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Author Topic: Disciple on Band of Misfits  (Read 4652 times)

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tufftaeh

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Disciple on Band of Misfits
« on: May 22, 2016, 04:25:55 pm »
+2

Today, I learned that MF has decided that when you play Disciple to play a Band of Misfits twice, you gain a copy of the card that BoM pretended to be, not a copy of BoM.
Is this correct, and if yes, why? (I'm a little bit afraid we're in blue dog territory there...)
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2016, 04:28:19 pm »
+7

That makes sense. When Disciple is checking what card you should gain, BoM is whatever card it is emulating, so Disciple will gain that.

This probably applies to Pilgrimage as well.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 04:39:13 pm by J Reggie »
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2016, 04:43:07 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 04:51:27 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 04:57:33 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.

I could go either way on this. The counter-argument would be that it says "a card in the supply" and "this is that card".
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 04:58:35 pm by J Reggie »
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 05:07:38 pm »
+1

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.

I could go either way on this. The counter-argument would be that it says "a card in the supply" and "this is that card".

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

I'm going for no, and that BoM means "a copy of that card", but I'm not sure.

Edit: thinking more about this, I'm pretty sure that BoM is meant to be "a copy of that card", while still retaining its identity.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 05:10:50 pm by Accatitippi »
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 05:30:10 pm »
+7

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.
You're right about Inherited Estates, but (unless my memory is misleading me) wrong about BoM.  Indeed if I recall correctly, the Adventures rules explicitly state that BoM gets the benefit of both tokens on its own pile and tokens on the pile of the card it becomes.  The important difference is that an Inherited Estate is still an Estate, but a BoM played as another card is that card until it leaves play.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 09:58:08 pm »
0

Agree with Reggie. Another question:

When BoM copies a card, does it also get the benefits from a Teacher token from the pile it copies?

I believe the answer is no; BoM isn't "from that pile". Same goes for Inherited Estates.
You're right about Inherited Estates, but (unless my memory is misleading me) wrong about BoM.  Indeed if I recall correctly, the Adventures rules explicitly state that BoM gets the benefit of both tokens on its own pile and tokens on the pile of the card it becomes.  The important difference is that an Inherited Estate is still an Estate, but a BoM played as another card is that card until it leaves play.

I am confident there is a post somewhere on the forum where Donald says this is the way it works.

(Fairly certain the ruling has not been changed after the fact also, but can't be sure.)

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 10:33:37 pm »
+2

You get the token bonuses from both the BoM pile and the pile of the card it emulates. This is because you played 2 cards, first the BoM, then the BoM-as-whatever.

This all came about in the somewhat recent rule change in the really long thread somewhere near here.

I believe this is the thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 10:35:42 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 11:10:20 am »
0

Back to topic:  ;)
I'm still not sure I understand why "Gain a copy of it." does not refer to the card that I played (a BoM) but to the card that is now in play (which BoM pretends to be).
Am I correct to assume that if I play Disciple on BoM as Feast, I gain a BoM because Feast isn't in play anymore (but a BoM in the trash) when the gain effect triggers?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 11:23:21 am »
0

Back to topic:  ;)
I'm still not sure I understand why "Gain a copy of it." does not refer to the card that I played (a BoM) but to the card that is now in play (which BoM pretends to be).
Am I correct to assume that if I play Disciple on BoM as Feast, I gain a BoM because Feast isn't in play anymore (but a BoM in the trash) when the gain effect triggers?
Yes, it should work like that.

The key thing is that copy refers to the name.
"Copy of x" = "card with the same name as x"

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 12:17:03 pm »
0

I see how this is somehow consistent with the TR-BoM ruling (saying that you cannot chose a different card for the second play). I just fail to see how that ruling is intuitive. Wouldn't it be much simpler if TR locked in the BoM, before it changes to something else? I guess there might be other problems if it was ruled that simple, so I will check the old threads to see if there is an explanation.
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tufftaeh

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2016, 06:18:43 pm »
0

Okay, I've found it. Unfortunately, it's not only a ruling (which might be reverted) but it's in the Dark Ages rulebook. :(

So, Throne Room variants (including Disciple) don't remember that they have played a BoM (which would have been the intuitive way and which would have avoided the exception for a self-trashing BoM) but they check again what that card "is" now (the selected one if it is still in play) when they play it for the second time. Disciple even checks a third time when it makes you gain a copy. The latter should go into the Wiki, I guess, as it is not obvious even if it is consistent with the former.

