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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles  (Read 28626 times)

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LastFootnote

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Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« on: May 13, 2016, 02:21:19 pm »
+48

Looking at the other previews this week, you may have gathered that Empiresí theme is ďdifferent paths to victoryĒ. Youíve got Landmarks that reward different strategies, and more uses for VP tokens than ever. But you may have wondered, where are the actual Victory cards? Today Iím previewing eight, though theyíre all in the same pile.



Like a split pile, the Castles are sorted by cost, with the cheaper ones on top. In a 2-player game, you use one of each unique Castle card. In a game with more players, there are duplicates of four of them (Humble, Small, Opulent, Kingís). Iíll say a quick word about each one.

Humble Castle: Hey, itís a Victory card that counts other cards from its own pile! Itís rough to buy an early Copper for $3, but the potential reward in VP is pretty hefty. As Donald says, buying a Humble Castle is throwing down the gauntlet; declaring your intention to pursue Castles this game.

Crumbling Castle: Despite the big ď1VPĒ on the top of this card, itís always worth 2 VP for you, even if you trash it later! Plus you get a Silver (or two) to help mitigate Crumbling Castleís effect on your deck.

Small Castle: Trash a card to gain another card from its pile; thereís a propostion thatís not usually attractive. But with Small Castle, it means that you can potentially pick up a very powerul Castle later in the game for a fraction of the price.

Haunted Castle: Ghost Shipís attack sure is harsh. Itís a good thing that Haunted Castleís only happens once per game. Plus you get a free Gold when you gain it!

Opulent Castle: Man, you sure have been slowing down your deck, buying all these Victory cards so early in the game. If only you had some way to convert them into buying power. Opulent Castle provides a generous +$2 per Victory card you discard to it.

Sprawling Castle: Now weíre getting to the end-game part of the stack, when you want cards that give you points. At $8 for 7 VP spread over two (or four) cards, Sprawling Castle isnít particularly appealing to a Province player. But for a player whoís collecting Castles, it can be worth a lot more.

Grand Castle: While Silk Road gives you VP for each Victory card in your deck, Grand Castle gives you VP for each Victory card in your hand or play area when you gain it. Maybe that Sprawling Castle was a good investment after all.

Kingís Castle: Finally we get to the capstone, which makes accumulating those smaller Castles worthwhile. Itís worth a whopping 2 VP per Castle you have (including itself, of course).

Thatís it for the previews! I hope you enjoyed them.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2016, 02:22:41 pm »
+22

These are absurd, so let's be sure to start off by discussing the art at length.
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DLloyd09

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2016, 02:27:24 pm »
+3

Un. Believable.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2016, 02:27:37 pm »
+1

These are going to take a long time to figure out. What kind of strategy do they go with? Do you want to get them early? When can you ignore them? This is like what Knights should have been.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2016, 02:28:24 pm »
+3

Appropriate:

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 02:29:56 pm »
0

My first note is that the Haunted Castle is not an Attack type card so it cannot be lighthoused or moated
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dmet

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 02:31:37 pm »
+24

This is like the 17th most interesting thing about this pile, but I love the continued attack theme of ghosts scaring your opponent's cards back to the top of their deck.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 02:32:51 pm »
+2

Are there other castles for a 3 player game?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 02:34:10 pm »
0

I wonder what kind of interaction that necessitated "during your turn" on Haunted Castle. Swindler doesn't really seem a like big deal.

Edit: I see now. The player playing Swindler (or Saboteur or Ambassador and maybe some others?) could get attacked mid-attack, which is super weird rules-wise. Probably best to stop that.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 02:37:18 pm by wachsmuth »
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bedlam

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 02:34:42 pm »
+3

In a 2-player game, you use one of each unique Castle card. In a game with more players, there are duplicates of four of them (Humble, Small, Opulent, Kingís).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 02:35:33 pm »
+2

Are there other castles for a 3 player game?

The answer is hidden in the first paragraph!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 02:36:40 pm »
+9

If you're going to get one person to do the art for a whole bunch of castles, I'd say they picked the right guy.  Great job Julian
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 02:37:55 pm »
0

Is it necessary to restrict Haunted Castle to "during your turn"?  I can't think of many ways to gain it other than during your turn.  An opponent's Amb-Haunted Castle, I guess, but that seems like a poor move anyway.  I guess it can be safe to Swindle somebody's Gold into Haunted Castle.  Is there some broken interaction I'm missing?  Future-proofing?

Grand Castle could have just said "and".

I am nitpicking the text because I don't know what to say about this pile.  Oh boy.
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A Ladder

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 02:39:17 pm »
0

Oh man, Alt VP cards are my favorite kingdom cards to play with...and now there are CASTLES!!! I am so pumped! This clinches the expansion for me. I am stoked.

Cannot wait to add Castles to my Alt VP custom kingdoms.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 02:40:31 pm »
+2

Are there other castles for a 3 player game?

It says in the OP that in a 3 or 4 player game, there are two Humble, Small, Opulent, and King's Castles.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 02:41:39 pm »
0

Is it necessary to restrict Haunted Castle to "during your turn"?  I can't think of many ways to gain it other than during your turn.  An opponent's Amb-Haunted Castle, I guess, but that seems like a poor move anyway.  I guess it can be safe to Swindle somebody's Gold into Haunted Castle.  Is there some broken interaction I'm missing?  Future-proofing?

Saboteur could do it, right? Performing an attack on another player's turn is weird.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2016, 02:43:22 pm »
+1

My first note is that the Haunted Castle is not an Attack type card so it cannot be lighthoused or moated

Lighthouse and Moat react to an attack card being played.  This is an on-gain effect on card that isn't even an Action.

I wonder what kind of interaction that necessitated "during your turn" on Haunted Castle. Swindler doesn't really seem a like big deal.

