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Author Topic: Disciple on Band of Misfits  (Read 4650 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2016, 06:57:39 pm »
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Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
I tried having it gain the card. It just empties piles so fast. Multiple versions tried this though.

I tried having it gain a card, then return that card to the supply. People just endlessly forgot to return the card. Maybe something could have reminded them well enough; I did not have the technology at the time.

I tried having it play a card without moving it. For all of your Band of Misfits solutions, consider duration cards and Feast. Here I was not satisfied with how the weird cases resolved.

I tried a choose one - Band of Misfits where the cards costing less than it are always Woodcutter, Throne Room, Peddler. It's not much like Band of Misfits. But you know. It's a thing you can try and I tried it. This was known as the Morphling solution, after the origin story behind that Magic card (they wanted to reprint Clone but were told the rules were too complex).

And I tried just not having Band of Misfits. That didn't work either. I gave it a good long try though.

In the end there it is. As the saying goes, we hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion.

If it were only online, would you prefer the gain the card, play it, return to supply version?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2016, 06:59:24 pm »
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That BoM as Throne Room, Woodcutter, or Peddler sounds awesome.
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Donald X.

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2016, 07:15:06 pm »
+1

If it were only online, would you prefer the gain the card, play it, return to supply version?
If it's only online you have a lot of options; I would need to try them to know what I liked the most. You could just leave it as is; the software handles the tricky cases. You could have it gain a card without lowering the pile.
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2018, 01:37:29 am »
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Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2018, 02:39:19 am »
+1

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

Disciple knows what BoM is, not where it is.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2018, 08:30:55 am »
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Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?

The second Disciple play could indeed be Raze - it's the same situation as if BoM trashes itself the first play. The second time a Throne variant checks the card, the card is a Band of Misfits, it is not whatever card it was copying before (as it is only the copy until it leaves play, no matter how or when).
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Jeebus

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2018, 08:37:56 am »
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Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?

The second Disciple play could indeed be Raze - it's the same situation as if BoM trashes itself the first play. The second time a Throne variant checks the card, the card is a Band of Misfits, it is not whatever card it was copying before (as it is only the copy until it leaves play, no matter how or when).

Yeah, but it couldn't trash itself, and I think that was the point. As Sudgy implied, Lose Track is only about moving cards. The BoM-Raze couldn't trash itself because it can only trash (move) itself from the expected location, the play area. But it can still be played (so it gives you +1 action and lets you trash a card etc) - a card can be played no matter where it is. You fail to put it into play, because of Lose Track, but you still follow the instructions. It's just, that's the rules.

GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2018, 10:41:02 am »
+2

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?

The second Disciple play could indeed be Raze - it's the same situation as if BoM trashes itself the first play. The second time a Throne variant checks the card, the card is a Band of Misfits, it is not whatever card it was copying before (as it is only the copy until it leaves play, no matter how or when).

Yeah, but it couldn't trash itself, and I think that was the point. As Sudgy implied, Lose Track is only about moving cards. The BoM-Raze couldn't trash itself because it can only trash (move) itself from the expected location, the play area. But it can still be played (so it gives you +1 action and lets you trash a card etc) - a card can be played no matter where it is. You fail to put it into play, because of Lose Track, but you still follow the instructions. It's just, that's the rules.

Yes, a common misconception seems to be that Lose Track prevents you from doing things with cards such as playing them or finding out information about them (like cost). But Lose Track has never meant that. Lose Track only ever prevents moving a card. It can't ever prevent playing a card or finding out the cost or name of a card. (Though due to preventing the moving; it can cause you to not put a card in play when you play the card).
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2018, 11:53:37 am »
0

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

Have we resolved this one? It doesn't seem outlandish to me.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2018, 12:07:37 pm »
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I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

Have we resolved this one? It doesn't seem outlandish to me.