For reference, the Disciple card text: You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it.
So "it" doesn't mean "the action card you selected from your hand" but "the card that the action card you selected from your hand happens to be after you have played it twice".
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 06:27:08 pm by tufftaeh »
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Jeebus

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2016, 06:52:22 pm »
+1

For reference, the Disciple card text: You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it.
So "it" doesn't mean "the action card you selected from your hand" but "the card that the action card you selected from your hand happens to be after you have played it twice".

Well, that's not entirely accurate. It is the Action card you selected from your hand, it has just changed names. In Dominion choosing a card refers to a specific card. If you have two BoMs in your hand (plus any other Action cards), Disciple tells you to choose one of them. That card is the card you play; you don't just play "Band of Misfits" as a general idea. And that card, the one you played (not the one in your hand or any other BoM), is the one you will gain a copy of - "copy" meaning a card with the same name as it. And its name happens to not be "BoM" anymore.

It's really the same concept as with costs. If you play Two Highways and then Swindler, and you hit my Estate, my Estate has the cost 0. The cost printed on the card is not current anymore.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 10:56:02 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2016, 08:22:55 pm »
+1

Thanks! That was exactly the explanation I needed. The emphasis is on the action card, the specific piece of paper. Yeah, that makes sense now.

Even if it's not exactly the same concept as the cost reduced by Highway for Swindler.  8)
It's obvious that the cost of the card is checked immediately after the card has been trashed by Swindler.
It's not as obvious that Disciple doesn't remember which card it originally played but checks its name later again. After all, even Conspirator remembers that a BoM has been played, correct?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2016, 09:27:05 pm »
0

Even if it's not exactly the same concept as the cost reduced by Highway for Swindler.  8)
It's obvious that the cost of the card is checked immediately after the card has been trashed by Swindler.
It's not as obvious that Disciple doesn't remember which card it originally played but checks its name later again.
Right, it's not so obvious because of the phrase "gain a copy of it". "It" refers to the card you played, and since we're talking about a past act (playing it) it's easy to think of what the card was right when you played it. But there really is no reason why "gain a copy of <card>" should refer to the name <card> used to have. So I think it's the same concept as for costs, just presented in a different way.

After all, even Conspirator remembers that a BoM has been played, correct?
Yes. Conspirator specifically asks you how many Action cards you've played this turn. You're the one who remembers, really.
BoM tells you to gain a copy of a specified card. It's not that Disciple doesn't "remember", it's that that's the instruction. To be the other way, it would have to be something like "gain a card with the name that the chosen card had when you chose it."

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 08:21:06 am »
+3

Inheritance/Tokens: The card Estates are copying has been set aside, and Estates are looking at it, not the pile it came from, so no token abilities.

BoM/Tokens: You first play BoM, getting its token stuff, then play at as something else from the Supply (so you can't play a card from an empty pile, and you only get the currently exposed card from a split pile), and since you're looking at a pile, you get token stuff.

BoM/Conspirator: You first play BoM, which counts as playing an Action, then you play it *as* Conspirator, which is your second Action played.

BoM/Procession: You play BoM as some card from the Supply twice (same card both times).  Procession takes a quick coffee break, smokes a cigarette, and when it comes back, the card it played has been trashed.  Wait, what was it again?  Procession checks in the trash, and behold, it's a Band of Misfits.  Gain a Action.