Edit: I see now. The player playing Swindler (or Saboteur or Ambassador and maybe some others?) could get attacked mid-attack, which is super weird rules-wise. Probably best to stop that.

I don't see any particularly weird or confusing interactions, at least among those three.  It's not technically an attack, and having to top-deck in the middle of resolving Swindler/Saboteur/Ambassador still seems simple to work out.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 02:43:50 pm »
+2

Does the Castle randomizer reflect the cost of Humble Castle (the split pile preview said the randomizer "usually" follows the top card), making all of these suitable as Banes?
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yuma

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2016, 02:44:45 pm »
+3

I see....

Highgarden (Grand Castle), The Red Keep (Sprawling Castle), The Eyrie (Crumbling Castle), Harrenhal (Haunted Castle), Casterly Rock (King's Castle {Sprawling Castle and King's Castle should be renamed}) and Moat Cailin (Small Castle)

But where is Winterfell!?!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 02:47:58 pm by yuma »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2016, 02:45:04 pm »
+4

Does the Castle randomizer reflect the cost of Humble Castle (the split pile preview said the randomizer "usually" follows the top card), making all of these suitable as Banes?

Yep!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2016, 02:46:05 pm »
+1

Bridge/highway
Inheritance one of the 2 action castles.
Buy estates
GG
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2016, 02:46:50 pm »
+8

Wow, this actually comboes with Scout.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 02:48:42 pm »
+3

Bridge/highway
Inheritance one of the 2 action castles.
Buy estates
GG

That would be sweet, but you can only use Inheritance on a non-Victory Action card.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2016, 02:49:31 pm »
+1

If you don't trash the Small Castle to quickly get a bigger castle, there are 45 points to be had from Castles (including the Duchy/Estates from Sprawling Castle, and not including the bonus points from Grand Castle, of which there are probably at least a couple).  If there's say 3 points you gained from Grand Castle, 8 Castles could be worth 48 Points, the same as 8 Provinces.

At a quick glance, the best way to disrupt a Castle player might be to pick up the Small Castle.  It's one less Castle for them, and if you can deal with dragging it around the whole game, you can use it to quickly steal the King's Castle at the end.  If you don't get the King's Castle, there's almost no point in going for Castles at all.  Sure, the King's Castle is worth only 2 points for you, but you've just stolen 14 points from them (assuming they took the other 6 castles). 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2016, 02:50:44 pm »
+1

These don't look very Roman!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2016, 02:50:59 pm »
+3

My favorite alt. vp card by far, and probably my favorite card from Empires.
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math

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 02:53:22 pm »
0

There are lots of things that could mess up this strategy.  The biggest one is failing to get the King's Castle.  Your opponent will buy that even if they haven't bought a single Castle so far; it's +2 VP for them and -15 for you, which is more than a Province swing.  If they snagged one of the smaller Castles, it's even more.  If both players contest these, the one who gets the King's Castle will probably win.

This is an amazing pile.  I'm guessing it will take a while to learn how to play this properly.  You really want an engine so you can hit $10, but those Silvers and Gold will hurt a lot, not to mention the Victory cards themselves.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 02:54:40 pm »
+17

Just gonna launch a whole Crumbling Castle from my Catapult, no big deal.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2016, 02:55:51 pm »
+2

Just gonna launch a whole Crumbling Castle from my Catapult, no big deal.

And it gives you more Catapult fodder when you do!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2016, 02:56:54 pm »
+1

Achievement idea!

Renovator: Remodel a Humble Castle all the way up to a King's Castle (without remodeling a Castle card into a non-Castle card or vice versa).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2016, 03:04:13 pm »
0

I see....

Highgarden (Grand Castle), The Red Keep (Sprawling Castle), The Eyrie (Crumbling Castle), Harrenhal (Haunted Castle), Casterly Rock (King's Castle {Sprawling Castle and King's Castle should be renamed}) and Moat Cailin (Small Castle)

But where is Winterfell!?!

Crumbling Castle is clearly Nightwatch or Castle Black.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2016, 03:09:33 pm »
+1

Ok, here's estimated breakdown using the unaccounted for remaining card art.

The breakdown should be as follows:

300 Cards:
  • 24 Kingdom card piles of 10 cards each, except for castles (12 cards), 5 are the 5/5 split piles
  • 21 Landmarks
  • 13 Events
  • 0 blank cards

Here's the art breakdown for all 76 pieces of card artwork:
  • 24 pieces of art in the kingdom piles (randomizer art).
  • 21 pieces of landmark card art
  • 13 on the events
  • 8 additional for the castles (non-randomizers)
  • 24 + 21 + 13 + 8 = 66 art, leaving 10 for the split piles (which take 2 additional each)
  • 24 + 21 + 13 + 8 + 10 = 76 art

Assuming I'm correct, that's
  • 16 unrevealed Landmarks
  • 10 unrevealed Events
  • 2 unrevealed Split piles (with the 2 cards in each)
  • 8 unrevealed regular Kingdom cards (1 card per pile)
  • 38 total unrevealed cards/landmarks/events (we've seen 32 so far)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2016, 03:11:43 pm »
0

Wow, these are crazy. It's very difficult to know how to play these at a glance, with so many different things going on. On the other hand they're certainly not ignorable - they offer so much in terms of VP.

At a guess, I can see Opulent Castle being very important. If you have an engine that can draw a good chunk of your Castles/starting Estates, Opulent Castle will start giving +$6 or more, letting you easily buy the last three cards in the pile. There are a couple of ready-made ways to snipe the Opulent from your opponent - you can Haunted Castle them and buy it after their bad turn; or you can Small Castle into it.

If you are contested for Castles, I see Humble and Kings losting their lustre, especially with the two trashing Castles. I think the focus might shift towards building an engine then incorporating Opulent/Sprawling/Grand Castles for lots of money and VPs.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2016, 03:14:43 pm »
+1

Hooray for keeping up the 'Haunted' theme.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2016, 03:22:45 pm »
+1

I see....