Based on everything we know, it clearly means "play this as a copy". That's how I've always interpreted it. And otherwise we would have a situation where one card is in two different places at once! In the given example, you would have to trash both the BoM and the actual top Gladiator, thereby trashing two cards.

GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2018, 12:36:58 pm »
+1

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

Have we resolved this one? It doesn't seem outlandish to me.

Based on everything we know, it clearly means "play this as a copy". That's how I've always interpreted it. And otherwise we would have a situation where one card is in two different places at once! In the given example, you would have to trash both the BoM and the actual top Gladiator, thereby trashing two cards.

Yeah I missed this one when it was asked previously. I'm quite sure that "this is that card" means "this is a copy of that card". It's quite clear that BoM is not literally another specific card; no amount of card text or rules could make it so. At best it can make it act exactly like that card in every way.

*Edit* To phrase it better, I think that if you play BoM as Smithy, then  "this is that card" means "this is a Smithy". If you play it as Gladiator, then "this is that card" means "this is a Gladiator". It does not mean "this is the specific Gladiator that is on top of the Gladiator pile".
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 12:39:57 pm by GendoIkari »
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2018, 01:20:40 pm »
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Yeah, but it couldn't trash itself, and I think that was the point. As Sudgy implied, Lose Track is only about moving cards. The BoM-Raze couldn't trash itself because it can only trash (move) itself from the expected location, the play area. But it can still be played (so it gives you +1 action and lets you trash a card etc) - a card can be played no matter where it is. You fail to put it into play, because of Lose Track, but you still follow the instructions. It's just, that's the rules.

I'm still unsure.

Throne-Raze can't trash itself a second time, because (a) you can't trash your trash, (b) it thinks it's in play but it isn't (c) both reasons would apply?  IIRC, you can still choose to trash itself, but it fails and you only get the +1 Action.

So Throne BoM-Island BoM-Raze (a) can trash itself because it's not in the trash, or (b) can't trash itself because it's expecting itself to be in play.

Is it implied in the wording of an Action that it expects itself to be in play, because that's where cards that are played usually are?  I'm sort of thinking that (b) is how it works, but... really, you could get a PhD in Lose Track Rule.  Maybe.
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2018, 01:23:40 pm »
0

Necromancer-Raze is case (a), does it work?
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2018, 03:06:42 pm »
+1

Tracking is just super weird.  Like, we can see your Fitbit, but we don't have permission to access your location.  Apparently.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2018, 03:46:42 pm »
0

Tracking is just super weird.  Like, we can see your Fitbit, but we don't have permission to access your location.  Apparently.

Exactly. There are really two kinds of tracking going on simultaneously. Since a card's properties can depend on its location, you have to unerringly (and sometimes impossibly) track its location in order to be able to know what it looks like at the instant some instructions need that information. But then there's also the more fragile tracking referred to by "lose track," which you have to note has been broken in certain situations to know not to follow instructions that tell you to move the card. So, sometimes, your left hand has to pretend it doesn't know where a card is even though your right hand is required to know exactly where it is.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2018, 07:56:17 pm »
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I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.

To reply to Minotaur, itís (c).

GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2018, 02:03:00 pm »
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I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.


It's not what the rule says, but it is why the rules exists. Donald has said that the Lose Track rule exists because it's possible to literally Lose Track of a card. Inn-Watchtower is a good example. You gain an Inn with Watchtower in hand; having at least 1 other Inn in your draw pile already. You can choose the order to resolve the on-gain effects; you choose to resolve Inn first; shuffling Inn into your draw pile. Now you choose to resolve Watchtower to trash that Inn. Lose Track needs to exist as a rule here, because it's literally impossible to ever find that Inn to trash it; there's no way of knowing when you've found it even if you were allowed to look through your draw pile.

So we are allowed to know where the Inn is, at least generally. We know it's in your draw pile. And that's enough information to tell us things like how much it costs. We just don't know specifically enough where it is to do something like moving it; that would require knowing its exact position within the draw pile. Luckily, no card will ever exist that says "this costs less if it is the third card from the top of your draw pile."