BoM/Disciple: You play BoM as some card from the Supply twice (same card both times).  Disciple takes a quick coffee break, smokes a cigarette, and when it comes back, the card it played... is still there.  Gain a copy of whatever BoM copied.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 09:18:09 am »
0

I'm not sold on BoM/Conspirator, the BoM is played as a Conspirator, you don't play BoM first, then Conspirator.
In a sense, you never played BoM, only Conspirator.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 09:29:14 am »
0

BoM/Procession: You play BoM as some card from the Supply twice (same card both times).  Procession takes a quick coffee break, smokes a cigarette, and when it comes back, the card it played has been trashed.  Wait, what was it again?  Procession checks in the trash, and behold, it's a Band of Misfits.  Gain a Action.

Addendum: BoM/Procession/Fortress online:

step 1. Play Procession, choose BoM, choose Fortress. You get the BoM back in hand (correct), you gain a $6 card (correct), somehow the BoM is still a Fortress (bug #1, it left play, it's in your hand now).
step 2. Play another Procession, choose that BoM again (for this step you may have to uncheck "stack duplicate cards"). It's still pretending to be a Fortress, so you don't have to choose. You get it back in hand and gain a $5 card this time around (bug #2, although probably related).

If I remember correctly this used to work in the pre-Adventures age.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2016, 09:47:07 am »
+1

I'm not sold on BoM/Conspirator, the BoM is played as a Conspirator, you don't play BoM first, then Conspirator.
In a sense, you never played BoM, only Conspirator.

No, this is incorrect, though it used to be this way. Until the somewhat recent ruling change.

The thing is, BoM, like every other action card, has "on-play" instructions. You pretend that it has "when you play this" before the text. So BoM doesn't do anything while it's sitting in your hand that changes how it gets played. Instead, you play BoM just like any other action. Then when you do, you follow its instructions, which tell you to play it (again), but this time as a different card.

This has to be this way, because otherwise the text on BoM has no way of actually doing anything. Because it's not under-the-line or something, it's text is just like the text on all other action cards. The text can't have any effect on the game until that card is played.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 03:55:54 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 03:56:51 pm »
+2

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 04:20:29 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that, along with many other possibilities, was considered.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2016, 04:25:22 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2016, 06:47:30 pm »
+5

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
I tried having it gain the card. It just empties piles so fast. Multiple versions tried this though.

I tried having it gain a card, then return that card to the supply. People just endlessly forgot to return the card. Maybe something could have reminded them well enough; I did not have the technology at the time.

I tried having it play a card without moving it. For all of your Band of Misfits solutions, consider duration cards and Feast. Here I was not satisfied with how the weird cases resolved.

I tried a choose one - Band of Misfits where the cards costing less than it are always Woodcutter, Throne Room, Peddler. It's not much like Band of Misfits. But you know. It's a thing you can try and I tried it. This was known as the Morphling solution, after the origin story behind that Magic card (they wanted to reprint Clone but were told the rules were too complex).

And I tried just not having Band of Misfits. That didn't work either. I gave it a good long try though.

In the end there it is. As the saying goes, we hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2016, 06:57:39 pm »
0

Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
I tried having it gain the card. It just empties piles so fast. Multiple versions tried this though.

I tried having it gain a card, then return that card to the supply. People just endlessly forgot to return the card. Maybe something could have reminded them well enough; I did not have the technology at the time.

I tried having it play a card without moving it. For all of your Band of Misfits solutions, consider duration cards and Feast. Here I was not satisfied with how the weird cases resolved.

I tried a choose one - Band of Misfits where the cards costing less than it are always Woodcutter, Throne Room, Peddler. It's not much like Band of Misfits. But you know. It's a thing you can try and I tried it. This was known as the Morphling solution, after the origin story behind that Magic card (they wanted to reprint Clone but were told the rules were too complex).

And I tried just not having Band of Misfits. That didn't work either. I gave it a good long try though.

In the end there it is. As the saying goes, we hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion.