Highgarden (Grand Castle), The Red Keep (Sprawling Castle), The Eyrie (Crumbling Castle), Harrenhal (Haunted Castle), Casterly Rock (King's Castle {Sprawling Castle and King's Castle should be renamed}) and Moat Cailin (Small Castle)

But where is Winterfell!?!

The Haunted Castle is Minas Morgul and the Opulent Castle is Cinderella Castle
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2016, 03:30:56 pm »
+1

Well, this is one way to do the fabled Victory Card that counts itself. Cool! It's going to be hard to wrap your head around this. I wonder how often you want to keep them all.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2016, 03:32:34 pm »
+7

Castles are a very nice VP source for Menagerie decks.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2016, 03:37:24 pm »
+4

It's not until now that I noticed the running theme of dead/haunted things making you put cards onto your deck: Ghost Ship, Haunted Woods, now Haunted Castle. Bureaucrat doesn't quite fit...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2016, 03:38:23 pm »
0

Is it necessary to restrict Haunted Castle to "during your turn"?  I can't think of many ways to gain it other than during your turn.  An opponent's Amb-Haunted Castle, I guess, but that seems like a poor move anyway.  I guess it can be safe to Swindle somebody's Gold into Haunted Castle.  Is there some broken interaction I'm missing?  Future-proofing?

Grand Castle could have just said "and".

I am nitpicking the text because I don't know what to say about this pile.  Oh boy.

Saboteur.  Though he himself is not an issue, it makes a little sense to future proof for things like it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2016, 03:38:30 pm »
+18

It's not until now that I noticed the running theme of dead/haunted things making you put cards onto your deck: Ghost Ship, Haunted Woods, now Haunted Castle. Bureaucrat doesn't quite fit...

They're dead inside.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2016, 03:39:21 pm »
0

Haunted Castle seems kind of like too much of a no-brainer to buy, more so than all the others.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2016, 03:42:35 pm »
0

Buying all 8 Castles (2 player game) is worth 41 points, NOT counting the Duchy and the 1 vp for on-gain bonuses, or the variable vp for the other on-gain bonus. So just 1 point shy of all 8 Provinces, and way less total cost ($52 instead of $64, plus you only need to hit $8+ 3 times).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2016, 03:44:40 pm »
0

Haunted Castle seems kind of like too much of a no-brainer to buy, more so than all the others.

Well duh, ghosts don't have brains so it's just fitting for Haunted Castle to be a no-brainer.

Maybe the "not having brains" part is what the other topdecking attacks share in common with Bureaucrat. It's quite fittingly also a no-brainer to go for, after all, it's one of the strongest cards in all of Dominion.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2016, 03:48:21 pm »
0

The Haunted Castle, to me, looks like a cross between the older Castlevania castles and the King's Quest II Dracula's castle.

So I'm pretty sure there's a vampire inside.

Named Dracula.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2016, 03:59:53 pm »
0

Having Wolf Den in a kingdom makes Castles much less attractive. Pairing them with other cards that like variety (Menagerie, Fairgrounds, etc.) would make for an interesting setup.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2016, 04:04:00 pm »
0

Buying all 8 Castles (2 player game) is worth 41 points, NOT counting the Duchy and the 1 vp for on-gain bonuses, or the variable vp for the other on-gain bonus. So just 1 point shy of all 8 Provinces, and way less total cost ($52 instead of $64, plus you only need to hit $8+ 3 times).

Yes, but you're taking the risk that you won't get all of the Castles.  If your opponent snipes just the King's Castle, then you've paid $42 for 24 VP (plus bonuses) in seven cards, which is not nearly as compelling.

Castles really shine in 3P, though; there are a lot more points up for grabs.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2016, 04:05:54 pm »
+7

Disappointed there is no Swamp Castle.  Or a Howl's Moving Castle.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2016, 04:07:25 pm »
0

Maybe the bidding card is a Real Estate Auction Event, which let's you bid on Castles~
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2016, 04:14:37 pm »
+1

I can think of one (albeit very specific) scenario where Haunted Castle could cause a problem with you gaining it on your opponents turn. Your opponent plays Governer and selects the remodel option. They trash a Cultist to gain a 7 cost card. You trash a 5 cost card and gain Haunted Castle.

If your opponent has 5 or more cards in their hand they have two instructions that contradict each other.
- Draw 3 cards
- Put 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2016, 04:20:32 pm »
+1

Well, this is one way to do the fabled Victory Card that counts itself. Cool! It's going to be hard to wrap your head around this. I wonder how often you want to keep them all.

Castle-mon! Gotta collect em all.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2016, 04:21:06 pm »
+4

I think this is my favourite card (pile) seen so far.

Donald had said that during the making of Guilds he was having trouble coming up with another idea for a Victory card. Seems like it was more that he was having trouble coming up with another idea for a Victory card.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 04:22:16 pm by markusin »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2016, 04:31:37 pm »
+1

Can't believe this hasn't been said yet:

This combos with scout!


Sorry Chris Is Me, I can't read.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 04:39:10 pm by liopoil »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2016, 04:32:39 pm »
0

Buying all 8 Castles (2 player game) is worth 41 points, NOT counting the Duchy and the 1 vp for on-gain bonuses, or the variable vp for the other on-gain bonus. So just 1 point shy of all 8 Provinces, and way less total cost ($52 instead of $64, plus you only need to hit $8+ 3 times).

Yes, but you're taking the risk that you won't get all of the Castles.  If your opponent snipes just the King's Castle, then you've paid $42 for 24 VP (plus bonuses) in seven cards, which is not nearly as compelling.

Castles really shine in 3P, though; there are a lot more points up for grabs.

Yeah, just like Dukes, the the pile as a whole is worth a lot less if you split the Castles (or the Duchies) evenly.
Also, I suppose you (Gendo) counted the points with untrashed Crumbling and Small Castles?

