cost of Count potentially hold it down from becoming very good?
Don't tell me you think Count is overpriced at 5$ ?

No as it would be overpowered for 4 as getting 5/2 opening with count on board is one of best of openings as it allows to trash three cards at time and easily reach 5 once you trashed enough. Count bougth on first reshuffle is significantly worse as cards that you bought get in way. Usually when there is other trasher on board you want to open with it unless you hit lucky 5.

Also you forgot to mention silk road slogs where its significantly stronger than gardens ones due to ability to gain duchies and coppers.

 
Logged

McGarnacle

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1090
  • Shuffle iT Username: McGarnacle
  • So, ya like doughnuts, eh?
  • Respect: +641
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 04:03:18 pm »
0

  • What are good Kingdoms for Count? Bad Kingdoms?
  • Is Count a good trasher? Is it outclassed by other trashers, or does it hold its own?
  • Does the cost of Count potentially hold it down from becoming very good?

Count is good in kingdoms with no trashing or +coin. It doesn't really thrive if those are easy to get, but you might pick up one just because it can do both.

I think Count is an excellent trasher. I remember once I was building an engine were I quickly drew my deck, but I had only junk. I managed to trash all 10 of my starting cards with Count.

It can have a high opportunity cost. It all boils down to how much +coin and trashing is present in the kingdom, and at what cost.

The art is amazing, though.
Logged
This is exactly the kind of deep analysis I come to f.ds for. 

Forum Mafia Record
Town 1/2 50%
Scum 0/0

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 04:23:13 pm »
0

I remember when people first saw this card and predicted it to be the strongest card in the set.

Still, though, it is an excellent trasher, one of the best, but definitely not the strongest DA card
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1728
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2016, 04:34:39 pm »
0

good kingdoms: engine, duke, tunnel
2) Duke games, where Duchy-gaining is simply game-winning

I see in theory why Count is a Duchy/Duke enabler, but in practice is this really that common?  Duchy/Duke games tend to run out of Duchies very quickly.  Buying a Count instead of a Duchy can potentially lose you the Duchy split.  And it just seems very rare to use the Duchy-gaining before the Duchies are gone, much less use it twice.  Maybe if the Duchies aren't contested, then it's better.  The terminal-Gold of Count, and even it's Copper-gaining, are good in the Duchy/Duke slog, but then again would you rather just have a Gold instead?  I just haven't seen it very often, if ever, really feeling that strong.

To clarify though, I'm still probably going to buy Count before my first Duchy if there's no other good $5, simply to build a bit before I green.  I'd certainly buy Count over Silver.  But there are much stronger <=$5 Duchy/Duke enablers.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 04:36:08 pm by Dingan »
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2016, 04:43:39 pm »
0

If I were playing a Duchy/Duke smog, I would buy Count on my first $5
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7861
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2016, 04:47:40 pm »
0

good kingdoms: engine, duke, tunnel
2) Duke games, where Duchy-gaining is simply game-winning

I see in theory why Count is a Duchy/Duke enabler, but in practice is this really that common?  Duchy/Duke games tend to run out of Duchies very quickly.  Buying a Count instead of a Duchy can potentially lose you the Duchy split.  And it just seems very rare to use the Duchy-gaining before the Duchies are gone, much less use it twice.  Maybe if the Duchies aren't contested, then it's better.  The terminal-Gold of Count, and even it's Copper-gaining, are good in the Duchy/Duke slog, but then again would you rather just have a Gold instead?  I just haven't seen it very often, if ever, really feeling that strong.

To clarify though, I'm still probably going to buy Count before my first Duchy if there's no other good $5, simply to build a bit before I green.  I'd certainly buy Count over Silver.  But there are much stronger <=$5 Duchy/Duke enablers.

Also keep in mind that in some hands, you can gain Duchy with Count and also Buy another Duchy or a Duke.
Logged

dedicateddan

  • 2017 Dominion Online Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 400
  • Shuffle iT Username: dan brooks
  • Respect: +1058
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2016, 05:38:28 pm »
+2

If I were playing a Duchy/Duke smog, I would buy Count on my first $5

If I lived in a smoggy Duchy ran by a Duke, I would buy an air freshener for $5 :)
Logged

trivialknot

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 757
  • Respect: +1171
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 07:17:35 pm »
+4

The way I see it, there are three variants on Chapel in Dominion.  Chapel costs $2, Forge costs $7, and Count costs $5.

Chapel is the version that is extremely underpriced, so that its strength can at least be equal-opportunity.

Forge is the version that is slightly overpriced to make sure nobody gets it for the first few shuffles.  Forge's ability has a slight edge over Chapel so it doesn't feel like you're being ripped off, but I think it would be balanced if it were identical to Chapel.

Count is priced in the mid-range, where players might get access to it in first, second, or third shuffle depending on their luck.  This makes it the hardest to balance.  So as not to make the game unfair, Count's trashing ability is slightly weaker, often thinning by only three cards, and then ending your turn.  But this trashing ability by itself might not be interesting enough to compete with other $5s, so Count can do other stuff too.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2016, 01:11:33 pm »
+4

The way I see it, there are three variants on Chapel in Dominion.  Chapel costs $2, Forge costs $7, and Count costs $5.

Chapel is the version that is extremely underpriced, so that its strength can at least be equal-opportunity.

Forge is the version that is slightly overpriced to make sure nobody gets it for the first few shuffles.  Forge's ability has a slight edge over Chapel so it doesn't feel like you're being ripped off, but I think it would be balanced if it were identical to Chapel.

Count is priced in the mid-range, where players might get access to it in first, second, or third shuffle depending on their luck.  This makes it the hardest to balance.  So as not to make the game unfair, Count's trashing ability is slightly weaker, often thinning by only three cards, and then ending your turn.  But this trashing ability by itself might not be interesting enough to compete with other $5s, so Count can do other stuff too.

What a strange perspective.
Logged

luser

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 447
  • Respect: +352
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2016, 08:07:22 am »
0

After several games I found that save/count is quite strong combo as it allows you get count on 3/4 and trash extra estate with save from previous turn.
Logged

Burning Skull

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1150
  • Shuffle iT Username: Burning Skull
  • See you in the Outpost
  • Respect: +1843
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2016, 03:06:19 pm »
+4

Count's ability to topdeck unused engine components for the next turn is very helpful on a 93% of boards it appears.

assemble_me

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
  • Shuffle iT Username: assemble me
  • Dominion stream/yt junkie
  • Respect: +807
    • View Profile
Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Count
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2016, 03:40:46 am »
0

The saddest part is when you really want to trash but always draw it with your good cards. At best, even more than two  :-\
Logged
Join the f.ds Dominion league | My Twitch channel

... and none of his posts shall remain unedited
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.092 seconds with 21 queries.