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Author Topic: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?  (Read 5562 times)

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J Reggie

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Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« on: May 17, 2016, 03:20:04 pm »
+1

I was recently playing a game online with Trader and Transmogrify, and Transmogrifying something into a Trader allowed me to reveal that Trader to gain a Silver instead. Is this legal?

Donald X.

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 03:52:49 pm »
+5

I was recently playing a game online with Trader and Transmogrify, and Transmogrifying something into a Trader allowed me to reveal that Trader to gain a Silver instead. Is this legal?
No; you can't reveal Trader to gain Silver "instead" of something if you've already gained that something.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 04:23:22 pm »
+5

So it just now occurred to me that you should be able to Transmogrify something into a Watchtower, and then reveal that Watchtower to respond to the gaining of itself?
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Donald X.

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 04:46:27 pm »
+3

So it just now occurred to me that you should be able to Transmogrify something into a Watchtower, and then reveal that Watchtower to respond to the gaining of itself?
Yes.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 04:59:18 pm »
0

So it just now occurred to me that you should be able to Transmogrify something into a Watchtower, and then reveal that Watchtower to respond to the gaining of itself?
Yes.

So can the Watchtower top-deck or trash itself?

I would have thought that this wasn't allowed.  Transmogrify says:

Quote
At the start of your turn, you may call this, to trash a card from your hand, gain a card costing up to $1 more than it, and put that card into your hand.

I would interpret this as four steps:

1. Call Transmogrify.
2. Trash a card from your hand.
3. Gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card.
4. Put the gained card [from your discard] into your hand.

You can't reveal the new Watchtower at step 3 since it isn't in your hand at that point.  But once you move on to step 4, you've passed the point where you could reveal Watchtower.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 05:13:32 pm »
0

But the no-visiting rule says steps 3 and 4 are the same step correct?

LastFootnote

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 05:16:13 pm »
+2

But the no-visiting rule says steps 3 and 4 are the same step correct?

The wording is sort of ambiguous on Transmogrify, but the intent is that the card goes straight to your hand, not that it visits the discard pile (or wherever).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 05:30:21 pm »
0

But the no-visiting rule says steps 3 and 4 are the same step correct?

The wording is sort of ambiguous on Transmogrify, but the intent is that the card goes straight to your hand, not that it visits the discard pile (or wherever).

As far as we know, Summon is the only card that uses different wording to cause "no visiting" to not happen, right?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 05:55:42 pm »
+1

But the no-visiting rule says steps 3 and 4 are the same step correct?

The wording is sort of ambiguous on Transmogrify, but the intent is that the card goes straight to your hand, not that it visits the discard pile (or wherever).

As far as we know, Summon is the only card that uses different wording to cause "no visiting" to not happen, right?

Maybe? I'm not going to look at every card right now. Certainly visiting does sometimes happen; the Treasures trashed by Noble Brigand visit the trash, for instance.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 07:05:48 pm »
0

But the no-visiting rule says steps 3 and 4 are the same step correct?

The wording is sort of ambiguous on Transmogrify, but the intent is that the card goes straight to your hand, not that it visits the discard pile (or wherever).

So it can indeed top-deck itself?  Alright then.
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Davio

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2016, 06:34:46 am »
0

But the no-visiting rule says steps 3 and 4 are the same step correct?
This is the rule which says these cards never actually go to your discard, right?

Watchtower says "when you gain a card" which happens right when you gain something, not after you gained it, that would be my interpretation.
So I would think you can't reveal a Watchtower you just gained to having gained it; at that point the "when you gain" is already in the past.

But Donald seems to think otherwise.
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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2016, 07:14:17 am »
+2

But Donald seems to think otherwise.
Hint: Donald knows. :)


(almost) everything in Dominion goes like this:

1.   when-would-X
2.   X
3.   when-X

In 1 & 3, things can trigger because of X. Because Trader says "when would", it can't trigger on it's own gain with Transmogrify (1 comes before 2). Because watchtower says "when", it can trigger on its own gain with Transmogrify (3 comes after 2).
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Davio

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 08:25:16 am »
0

So "when you gain" actually means "after you've gained"?
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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 09:04:37 am »
+2

So "when you gain" actually means "after you've gained"?