All in all, I doubt these will be an alternative main source of vp like Dukes, Fairgrounds, Vineyards and family can be.
I think they'll be more like a tactical battle ground, where you can try and gain an edge over your opponents. While the potential for scoring big points is there, your opponent really needs to be kind to let you get away with the full pot.

I like how these will "give out roles" to the players: one will have the Humble Castle, the others will be the contenders.

The art, it is beautiful.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2016, 04:34:15 pm »
+13

Can't believe this hasn't been said yet:

This combos with scout!

There's only one sure way to know something's already been said before in a thread, and that's if someone says "can't believe this hasn't been said yet".
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2016, 04:43:41 pm »
+47

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2016, 04:49:30 pm »
+1

Damn, that's good interneting. 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2016, 04:53:17 pm »
+3

All in all, I doubt these will be an alternative main source of vp like Dukes, Fairgrounds, Vineyards and family can be.

In 3P, they definitely can be; at a minimum, it's a forcing tactic.  Running the Castle stack in 3P is 94 98(Math.  It's hard.)VP without bonuses.  Someone's going to make a play for them, and at least one of the other players has to fight them for it, or they probably win.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 08:25:47 pm by Elestan »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2016, 04:55:05 pm »
+2

I can think of one (albeit very specific) scenario where Haunted Castle could cause a problem with you gaining it on your opponents turn. Your opponent plays Governer and selects the remodel option. They trash a Cultist to gain a 7 cost card. You trash a 5 cost card and gain Haunted Castle.

If your opponent has 5 or more cards in their hand they have two instructions that contradict each other.
- Draw 3 cards
- Put 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.

The general rule is if multiple things happen at the same time, you can choose the order to do them. Either put the cards back first, then draw them, or draw then put cards back.

--edit--
Though thinking about it, Governor effects happen in turn order, so those effects don't happen at the same time.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 04:58:16 pm by Destry »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2016, 05:04:05 pm »
+2

P1 remodels first and then p2 remodels
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2016, 05:55:09 pm »
0

RR must be peeing his pants. An actual good strategy with Scout!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2016, 06:10:54 pm »
+4

Pretty sure you still don't want a scout most times when you're collecting castles.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2016, 06:23:19 pm »
+5

It would be hilarious to "pump" a Small Castle using a trasher and Rogue/Graverobber repeatedly to collect increasingly valuable Castles.

But then there are so, so many things this lot synergises with in one way or another. Woah!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2016, 07:06:35 pm »
+1



If I worked it out correctly, if you get all the castles you get
(12x2)+2+(2x2)+2+(3x2)+7+5+(24x2)= 98 points
(minimum, you will probably get more with the grand castle)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2016, 07:08:38 pm »
0

I can think of one (albeit very specific) scenario where Haunted Castle could cause a problem with you gaining it on your opponents turn. Your opponent plays Governer and selects the remodel option. They trash a Cultist to gain a 7 cost card. You trash a 5 cost card and gain Haunted Castle.

If your opponent has 5 or more cards in their hand they have two instructions that contradict each other.
- Draw 3 cards
- Put 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.

The general rule is if multiple things happen at the same time, you can choose the order to do them. Either put the cards back first, then draw them, or draw then put cards back.

--edit--
Though thinking about it, Governor effects happen in turn order, so those effects don't happen at the same time.

Yep.  And Governor rules specify that you start with the one who played it, so your opponent would trash Cultist, draw 3 cards and gain a $7 before you even choose what to trash.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2016, 07:40:59 pm »
0

It would take quite the deck to still afford $10 after stuffing 8 green cards into it.  It seems more realistic to trash a few with Small Castle or to split the pile.

I have no idea what the correct strategy is in a split.  Is there a penultimate castle rule?  Which are the key cards?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2016, 08:27:50 pm »
+2

It would take quite the deck to still afford $10 after stuffing 8 green cards into it

Not with an Opulent Castle.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2016, 08:33:51 pm »
0

I think that with castles, as with most alt-VP, there will be specific enablers. Candlestick maker seems like a good addition. The +Buy can let you pick up several of them. The coin tokens can smooth out the buying, hitting 10 is a lot easier with a few tokens lying around.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2016, 09:53:18 pm »
+1

Can one buy a ferry and put the -$2 coin token on this pile when either of the action/castles are the pile on top?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2016, 10:13:23 pm »
0

It would take quite the deck to still afford $10 after stuffing 8 green cards into it

Not with an Opulent Castle.

Also, only 7. Also, only if uncontested.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2016, 10:23:40 pm »
+6

Can one buy a ferry and put the -$2 coin token on this pile when either of the action/castles are the pile on top?

No. The pile type is decided by the Randomizer which states Victory-Castle.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2016, 11:21:44 pm »
0

Man, on a lackluster board, it might be Castle BM. Awesome.

Castle is even more insane with Fairgrounds.

I want to see Vineyards with a weak engine versus Castles.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2016, 11:45:15 pm »
0

The point was made in yesterday's discussion about Landmarks that it felt similar to Kingdom Builder, where you use Kingdom Builder cards that sit next to the playing area. Like Landmarks, these provide different ways to score victory points either during or at the end of the game.

Now we have Castles in Dominion. In Kingdom Builder, you have location hexes called Castles that allow you to score extra victory points if you build a settlement adjacent to a castle.

It feels like either a Dominion/Kingdom Builder crossover, or the two decided to have a baby and name it Empires. 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2016, 12:59:59 am »
+1

The Haunted Castle, to me, looks like a cross between the older Castlevania castles

First thing that came to mind for me, too.

While, like others have said, it's nice that it keeps the haunted/top-decking theme, I was looking forward to it doling out Curses so I could say, "What a horrible night to have a curse!" every time it went off.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2016, 01:05:25 am »
0

The Haunted Castle, to me, looks like a cross between the older Castlevania castles

First thing that came to mind for me, too.