If it were only online, would you prefer the gain the card, play it, return to supply version?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2016, 06:59:24 pm »
0

That BoM as Throne Room, Woodcutter, or Peddler sounds awesome.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2016, 07:15:06 pm »
+1

If it were only online, would you prefer the gain the card, play it, return to supply version?
If it's only online you have a lot of options; I would need to try them to know what I liked the most. You could just leave it as is; the software handles the tricky cases. You could have it gain a card without lowering the pile.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2018, 01:37:29 am »
0

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2018, 02:39:19 am »
+1

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

Disciple knows what BoM is, not where it is.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2018, 08:30:55 am »
0

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?

The second Disciple play could indeed be Raze - it's the same situation as if BoM trashes itself the first play. The second time a Throne variant checks the card, the card is a Band of Misfits, it is not whatever card it was copying before (as it is only the copy until it leaves play, no matter how or when).
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Jeebus

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2018, 08:37:56 am »
0

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?

The second Disciple play could indeed be Raze - it's the same situation as if BoM trashes itself the first play. The second time a Throne variant checks the card, the card is a Band of Misfits, it is not whatever card it was copying before (as it is only the copy until it leaves play, no matter how or when).

Yeah, but it couldn't trash itself, and I think that was the point. As Sudgy implied, Lose Track is only about moving cards. The BoM-Raze couldn't trash itself because it can only trash (move) itself from the expected location, the play area. But it can still be played (so it gives you +1 action and lets you trash a card etc) - a card can be played no matter where it is. You fail to put it into play, because of Lose Track, but you still follow the instructions. It's just, that's the rules.

GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2018, 10:41:02 am »
+2

Throne rooms seem to be weirdly immune to losing track.  So I can use Disciple to play BoM as Island twice, and then I gain a BoM because it knows that the card on my Island mat is currently a BoM.

But could the second BoM play itself as a Raze and trash itself?  Probably not...  Disciple knows where BoM is because throne variants are Paranormal Detectives like that, but BoM doesn't know it's on your Island mat in order to trash itself, does it?  You just "choose" to trash "this" and then lolol can't do anything?  Or does "trash this" innately know where itself is?  You aren't allowed to trash things from the trash, but can it trash itself from the Island mat?

The second Disciple play could indeed be Raze - it's the same situation as if BoM trashes itself the first play. The second time a Throne variant checks the card, the card is a Band of Misfits, it is not whatever card it was copying before (as it is only the copy until it leaves play, no matter how or when).

Yeah, but it couldn't trash itself, and I think that was the point. As Sudgy implied, Lose Track is only about moving cards. The BoM-Raze couldn't trash itself because it can only trash (move) itself from the expected location, the play area. But it can still be played (so it gives you +1 action and lets you trash a card etc) - a card can be played no matter where it is. You fail to put it into play, because of Lose Track, but you still follow the instructions. It's just, that's the rules.

Yes, a common misconception seems to be that Lose Track prevents you from doing things with cards such as playing them or finding out information about them (like cost). But Lose Track has never meant that. Lose Track only ever prevents moving a card. It can't ever prevent playing a card or finding out the cost or name of a card. (Though due to preventing the moving; it can cause you to not put a card in play when you play the card).
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2018, 11:53:37 am »
0

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

Have we resolved this one? It doesn't seem outlandish to me.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2018, 12:07:37 pm »
0

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

Have we resolved this one? It doesn't seem outlandish to me.

Based on everything we know, it clearly means "play this as a copy". That's how I've always interpreted it. And otherwise we would have a situation where one card is in two different places at once! In the given example, you would have to trash both the BoM and the actual top Gladiator, thereby trashing two cards.

GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2018, 12:36:58 pm »
+1

I see the point. If you interpret it that way, then you could have some really weird situations.
Play BoM as Gladiator, reveal unique card, trash the top Gladiator of the pile. But wait, BoM is that card! Do I trash BoM?

Have we resolved this one? It doesn't seem outlandish to me.

Based on everything we know, it clearly means "play this as a copy". That's how I've always interpreted it. And otherwise we would have a situation where one card is in two different places at once! In the given example, you would have to trash both the BoM and the actual top Gladiator, thereby trashing two cards.