So for the fit-bit analogy, the cards are wearing a fit-bit that just doesn't do very specific locations; we can only know what city the person is in; not exactly their GPS coordinates.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 02:06:56 pm by GendoIkari »
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2018, 03:00:10 pm »
+1

I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.


It's not what the rule says, but it is why the rules exists. Donald has said that the Lose Track rule exists because it's possible to literally Lose Track of a card. Inn-Watchtower is a good example. You gain an Inn with Watchtower in hand; having at least 1 other Inn in your draw pile already. You can choose the order to resolve the on-gain effects; you choose to resolve Inn first; shuffling Inn into your draw pile. Now you choose to resolve Watchtower to trash that Inn. Lose Track needs to exist as a rule here, because it's literally impossible to ever find that Inn to trash it; there's no way of knowing when you've found it even if you were allowed to look through your draw pile.

So we are allowed to know where the Inn is, at least generally. We know it's in your draw pile. And that's enough information to tell us things like how much it costs. We just don't know specifically enough where it is to do something like moving it; that would require knowing its exact position within the draw pile. Luckily, no card will ever exist that says "this costs less if it is the third card from the top of your draw pile."

So for the fit-bit analogy, the cards are wearing a fit-bit that just doesn't do very specific locations; we can only know what city the person is in; not exactly their GPS coordinates.

It seems like the entire reason you even have a Fitbit is so that Throne Room will work more often.  It's possible to imagine other rules like, "you can't play it again if it isn't where you left it" or "put the thing in play, freeze a picture of it, and play a copy of that picture twice, treating the actual card as 'this card' for the purpose of moving stuff as long as it's where we left it".  Maybe in the latter case, it would know only that it was an Otter from the Otter pile, so it could still lower its own cost, if that's what Otters do.

The first is straightforward, but man, Throne Room is a downer now.  The latter is sort of weird, but is it weirder than canon?  idk, the difference doesn't matter that often, but when it does, my head hurts.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2018, 07:03:31 pm »
0

I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.


It's not what the rule says, but it is why the rules exists. Donald has said that the Lose Track rule exists because it's possible to literally Lose Track of a card. Inn-Watchtower is a good example.

He has said that the rule is needed because you could literally lose track. I'm not sure if that's the only reason. If it were, why not just have a rule that a card is lost track of if you don't know its exact location? It seems that the rule also exists to try to avoid situations where cards could move in unexpected or conflicting ways, for instance that Mining Village jumps out of the trash. There is another recent thread about how Lose Track could have been different, and it's about these situations, not just dealing with the rare situation where you literally lost track.

greybirdofprey

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2018, 07:45:35 am »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
I tried having it gain the card. It just empties piles so fast. Multiple versions tried this though.

I tried having it gain a card, then return that card to the supply. People just endlessly forgot to return the card. Maybe something could have reminded them well enough; I did not have the technology at the time.

I tried having it play a card without moving it. For all of your Band of Misfits solutions, consider duration cards and Feast. Here I was not satisfied with how the weird cases resolved.

I tried a choose one - Band of Misfits where the cards costing less than it are always Woodcutter, Throne Room, Peddler. It's not much like Band of Misfits. But you know. It's a thing you can try and I tried it. This was known as the Morphling solution, after the origin story behind that Magic card (they wanted to reprint Clone but were told the rules were too complex).

And I tried just not having Band of Misfits. That didn't work either. I gave it a good long try though.

In the end there it is. As the saying goes, we hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion.

Have you tried making it usable with reserve cards for the second edition?
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Donald X.

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2018, 04:29:29 pm »
0

Have you tried making it usable with reserve cards for the second edition?
Reserve cards didn't exist back when, and the intention was to not functionally change cards for 2E (the exceptions mostly being rare things).

So, no.
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