While, like others have said, it's nice that it keeps the haunted/top-decking theme, I was looking forward to it doling out Curses so I could say, "What a horrible night to have a curse!" every time it went off.

Oh man, I've got friends who already say that all the time.

Welcome to the forum!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2016, 03:27:22 am »
+1

Question for people who've seen the Empires rulebook: Am I allowed to peek at the next Castle card?  I know I'm not allowed to do that with Ruins.

(use case: 3p game, Stonemason's out, and I've lost track of whether there's one or two Small Castles on top)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2016, 03:51:50 am »
+5

Question for people who've seen the Empires rulebook: Am I allowed to peek at the next Castle card?  I know I'm not allowed to do that with Ruins.
Yes, you can look through the Castles or split piles.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2016, 04:28:41 am »
0

Am I allowed to peek at the next Castle card?  I know I'm not allowed to do that with Ruins.
Ruins are shuffled, Castles are ordered by costs.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2016, 04:34:50 am »
+1

I walked past a Castles game when I was taking a break from a game day with a couple of playtesters and I only got to see that it was a "variation pile" before they were all like "NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KNOW WHAT THESE DO IF YOU ARE NOT PLAYING." So it's nice to finally know what I missed.

I mean, as a concept, I love it. In practice, probably not so much? Castles seem to have the disadvantage of forcing you to decide on a very specific strategy before you make your first buy of the game (and I know there are a lot of cards like that, but Empires seems to be throwing more in than usual). As someone who's lost way too many games either not reacting to their opponent's strategy enough or not compensating for far-from-ideal shuffle luck, I can't help but get nervous when I go into a strategy blind. This should be my cue to suck it up, but that isn't as easy as it sounds. It doesn't help either that Castle-friendly boards will probably be much harder to spot than, say, Gardens- or Vineyard-friendly ones. Leaving this up to you guys.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2016, 05:40:57 am »
+1

You can't really ignore Castles. The question really is at what point in the game do you go for them, or at least contest them as to prevent your opponent from outright winning. I think 2P Castle games will very much play out like a game of chicken, especially because of the existence of Small Castle being present, allowing for the possibility of the opposing player to snipe bigger Castles.

By the way, I'm pretty sure Small Castle is the strongest Castle out of all of them. That's the one you want to get whether you are going for a Castle strategy or not.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2016, 06:02:00 am »
0

It doesn't help either that Castle-friendly boards will probably be much harder to spot than, say, Gardens- or Vineyard-friendly ones.

How so? Given the pile is packed with a lot more variety, and therefore they need a variety of supporting cards?

I think that King's Castle getting sniped is the biggest worry with this strategy, and therefore preventing that is going to be the toughest task.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2016, 08:08:00 am »
+2

I think I wouldn't like a lot of the things in this expansion in 3+ player games. Good thing I don't play those anyway.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2016, 10:27:51 am »
+1

Does the Castle randomizer reflect the cost of Humble Castle (the split pile preview said the randomizer "usually" follows the top card), making all of these suitable as Banes?

Yep!

Does this also mean this is a Treasure pile, and not an Action pile?
That would mean the only token you can get on it is the +buy token.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2016, 10:39:03 am »
0

I think that King's Castle getting sniped is the biggest worry with this strategy, and therefore preventing that is going to be the toughest task.

You want to make sure your opponent is in Debt, or bogged down by Attacks, before taking Grand Castle.  Or try to take Grand and King's at the same time.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2016, 10:41:48 am »
+1

Does the Castle randomizer reflect the cost of Humble Castle (the split pile preview said the randomizer "usually" follows the top card), making all of these suitable as Banes?

Yep!

Does this also mean this is a Treasure pile, and not an Action pile?
That would mean the only token you can get on it is the +buy token.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2016, 10:45:26 am »
0

Well, you can play 3/8, or 6/12 in a 3p+ game.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2016, 11:15:02 am »
0

Does the Castle randomizer reflect the cost of Humble Castle (the split pile preview said the randomizer "usually" follows the top card), making all of these suitable as Banes?

Yep!

Does this also mean this is a Treasure pile, and not an Action pile?
That would mean the only token you can get on it is the +buy token.

No, it was said earlier that the randomizer just says Victory-Castle. But also, how would you get the +buy token on a treasure?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2016, 11:19:11 am »
+6

Seaway doesn't specify a pile type, you can gain one of the Action - Castles with it after reducing the cost.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 11:25:39 am by Watno »
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2016, 12:12:49 pm »
0

Hmm. It occurs to me that games with both Rebuild and Castles would be pretty brief and wild. And there'd only really be one strategy in town...
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Triumph44

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2016, 12:13:38 pm »
+1

I walked past a Castles game when I was taking a break from a game day with a couple of playtesters and I only got to see that it was a "variation pile" before they were all like "NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KNOW WHAT THESE DO IF YOU ARE NOT PLAYING." So it's nice to finally know what I missed.

I mean, as a concept, I love it. In practice, probably not so much? Castles seem to have the disadvantage of forcing you to decide on a very specific strategy before you make your first buy of the game (and I know there are a lot of cards like that, but Empires seems to be throwing more in than usual). As someone who's lost way too many games either not reacting to their opponent's strategy enough or not compensating for far-from-ideal shuffle luck, I can't help but get nervous when I go into a strategy blind. This should be my cue to suck it up, but that isn't as easy as it sounds. It doesn't help either that Castle-friendly boards will probably be much harder to spot than, say, Gardens- or Vineyard-friendly ones. Leaving this up to you guys.