Yeah I missed this one when it was asked previously. I'm quite sure that "this is that card" means "this is a copy of that card". It's quite clear that BoM is not literally another specific card; no amount of card text or rules could make it so. At best it can make it act exactly like that card in every way.

*Edit* To phrase it better, I think that if you play BoM as Smithy, then  "this is that card" means "this is a Smithy". If you play it as Gladiator, then "this is that card" means "this is a Gladiator". It does not mean "this is the specific Gladiator that is on top of the Gladiator pile".
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 12:39:57 pm by GendoIkari »
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2018, 01:20:40 pm »
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Yeah, but it couldn't trash itself, and I think that was the point. As Sudgy implied, Lose Track is only about moving cards. The BoM-Raze couldn't trash itself because it can only trash (move) itself from the expected location, the play area. But it can still be played (so it gives you +1 action and lets you trash a card etc) - a card can be played no matter where it is. You fail to put it into play, because of Lose Track, but you still follow the instructions. It's just, that's the rules.

I'm still unsure.

Throne-Raze can't trash itself a second time, because (a) you can't trash your trash, (b) it thinks it's in play but it isn't (c) both reasons would apply?  IIRC, you can still choose to trash itself, but it fails and you only get the +1 Action.

So Throne BoM-Island BoM-Raze (a) can trash itself because it's not in the trash, or (b) can't trash itself because it's expecting itself to be in play.

Is it implied in the wording of an Action that it expects itself to be in play, because that's where cards that are played usually are?  I'm sort of thinking that (b) is how it works, but... really, you could get a PhD in Lose Track Rule.  Maybe.
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2018, 01:23:40 pm »
0

Necromancer-Raze is case (a), does it work?
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2018, 03:06:42 pm »
+1

Tracking is just super weird.  Like, we can see your Fitbit, but we don't have permission to access your location.  Apparently.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2018, 03:46:42 pm »
0

Tracking is just super weird.  Like, we can see your Fitbit, but we don't have permission to access your location.  Apparently.

Exactly. There are really two kinds of tracking going on simultaneously. Since a card's properties can depend on its location, you have to unerringly (and sometimes impossibly) track its location in order to be able to know what it looks like at the instant some instructions need that information. But then there's also the more fragile tracking referred to by "lose track," which you have to note has been broken in certain situations to know not to follow instructions that tell you to move the card. So, sometimes, your left hand has to pretend it doesn't know where a card is even though your right hand is required to know exactly where it is.
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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2018, 07:56:17 pm »
0

I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.

To reply to Minotaur, itís (c).

GendoIkari

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2018, 02:03:00 pm »
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I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.


It's not what the rule says, but it is why the rules exists. Donald has said that the Lose Track rule exists because it's possible to literally Lose Track of a card. Inn-Watchtower is a good example. You gain an Inn with Watchtower in hand; having at least 1 other Inn in your draw pile already. You can choose the order to resolve the on-gain effects; you choose to resolve Inn first; shuffling Inn into your draw pile. Now you choose to resolve Watchtower to trash that Inn. Lose Track needs to exist as a rule here, because it's literally impossible to ever find that Inn to trash it; there's no way of knowing when you've found it even if you were allowed to look through your draw pile.

So we are allowed to know where the Inn is, at least generally. We know it's in your draw pile. And that's enough information to tell us things like how much it costs. We just don't know specifically enough where it is to do something like moving it; that would require knowing its exact position within the draw pile. Luckily, no card will ever exist that says "this costs less if it is the third card from the top of your draw pile."

So for the fit-bit analogy, the cards are wearing a fit-bit that just doesn't do very specific locations; we can only know what city the person is in; not exactly their GPS coordinates.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 02:06:56 pm by GendoIkari »
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Minotaur

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2018, 03:00:10 pm »
+1

I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.