Simple version: yes

Longer version: The gaining is sort of the whole process. Resolving when-would-gains, moving the card (probably from the supply to your discard pile), resolving when-gains.
If you think of the moving-the-card as the entire gain, it gets confusing. It's probably also confusing that MF shows the animation of the card moving at the wrong time.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 10:13:22 am »
+3

So "when you gain" actually means "after you've gained"?

This is how it works in pretty much any game, as well as the English language in general. If your wife calls you at work and says "when you get home, could you take out the trash?" then obviously she wants you to first get home, then take out the trash after you get home. The closest thing I can think of to what you were thinking is if you said "while you are gaining...." instead of "when you gain".
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Davio

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 10:13:49 am »
+1

So.. it's just like acquiring something from an online shop.

They have to package it, ship it, and you have to unpack it to finally gain it.

When-would-gain happens during packaging (oh no this Justin Bieber CD isn't right, it should be a Beyoncé CD, so let's put that inside the package)
Moving the card is shipping (it can get shipped to your house or your business address; if you don't specify an alternate address it will just be your home address)
When-gain happens during unpacking (hey look I found a Justin Bieber CD, let's trash it!)

Now, let's apply this metaphor:

You're gaining a Watchtower with Transmog, it gets shipped to your hand.
You unpack it, by simple looking at it and go "hey, a Watchtower!"
Now you can apply Watchtower's effect, since well, it's in your hand, right?
Did Watchtower lose track of itself? Well, it's in your hand as it should be, so I don't think so
Resolve Watchtower as normal.


Now, if you do this:
Have Royal Seal in play (due to BM)
Use Transmog to gain a Smithy
Apply Royal Seal to put it on top of your deck
--> At this point, has a Watchtower in your hand lost track of Smithy?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 10:19:11 am by Davio »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 12:04:32 pm »
0


Now, if you do this:
Have Royal Seal in play (due to BM)
Use Transmog to gain a Smithy
Apply Royal Seal to put it on top of your deck
--> At this point, has a Watchtower in your hand lost track of Smithy?

Of course BM isn't enough, you need a Princed BM. And the answer depends completely on if Royal Seal includes "no visiting" or not. I can't remember the answer to that. It seems to use the exact same wording as Travelling Fair. I feel like No Visiting does NOT apply in those cases, because they're worded as a "when gain" ability, not like Armory or Torturer which say "gain a card, putting it...". Then again, Nomad Camp is worded like a "when gain" ability, but is NOT a "when gain" ability by rule.
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Jeebus

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2016, 11:38:13 am »
+1

This is how it works in pretty much any game, as well as the English language in general. If your wife calls you at work and says "when you get home, could you take out the trash?" then obviously she wants you to first get home, then take out the trash after you get home. The closest thing I can think of to what you were thinking is if you said "while you are gaining...." instead of "when you gain".

It definitely works like this in Dominion, and I think you're right that it does in most games, but English is another matter. "When" can mean both before, during and after, depending on the context. Hence many people's confusion.

"When you take out the trash, remember the dead body." Of course it doesn't help remembering the dead body when you've already taken out the trash.

"When I go to the mall, I always buy 40 cans of spam." This is during the trip to the mall, not before or after.

Jeebus

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2016, 11:42:18 am »
0

And the answer depends completely on if Royal Seal includes "no visiting" or not. I can't remember the answer to that. It seems to use the exact same wording as Travelling Fair.
Watchtower, Royal Seal and Travelling Fair are the only three when-gain abilities that move the card. So they move it after it's been gained. In addition Summon moves the card after it gains it. I don't think there are others.

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2016, 01:08:52 pm »
+1

"When I go to the mall, I always buy 40 cans of spam." This is during the trip to the mall, not before or after.