None of the Castles seem to be way worse than the other VP options at their price point besides the King's Castle if you have no other Castles.  If your opponent somehow has made it clear that he or she is going 'heavy Castles', it doesn't seem hard to break up that strategy by buying your own Castles.  The difficulty would seem to be in rare games where one person goes Big Money variant hoping to win the game quickly and one player goes for a huge, difficult to assemble engine that intends to clear the Castle pile in one turn.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2016, 12:18:31 pm »
0

Hmm. It occurs to me that games with both Rebuild and Castles would be pretty brief and wild. And there'd only really be one strategy in town...

You mean the same strategy as in many Rebuild games without castles? I don't see much of a reason to go for Castles with Rebuild
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2016, 12:23:24 pm »
0

Hmm. It occurs to me that games with both Rebuild and Castles would be pretty brief and wild. And there'd only really be one strategy in town...

Games with just Rebuild are brief anyway. But Rebuild-Castles seems like a bad idea to me because you'd be trashing Castles you want to keep.   Also, many of the Castle-to-Castle jumps would be only 1VP increase.
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Triumph44

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2016, 12:25:45 pm »
0

Hmm. It occurs to me that games with both Rebuild and Castles would be pretty brief and wild. And there'd only really be one strategy in town...

Granted I am terrible at Rebuild but I'm not so sure how good Rebuild would be with Castles.  You can't protect more than one of your Castles when you name a card.  The Sprawling Estate looks really good with Rebuild as does the Small Castle, but the gaps in Castle costs will cause a problem as the pile runs, and the King's Castle is less appealing as you smash your Castles into other ones.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2016, 12:39:31 pm »
0

The main problem is that getting all the Castles with Rebuild doesn't end the game.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2016, 12:43:18 pm »
0

I'm thinking that firstly it's pretty rare for some other strategy to be better when Rebuild is on the table.

Beyond that, if one person starts going for Castles, other people need to as well. Yes, you can only name one card when playing Rebuild, but you do know what's still in your deck, if you're careful.

You could Rebuild stuff into Castles, Castles into other stuff, and I'm not sure Castles into Castles would be especially infrequent either, if multiple people were buying them.

Hey, in a few weeks' time, I can try it and see what happens. (-8
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2016, 01:22:49 pm »
0

Beyond that, if one person starts going for Castles, other people need to as well. Yes, you can only name one card when playing Rebuild, but you do know what's still in your deck, if you're careful.

Yes, by deck tracking you can know what's in your deck.  This is still not going to assure you of hitting a card or not hitting a card.  You can give yourself better chances.  But with all the reshuffling you do in Rebuild games you can get yourself into difficult spots.

Quote
You could Rebuild stuff into Castles, Castles into other stuff, and I'm not sure Castles into Castles would be especially infrequent either, if multiple people were buying them.

The Castles are largely predicated on getting a lot of them.  The Small Castle is the best one to get as you can smash it and get a Province and a Castle out of it, but I'm pretty sure I would switch off Castles once I got the Small Castle in a Rebuild deck.  If you get the bigger Castles, you can't prevent yourself from smashing all of them, and unless it's a Colony game you have to turn them into Provinces which isn't much of an upgrade (and indeed could be a downgrade in some cases). 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2016, 01:40:11 pm »
0

The Small Castle is the best one to get as you can smash it and get a Province and a Castle out of it
You can't. You only get a Castle when you trash Small Castle with its action.
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Triumph44

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2016, 01:49:14 pm »
0

The Small Castle is the best one to get as you can smash it and get a Province and a Castle out of it
You can't. You only get a Castle when you trash Small Castle with its action.

Oh, oops.  Missed that.   Yeah, then I probably would avoid Castles entirely in a Rebuild strategy, if I could.  I guess I probably can't, but I'd only get one or two.
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math

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2016, 01:53:59 pm »
+2

Crumbling Castle might be worth it in a Rebuild game, since it gives you an on-trash benefit.  The problem is that you can't buy Humble Castle, since that would let your opponent buy the Crumbling Castle.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2016, 02:02:43 pm »
0

I think I wouldn't like a lot of the things in this expansion in 3+ player games. Good thing I don't play those anyway.
I play mostly 4-player games, sometimes 3-player, and there are certainly some features of this expansion that I suspect I'm going to find unsatisfactory in those games.  My two worries are (a) the potential significance of seating order when Temple or Farming Village are in the game and (b) the complexity of scoring as a consequence of some of the Landmarks, e.g. the one that gives 2VP for having the most, or joint most, of a card (Battlefield?).  There are, however, plenty of things about this expansion that I'm looking forward to, so if as a group we finish up excluding a couple of kingdom cards and a few Landmarks from our games, that's not a big issue.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2016, 03:28:47 pm »
0

Crumbling Castle might be worth it in a Rebuild game, since it gives you an on-trash benefit.  The problem is that you can't buy Humble Castle, since that would let your opponent buy the Crumbling Castle.

Well, in a rebuild game it shouldn't be too hard to hit 4 after you Rebuild an Estate.
But suspect you want the Duchy in most of those situations. 2 free vp's are probably not worth the risk of losing the Duchy split.
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math

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2016, 04:08:50 pm »
+1

Crumbling Castle might be worth it in a Rebuild game, since it gives you an on-trash benefit.  The problem is that you can't buy Humble Castle, since that would let your opponent buy the Crumbling Castle.

Well, in a rebuild game it shouldn't be too hard to hit 4 after you Rebuild an Estate.
But suspect you want the Duchy in most of those situations. 2 free vp's are probably not worth the risk of losing the Duchy split.

Well, the Duchy split won't matter; you can Rebuild them into bigger Castles, and then into Provinces.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2016, 05:50:25 pm »
0

Castle Rebuild will possibly be a thing past the $4 Castle.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2016, 06:11:49 pm »
0

Crumbling Castle might be worth it in a Rebuild game, since it gives you an on-trash benefit.  The problem is that you can't buy Humble Castle, since that would let your opponent buy the Crumbling Castle.