It's not what the rule says, but it is why the rules exists. Donald has said that the Lose Track rule exists because it's possible to literally Lose Track of a card. Inn-Watchtower is a good example. You gain an Inn with Watchtower in hand; having at least 1 other Inn in your draw pile already. You can choose the order to resolve the on-gain effects; you choose to resolve Inn first; shuffling Inn into your draw pile. Now you choose to resolve Watchtower to trash that Inn. Lose Track needs to exist as a rule here, because it's literally impossible to ever find that Inn to trash it; there's no way of knowing when you've found it even if you were allowed to look through your draw pile.

So we are allowed to know where the Inn is, at least generally. We know it's in your draw pile. And that's enough information to tell us things like how much it costs. We just don't know specifically enough where it is to do something like moving it; that would require knowing its exact position within the draw pile. Luckily, no card will ever exist that says "this costs less if it is the third card from the top of your draw pile."

So for the fit-bit analogy, the cards are wearing a fit-bit that just doesn't do very specific locations; we can only know what city the person is in; not exactly their GPS coordinates.

It seems like the entire reason you even have a Fitbit is so that Throne Room will work more often.  It's possible to imagine other rules like, "you can't play it again if it isn't where you left it" or "put the thing in play, freeze a picture of it, and play a copy of that picture twice, treating the actual card as 'this card' for the purpose of moving stuff as long as it's where we left it".  Maybe in the latter case, it would know only that it was an Otter from the Otter pile, so it could still lower its own cost, if that's what Otters do.

The first is straightforward, but man, Throne Room is a downer now.  The latter is sort of weird, but is it weirder than canon?  idk, the difference doesn't matter that often, but when it does, my head hurts.
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Jeebus

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2018, 07:03:31 pm »
0

I think some of the misunderstandings about Lose Track stems from this - the idea that the reason you lose track is that you donít know where the card is. But thatís not what the rule says. It just says you canít move it if it was moved by something else.


It's not what the rule says, but it is why the rules exists. Donald has said that the Lose Track rule exists because it's possible to literally Lose Track of a card. Inn-Watchtower is a good example.

He has said that the rule is needed because you could literally lose track. I'm not sure if that's the only reason. If it were, why not just have a rule that a card is lost track of if you don't know its exact location? It seems that the rule also exists to try to avoid situations where cards could move in unexpected or conflicting ways, for instance that Mining Village jumps out of the trash. There is another recent thread about how Lose Track could have been different, and it's about these situations, not just dealing with the rare situation where you literally lost track.

greybirdofprey

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2018, 07:45:35 am »
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Shouldn't BoM just say "Choose a card from the supply costing less than this. Play that card", then? That seems more intuitive.

Playing that card would put it into play, effectively making it your card (you'd discard it at end of turn). So you'd have to at minimum say, "Play that card without putting it into play".

Or play that card, then return it to Supply.  Would have cases where it's not the same (Trashing it, say).
I tried having it gain the card. It just empties piles so fast. Multiple versions tried this though.

I tried having it gain a card, then return that card to the supply. People just endlessly forgot to return the card. Maybe something could have reminded them well enough; I did not have the technology at the time.

I tried having it play a card without moving it. For all of your Band of Misfits solutions, consider duration cards and Feast. Here I was not satisfied with how the weird cases resolved.

I tried a choose one - Band of Misfits where the cards costing less than it are always Woodcutter, Throne Room, Peddler. It's not much like Band of Misfits. But you know. It's a thing you can try and I tried it. This was known as the Morphling solution, after the origin story behind that Magic card (they wanted to reprint Clone but were told the rules were too complex).

And I tried just not having Band of Misfits. That didn't work either. I gave it a good long try though.

In the end there it is. As the saying goes, we hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion.

Have you tried making it usable with reserve cards for the second edition?
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Donald X.

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Re: Disciple on Band of Misfits
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2018, 04:29:29 pm »
0

Have you tried making it usable with reserve cards for the second edition?
Reserve cards didn't exist back when, and the intention was to not functionally change cards for 2E (the exceptions mostly being rare things).

So, no.
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