...Strictly speaking, it's after the trip to the mall, and before the trip from the mall.
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Jeebus

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2016, 01:37:39 pm »
0

"When I go to the mall, I always buy 40 cans of spam." This is during the trip to the mall, not before or after.

...Strictly speaking, it's after the trip to the mall, and before the trip from the mall.
That's not how English works. But I'm not sure if you're trolling.

AJD

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2016, 01:44:42 pm »
0

"When I go to the mall, I always buy 40 cans of spam." This is during the trip to the mall, not before or after.

...Strictly speaking, it's after the trip to the mall, and before the trip from the mall.
That's not how English works. But I'm not sure if you're trolling.

I'm only semi-trolling, but I'm not sure you're right. If you're currently at the mall, and someone texts you and asks what you're doing, would it be truthful for you to say "I'm going to the mall"? I'm not sure it would be. (I'm not sure it wouldn't be, either.)
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Jeebus

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2016, 02:03:46 pm »
+1

I'm only semi-trolling, but I'm not sure you're right. If you're currently at the mall, and someone texts you and asks what you're doing, would it be truthful for you to say "I'm going to the mall"? I'm not sure it would be. (I'm not sure it wouldn't be, either.)
Yeah, I think that would probably be an odd way of putting it. The point is that normal language depends both on context and subtle differences in phrasing and is not consistent like math.

In my sentence, "when I go to the mall" covers the whole trip.
"I went to the mall yesterday." This doesn't (usually) mean you never came back.
"When I go to the mall, I come home at noon." This doesn't (necessarily) mean you live in the mall.

"When I go from my house to the mall" would cover just the trip going there.
"When I go from my house to the mall, I buy 40 cans of spam." This means I buy them on my way to the mall. Here too "when" means during, not before or after.

GendoIkari

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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2016, 02:17:45 pm »
+1

"When I go to the mall, I always buy 40 cans of spam." This is during the trip to the mall, not before or after.

...Strictly speaking, it's after the trip to the mall, and before the trip from the mall.
That's not how English works. But I'm not sure if you're trolling.

This distinction isn't a question of the word "when", but a question of defining "trip to the mall". If you define "trip to the mall" as relocating yourself from your current position to the mall, then you remember the spam after your trip to the mall. If you define "trip to the mall" as an outing that involves being at the mall at some point during that outing, then you remember the spam during the trip to the mall.

And as long as we're on the subject...


If you get an email about reconstituted meat, salt and water, don't open it. It's spam.
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Re: Can I reveal Trader when I gain it?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2016, 02:18:22 pm »
0

I'm only semi-trolling, but I'm not sure you're right. If you're currently at the mall, and someone texts you and asks what you're doing, would it be truthful for you to say "I'm going to the mall"? I'm not sure it would be. (I'm not sure it wouldn't be, either.)
Yeah, I think that would probably be an odd way of putting it. The point is that normal language depends both on context and subtle differences in phrasing and is not consistent like math.

In my sentence, "when I go to the mall" covers the whole trip.
"I went to the mall yesterday." This doesn't (usually) mean you never came back.
"When I go to the mall, I come home at noon." This doesn't (necessarily) mean you live in the mall.

"When I go from my house to the mall" would cover just the trip going there.
"When I go from my house to the mall, I buy 40 cans of spam." This means I buy them on my way to the mall. Here too "when" means during, not before or after.

I think it's necessary to keep in mind the difference between the semantic and pragmatic meanings of a sentence. The semantics of a sentence is what the sentence as a linguistic unit literally means; the pragmatic meaning is the information the speaker intends to communicate by using it. (A simple example: "Can you shut the door for me?" The semantic meaning of that sentence is a yes/no question about capability; the pragmatic meaning is a request to take an action.)

Obviously "I went to the mall yesterday" doesn't mean you never came back. But it doesn't mean you did come back either—the semantic denotation of the sentence contains no information about whether or not you came back. But it does pragmatically implicate that you came back—on the basis of the fact that, if you never came back, that would be important and relevant information and it would be inappropriate to leave it out, so the listener is licensed to infer that it's not the case.
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