Well, in a rebuild game it shouldn't be too hard to hit 4 after you Rebuild an Estate.
But suspect you want the Duchy in most of those situations. 2 free vp's are probably not worth the risk of losing the Duchy split.

Well, the Duchy split won't matter; you can Rebuild them into bigger Castles, and then into Provinces.

But that's one extra use of Rebuild, and those are going to be scarce, even with alternative stepping stones other than Duchies. It still doesn't seem to be worth it for 2vp's and a couple of Silvers.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2016, 03:07:56 am »
0

I don't like cards where it's either: Everyone should buy them or no one should buy them, like Knights.

If no one starts buying them, there isn't much of an incentive to get one. But if your opponent goes for them, you're pretty much forced to fight them just to deny them some Castles.

With Knights, the next card in the pile may be better, may be worse, you don't know, so you can just gamble and get the top one anyway.
Here, you know that the next Castle will actually be better, so the best strategy is to wait, but your opponent is also waiting and in the end, no one buys them.

My fear is that it will be a waste of a kingdom slot more often than not.

I'd love to hear some playtesting comments about this. However it would suck if playtesters just endlessly spoiled the journey of discovery for everyone on all of the new cards, really when you think about it would make it just plain bad to have previews at all, so no, no playtesters will be speaking up, shucks.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 03:58:13 am by Donald X. »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2016, 03:09:27 am »
+3

Really random thought - I wonder if I've visited a chateau in France that fits every castle description. My parents and I did some touristing in the Loire valley and the Acquitaine, so I got to go to the crumbling castle of Chinon, the sprawling castle of Chambord, a humble castle owned by a private family with records showing the owners for the last thousand years...
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #105 on: May 15, 2016, 04:07:15 am »
+5

I'd love to hear some playtesting comments about this. However it would suck if playtesters just endlessly spoiled the journey of discovery for everyone on all of the new cards, really when you think about it would make it just plain bad to have previews at all, so no, no playtesters will be speaking up, shucks.
I see what you're saying, really that makes a lot of sense. Especially the part in red that I added.

At the very beginning, in 2008, Valerie spoke up about Chapel. Between then and Adventures, no playtesters spoke up about anything ever. Everyone had to figure out the cards for themselves, or of course wait for other non-playtester people to figure them out. I believe strongly that that was more fun for everyone.

I recruited playtesters from dominionstrategy because that's where the players were. Most of them have been nicely tight-lipped and well I will be pursuing stricter assurances there in the future.

For sure some people will hate some of the cards, there's no way around that. Some groups will play with some cards but never buy others. Just assume that everything you don't like probably sucks even harder than you imagine; I don't mind. It's not something for playtesters to tell you though.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2016, 04:38:22 am »
0

I don't like cards where it's either: Everyone should buy them or no one should buy them, like Knights.

If no one starts buying them, there isn't much of an incentive to get one. But if your opponent goes for them, you're pretty much forced to fight them just to deny them some Castles.

With Knights, the next card in the pile may be better, may be worse, you don't know, so you can just gamble and get the top one anyway.
Here, you know that the next Castle will actually be better, so the best strategy is to wait, but your opponent is also waiting and in the end, no one buys them.

My fear is that it will be a waste of a kingdom slot more often than not.

I'd love to hear some playtesting comments about this. However it would suck if playtesters just endlessly spoiled the journey of discovery for everyone on all of the new cards, really when you think about it would make it just plain bad to have previews at all, so no, no playtesters will be speaking up, shucks.

I am not a playtester, but on first glance the fact that the first Castle is worth 1 per castle you have might actually be an incentive to buy the first Castle and hope to get more later on, especially the last two.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2016, 04:48:45 am »
0

Most of them have been nicely tight-lipped and well I will be pursuing stricter assurances there in the future.

So what does your ideal preview look like? Will you make a template for folks to follow in the future?

I liked how LFN revealed this pile: hinted at strategies, but didn't bludgeon us with an essay. It let the forum deconstruct the cards themselves, and ponder about their interactions, whilst remaining in the dark because of a lack of actual playing experience with the cards at hand. Almost like some sort of view of the cards, before actually getting our grubby mitts on them.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2016, 05:01:46 am »
0

Oh I love the journey, I mentioned this already.

I just hope that split piles will be worth it to add to a Kingdom in randomly generated games. I guess this and the VP card landmark is already an incentive. And a lot of other Empires stuff might care about them.

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Mr Anderson

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2016, 05:04:13 am »
+1

And Donald X is a genius, so I am sure they will be worth it. They can't all be the best card ever, but they can't all be Scout either.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2016, 05:24:55 am »
0

Well Scout does seem to get a boost with Empires. Lots of incentive to grab VP cards.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2016, 05:55:00 am »
+3

In the Secret History we'll learn this expansion was made specifically to make Scout a good card. :o
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 05:57:57 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2016, 06:06:25 am »
+2

In the Secret History we'll learn this expansion was made specifically to make Scott a good card. :o
Scott's got to be feeling like the prettiest girl at the ball right about now.

I just hope that split piles will be worth it to add to a Kingdom in randomly generated games.
Catapult looks like it's going to be fun no matter what it's added to; Gladiator has good functionality and the pay-off on Fortune is something that, no matter how ridiculous it seems, is always going to be gnawing at you whatever Kingdom it appears in; and I'll be completely honest I haven't given Bustling Catanners much consideration yet...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2016, 08:05:04 am »
+1

In the Secret History we'll learn this expansion was made specifically to make Scott a good card. :o

Well, I'm not sure. Scott loves Action-Victory, but he doesn't really work well with vp tokens...
And anyway, I think that if Nobles-Scout isn't great (and it isn't), then not much is going to work anyway.  :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2016, 12:31:22 pm »
+5

So what does your ideal preview look like? Will you make a template for folks to follow in the future?
The previews aren't the issue; I just don't want playtesters to feel like they can talk about the cards. Really, even to reassure people.

In retrospect I will be nixing previews like Adam's, which I could have in advance but didn't. It was fine when WW, who hadn't played with any cards, endlessly analyzed a card last time. Adam played with the cards and well it just feels anti-fun to me to hear him say, this is what happened in those games.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2016, 12:35:09 pm »
+4

I can understand that,  it's much more fun to let us rave against jack of all trades and snicker in a corner.  ::)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2016, 01:50:22 pm »
+7

Fun little fact: Humble Castle on its own (no other Castles) is the infamous "Half Harem" fan card that often gets suggested despite being a pretty awful card. Obviously this doesn't have the same issues that card has, though.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2016, 02:14:31 pm »
+5

Fun little fact: Humble Castle on its own (no other Castles) is the infamous "Half Harem" fan card that often gets suggested despite being a pretty awful card. Obviously this doesn't have the same issues that card has, though.
Humble Castle has way better art than Harem.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2016, 08:10:28 pm »
+3

Disappointed there is no Swamp Castle.  Or a Howl's Moving Castle.
I'd love a Takeshi's Castle, or a Dontgonearthe Castle.

brb, going to RBCI.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2016, 08:30:22 pm »
+2

Wait for Dominion Legacy.

In that, you'll get to use a Sharpie and name the Castle the first time you buy it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2016, 04:13:30 am »
0

I'd love a Takeshi's Castle

Takeshi's Castle
Action - Duration - Victory Card ($11)


15VP

When you gain this, put it into play.

For the rest of the game, at the start of each other player's turn, that player may attempt to cross the living-room/game store floor by running atop a series of giant foam dominoes while armed with only a water pistol.

If they make it to the door, they gain control of this card and put it into play immediately.

Setup: replace the floorboards or carpet with rats.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2016, 05:43:58 am »
0

I like the general idea of this. Humble Castle could be problematic though as you could buy it in order to disincentivze other players from going for a Castle strategy. Then again the opportunity costs could be high enough to not make this worthwile.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2016, 09:46:07 am »
+4

Setup: replace the floorboards or carpet with rats.

Talk about an annoying card to have in the Black Market deck. All that work and you probably don't even see the card.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2016, 11:11:41 am »
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Rules question: With Black Market, can only 1 Castle be in the deck? And how do you choose which one?
Same question for the split piles,  can you have either of the cards in the BM deck, and how would you choose it?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2016, 11:27:17 am »
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Rules question: With Black Market, can only 1 Castle be in the deck? And how do you choose which one?
Same question for the split piles,  can you have either of the cards in the BM deck, and how would you choose it?

I believe Donald's ruling for this so far has been: do what you want. Which is a fine ruling, I think.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 11:29:44 am by LastFootnote »
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2016, 12:30:21 pm »
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Rules question: With Black Market, can only 1 Castle be in the deck? And how do you choose which one?
Same question for the split piles,  can you have either of the cards in the BM deck, and how would you choose it?

I believe Donald's ruling for this so far has been: do what you want. Which is a fine ruling, I think.

What I envision Black Market doing is creating a Black Market supply.  For each card in the Black Market deck, there is a pile in the Black Market supply that is set up just as it would have been in the real supply.  So, for example, if Castles were in the Black Market supply, Humble Castle would be on top just like in the real supply.  Since each pile in the Black Market supply can be accessed only once, the top card (Humble Castle) is the only one that can ever be purchased.

Of course, that's just my logic for figuring out how I would want to handle this in my IRL games.  Until this question is answered by the online version, I guess anything goes.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2016, 02:02:45 pm »
+1

Rules question: With Black Market, can only 1 Castle be in the deck? And how do you choose which one?
Same question for the split piles,  can you have either of the cards in the BM deck, and how would you choose it?
This is why BM is a promo card; but somehow in Dominion promo cards get treated the same as actual cards. This is perfectly fine for Envoy and Walled Village, but not so much for BM.

So the ruling of "do whatever you want" seems fine to me.
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tim17

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2016, 03:17:30 pm »
+1

Remodel Haunted Castle into a province, then graverobber it back to attack everyone again.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2016, 03:47:15 pm »
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Seaway doesn't specify a pile type, you can gain one of the Action - Castles with it after reducing the cost.

Oh interesting; I wouldn't have noticed the difference between Seaway and the others in the way they restrict the token to an action. I suppose because before now, it never mattered. So yes, Buy would be the only one of the tokens you can put on Castles, but the statement about it being a "treasure" pile was wrong.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2016, 05:11:54 pm »
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Rules question: With Black Market, can only 1 Castle be in the deck? And how do you choose which one?
Same question for the split piles,  can you have either of the cards in the BM deck, and how would you choose it?
This is why BM is a promo card; but somehow in Dominion promo cards get treated the same as actual cards. This is perfectly fine for Envoy and Walled Village, but not so much for BM.

So the ruling of "do whatever you want" seems fine to me.

"Whatever I want", for me, involves putting in one of the 8 Castles in there randomly.  Also, only 1 card from each split pile, also random.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2016, 06:10:08 pm »
+8

"Whatever I want", for me, involves putting in one of the 8 Castles in there randomly.  Also, only 1 card from each split pile, also random.
Dude. You could play a game where the Black Market deck was all of the Castles, all of the Knights, and one card from each half of each split pile.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2016, 06:49:59 pm »
+1

I probably wouldn't put the bottom half card of a split pile into the Black Market; because it just feels like those cards shouldn't be available until the top half has been gained (or trashed).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #5: Castles
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2016, 07:19:51 pm »
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"Whatever I want", for me, involves putting in one of the 8 Castles in there randomly.  Also, only 1 card from each split pile, also random.
Dude. You could play a game where the Black Market deck was all of the Castles, all of the Knights, and one card from each half of each split pile.

I'm aware.  And last time I checked, your ruling was "whatever I want".  :P
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